Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Grinning Soul]

I half-disagree with that. She had actual backstory, character flaws, and an arc in Dark Phoenix.

But her backstory was there simply to motivate how the movies would approach Dark Phoenix. Her whole arc in both trilogies was, again, about Dark Phoenix and that’s not even the problem. For me, the problem is that it doesn’t feel character-driven, but threat-driven.

Anyway, like I said, I have actual reasons to dislike the movies, but I dislike them so much I find it hard to talk about them in a neutral way and I really don’t want to ruin them for people who like them, so I prefer not to comment much about them in public.

I totally agree with you. I have a certain childlike nostalgia for the first 2 Singer films, even though he's a creep and a predator, but everything from X3 - New Mutants is virtually unwatchable for me. DoFP was okay.

I’m probably older than you so I have no childlike nostalgia for the X-films. I do understand what you mean, though. I feel like that when it comes to other franchises such as Star Wars. As a kid, every time those films were on TV (like I said, I’m old) I’d watch them. At first, I didn’t even understand the concept that the heroes were the rebels (rebels sounded like the bad guys to me), but I loved those films nevertheless. :)

For me personally the concept of the Phoenix though cannon in comics is too alien to fit even a trilogy of films.An entity like that needs to be developed in its own right just as much as characters in film with simple human trials and travails..So personally if I were a screenwriter and my focus was Jean's development as an individual character,I wouldn't bring the Phoenix concept up at all! Let her develop as a character purely in human terms no need to go from 0 to 100 with cosmic entities.Sure if phase 4 for example has Phoenix as some big force in the ultimate conclusion to all the films ,maybe you can build it up from various viewpoints to give it a larger than life feel but through Jean or the X-Men alone,I personally wouldn't bother.

Exactly. The X-Men are hard to adapt. While a series format would work better for the character development that you need to have prior to tell some stories, they’re just too big for the budget of a TV series.

I once told Hizashi about how I’d ideally adapt them. But when I say “ideally” I mean it literally. I don’t think it’s actually feasible in reality. But basically, I'd cast competent but completely unknown actors so they’d be up to dedicate a good 10 years of their lives for no other project than the X-Men.

Then I’d have several teams working in tandem to write, film and edit the films, so it'd be possible to release 1 film per year.

It’s too ambitious and insane. I know. No need to tell me. :P

[Rev9]

That's a bit hard to do. But my point is: if Jean didn't need the force to manifest the aura in the comics, why would she in the movie? Especially, when that rule has never been established in the fines.

Gray's point is the movies cater to both comic book fans as well as non comic book fans.In film with your background knowledge of comic lore, it makes no fuss and makes sense, but to a person with no comic knowledge ,it makes no sense especially since the Phoenix is not even mentioned as the catalyst for Apocalypse's defeat but in Dark Phoenix it is an extra terrestrial entity.The two films have absolutely no connection to a non comic book(conversant) fan.

[Gray Lensman]

But her backstory was there simply to motivate how the movies would approach Dark Phoenix. Her whole arc in both trilogies was, again, about Dark Phoenix and that’s not even the problem. For me, the problem is that it doesn’t feel character-driven, but threat-driven.

Anyway, like I said, I have actual reasons to dislike the movies, but I dislike them so much I find it hard to talk about them in a neutral way and I really don’t want to ruin them for people who like them, so I prefer not to comment much about them in public.



I’m probably older than you so I have no childlike nostalgia for the X-films. I do understand what you mean, though. I feel like that when it comes to other franchises such as Star Wars. As a kid, every time those films were on TV (like I said, I’m old) I’d watch them. At first, I didn’t even understand the concept that the heroes were the rebels (rebels sounded like the bad guys to me), but I loved those films nevertheless.



Exactly. The X-Men are hard to adapt. While a series format would work better for the character development that you need to have prior to tell some stories, they’re just too big for the budget of a TV series.

I once told Hizashi about how I’d ideally adapt them. But when I say “ideally” I mean it literally. I don’t think it’s actually feasible in reality. But basically, I'd cast competent but completely unknown actors so they’d be up to dedicate a good 10 years of their lives for no other project than the X-Men.

Then I’d have several teams working in tandem to write, film and edit the films, so it'd be possible to release 1 film per year.

It’s too ambitious and insane. I know. No need to tell me. :P

I'd go for an 8 to 10 season commitment on a Disney Plus show - 10 episodes of 45 to 75 minutes each depending on the story for that week, maybe even 12 or more episodes as the ball gets rolling. The X-Men, more than any other property, would benefit from the longer structure of a prestige show.

I'd also force the actor for Cyclops to do his screen test in dark sunglasses to see how well he can convey emotions without having the benefit of his eyes, and if there are plans for any romantic pairings then the actors should also do secondary screen tests together.

Scott and Jean had no chemistry in the films, not compared to Jean and Logan. And if you want to convey a love triangle, both possible pairings need to sizzle, not just one.

[WallStreeter]

But her backstory was there simply to motivate how the movies would approach Dark Phoenix. Her whole arc in both trilogies was, again, about Dark Phoenix and that’s not even the problem. For me, the problem is that it doesn’t feel character-driven, but threat-driven.

Anyway, like I said, I have actual reasons to dislike the movies, but I dislike them so much I find it hard to talk about them in a neutral way and I really don’t want to ruin them for people who like them, so I prefer not to comment much about them in public.





Exactly. The X-Men are hard to adapt. While a series format would work better for the character development that you need to have prior to tell some stories, they’re just too big for the budget of a TV series.

I once told Hizashi about how I’d ideally adapt them. But when I say “ideally” I mean it literally. I don’t think it’s actually feasible in reality. But basically, I'd cast competent but completely unknown actors so they’d be up to dedicate a good 10 years of their lives for no other project than the X-Men.

Then I’d have several teams working in tandem to write, film and edit the films, so it'd be possible to release 1 film per year.

It’s too ambitious and insane. I know. No need to tell me. :P

You can do whatever you want about the films. It’s not going to effect whether other people like them or not. It’s perfectly okay to dislike the films as much as you want or like something else as much as you want.

[Grinning Soul]

I'd go for an 8 to 10 season commitment on a Disney Plus show - 10 episodes of 45 to 75 minutes each depending on the story for that week, maybe even 12 or more episodes as the ball gets rolling. The X-Men, more than any other property, would benefit from the longer structure of a prestige show.

I'd also force the actor for Cyclops to do his screen test in dark sunglasses to see how well he can convey emotions without having the benefit of his eyes, and if there are plans for any romantic pairings then the actors should also do secondary screen tests together.

Scott and Jean had no chemistry in the films, not compared to Jean and Logan. And if you want to convey a love triangle, both possible pairings need to sizzle, not just one.

Casting both Scott and Jean will be a nightmare. And yes, they should have lots of chemistry together if they're going to be a couple. But, please, no love triangle.

For Scott, in particular, more than glasses, I'd have a silent audition for the actor playing him. I want him to have that seriousness and goal-oriented attitude exuding from his pores and it needs to look natural, not acted. I want him to be able to convey those concealed, strong emotions he's known for by his fans. I want him to be able to look commanding by his body expression alone, when he's in his uniform. And to have a disarming, unexpected, tiny crooked smile that appears on rare occasions. On top of that, he needs to have a killer voice.

For Jean, I need a actress that is drop-dead pretty, but even more important, one that has an effortless class, dignity and warmth to her every movement. She needs to be eloquent, soft-spoken and instantly like-able and charismatic. She also needs to have a humongous range of emotions for her acting, because she needs to be able to portray that inner light and that deep-rooted darkness just as well. And she needs to be terrifying without any extra make-up or special effects when she's portraying anger.

[Rev9]

I'd go for an 8 to 10 season commitment on a Disney Plus show - 10 episodes of 45 to 75 minutes each depending on the story for that week, maybe even 12 or more episodes as the ball gets rolling. The X-Men, more than any other property, would benefit from the longer structure of a prestige show.

I'd also force the actor for Cyclops to do his screen test in dark sunglasses to see how well he can convey emotions without having the benefit of his eyes, and if there are plans for any romantic pairings then the actors should also do secondary screen tests together.

Scott and Jean had no chemistry in the films, not compared to Jean and Logan. And if you want to convey a love triangle, both possible pairings need to sizzle, not just one.

Have to agree on Scott and Jean having no chemistry(and by that I mean first trilogy), though I don't put it down to the actors.It was the silly script. Cyclops had nothing to do except always giving Logan attitude and acting insecure. Scott should have been shown as leader of the team and his attitude towards Logan should have been over being reckless or not pulling his weight as the case varied or more realistically not trusting his history, no memory ..dogtags it could have just been a trust issue that the guy is probably with the brotherhood etc not so obviously and solely over Jean.It was a poor script imo

[andreikes]

It's so cool to see what they're doing with Storm (and although I love her with Black Panther she's not defined or mixed with him) and Emma that you can see another link with the cyke. Also Storm and Emma are pretty independent as leaders. And we have Jean (hated by the current x-office). Sorry, but no... Seriously... I don't understand everything this woman has gone through with this man (betrayed, lover, the guy had a child with a clone, wait for male choice...) and people still find this relationship beautiful. It looks like a person stuck in the first relationship of life and doesn't progress.

I just want Jean well developed :'(

[Gray Lensman]

Have to agree on Scott and Jean having no chemistry(and by that I mean first trilogy), though I don't put it down to the actors.It was the silly script. Cyclops had nothing to do except always giving Logan attitude and acting insecure. Scott should have been shown as leader of the team and his attitude towards Logan should have been over being reckless or not pulling his weight as the case varied or more realistically not trusting his history, no memory ..dogtags it could have just been a trust issue that the guy is probably with the brotherhood etc not so obviously and solely over Jean.It was a poor script imo

From what I have read it was a combination of editorial meddling and the editing room.

Other mistakes from the series (and the single most relevant to this thread) were the repeated refusals to make the Dark Phoenix storyline about Jean (it's not about Logan's loss, not about Xavier and Magneto waangsting over each other for the umpteenth time, nor about Mystique, it's Jean, Jean, and Jean. Even Scott is a supporting character in that story, albeit an important one), nor were they willing to take the camera off of their big three long enough to let us get to identify with the new class.

[Grinning Soul]

It's so cool to see what they're doing with Storm (and although I love her with Black Panther she's not defined or mixed with him) and Emma that you can see another link with the cyke. Also Storm and Emma are pretty independent as leaders. And we have Jean (hated by the current x-office). Sorry, but no... Seriously... I don't understand everything this woman has gone through with this man (betrayed, lover, the guy had a child with a clone, wait for male choice...) and people still find this relationship beautiful. It looks like a person stuck in the first relationship of life and doesn't progress.

I just want Jean well developed :'(

Do you want to try to understand?

Serious question.

[Rev9]

From what I have read it was a combination of editorial meddling and the editing room.

Other mistakes from the series (and the single most relevant to this thread) were the repeated refusals to make the Dark Phoenix storyline about Jean (it's not about Logan's loss, not about Xavier and Magneto waangsting over each other for the umpteenth time, nor about Mystique, it's Jean, Jean, and Jean. Even Scott is a supporting character in that story, albeit an important one), nor were they willing to take the camera off of their big three long enough to let us get to identify with the new class.

As I said if writers want to take on a Phoenix storyline it needs to be told through a minimum of a trilogy yet they stuffed it all in a single film in both cycles of film. Add to that for me personally the Phoenix even if it inhabits Jean as a vessel needs its own sentience and voice to make the two distinct but portrayed in unison sort of like Venom, but not that 'maniacal' .so that the two characters are distinct through the film creating layers of complexity and empathy for Jean interacting with such an entity because we all know darkness sells, no one is going to turn the Phoenix into a benevolent entity or at least a purely benevolent one.

[Grinning Soul]

From what I have read it was a combination of editorial meddling and the editing room.

Other mistakes from the series (and the single most relevant to this thread) were the repeated refusals to make the Dark Phoenix storyline about Jean (it's not about Logan's loss, not about Xavier and Magneto waangsting over each other for the umpteenth time, nor about Mystique, it's Jean, Jean, and Jean. Even Scott is a supporting character in that story, albeit an important one), nor were they willing to take the camera off of their big three long enough to let us get to identify with the new class.

[Mercury]

Here's an interesting rendering of Jean's modified HG look by fan Luis Flores.

[Marvelboy1974]

Here's an interesting rendering of Jean's modified HG look by fan Luis Flores.

Elegant and Simple! I love the bodysuit in black. I do feel like the X over her breasts should be gold to match the golden X’s on her boots, and instead of a triangle her headdress should have her signature pentagon, like the ones on her forearms. It gives me evolution but make it fashion!

[Harpsikord]

That's interesting. Do you know where he said this?

The link that was shared here is what I was referring to along with quote where Duggan said he knew he would be getting X-Men as early as him scripting Marauders #4, which would've been around the time all the #1's released.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It's so cool to see what they're doing with Storm (and although I love her with Black Panther she's not defined or mixed with him) and Emma that you can see another link with the cyke. Also Storm and Emma are pretty independent as leaders. And we have Jean (hated by the current x-office). Sorry, but no... Seriously... I don't understand everything this woman has gone through with this man (betrayed, lover, the guy had a child with a clone, wait for male choice...) and people still find this relationship beautiful. It looks like a person stuck in the first relationship of life and doesn't progress.

I just want Jean well developed :'(

It's a nostalgia thing. Sort of like the adulation for the Jim Lee Jean Grey costume. Jott was what was happening when alot of people first heard of X-Men.