This is true: Hickman implied, and White stated that Jean reverted to her old uniform because it symbolized for her the two times she rejected the Phoenix Force. This was also alluded to in X-Men #4, in which her nightmare illustrated the link between her guilt and her decision to revert to her former identity and appearance; mind you, a decision over which Duggan depicted her as being conflicted. I assume her nightmare and encounter with Nightmare acted as the catalysts for her realization that her residual guilt and subconscious fear were the driving forces behind her regression. Granted, her renunciation of the old uniform and codename has been teased out more than underscored. Still, I am reticent to assume this is because Marvel, Duggan, or the writers dislike or are uninterested in her. For all we know, the developments two current X-writers have told me are coming may include further exploration of her recent decision to shed her Marvel Girl garb and, seemingly, moniker.
This is fair and I don't begrudge you your skepticism or pragmatism. All I can do is assure you that I am telling the truth about what I have been told.
To be clear, I've never claimed to "see greatness and tender loving care" in Jean's development post-X-Men Red. I certainly have my issues with some of the directions in which she was taken after that series ended. In the last two to three years, many characters, A-list and otherwise, have been either ignored, underdeveloped, or inexplicably written out of character. However, as I wrote above, I don't assume this means Marvel and the writers dislike or have no interest in her or them. Moreover, it was revealed that Hickman had plans that he initially intended to unfold in just as many years, i.e., two to three years. I assume, as a result of the decision to extend his story, i.e., the Krakoan era, the arcs he may have had planned for various characters were slowed down and stretched out to cover this extension.
Kitty, I'm not going to get into this with you again; we've been there and done that before. I will say this: You offer very few opportunities for discourse. You simply proclaim blanket judgments and sweeping assumptions and generalizations as truth and, at times, make it a point of actively shutting down actual discourse by reducing discussions to "[they have] negative feelings toward a powerful Jean." It seems the bottom line is always the same with you: They took Phoenix away from her, she's died a couple of times, she's still with Cyclops, and she hasn't been developed to fit my preferences during this era, therefore, Marvel and the writers dislike and/or have no interest in her.
The bottom line is this: Neither you, I, nor anyone else knows what Marvel and the writers have planned for her. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether what you assume or what I've been told will become more evident in the coming months.
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
Regarding interrupting discourse, I will apologize for disrupting the intensive study everyone was doing on Jean's current meaty plot all the times that such a thing happened. As far as the influences behind the creative decisions that happen to Jean, I think people today have hangups around characters just like people did back in the day when a girl who could fight Thor sooo blasphemous.
Really and truly Jean doesn’t need the Phoenix force. She is already at least as powerful as the Phoenix at base power levels. Now she would need the Phoenix to wipe away the future and reset the universe, but that’s not obviously going to happen again because it’s a boring plot.
We’ve seen Jeen take down Galactus and we’ve seen Jean take down Nightmare. We will likely see Jean take down Eternals. It’s all good.
It’s okay if you totally hate everything from Marvel. That doesn’t mean you get to dictate how others feel. Each person here is individually responsible for their own feelings and happiness.
I think the issue seems to be because you’re unhappy with Marvel currently, you want to force others to feel as you do. It doesn’t work like that. Just as you feel the way you do, other people feel the way they do.
@MarvelFan1992 reminded me of something in the 'Bobby joins X-Men' thread:
That was Jordan D. White who said the following about Leinil Francis Yu's promotional poster for Destiny of X:
Source: https://aiptcomics.com/2021/12/13/x-...ite-inferno-3/Jordan: If we put in every character that’s going to be in every book, he would still be drawing for the next month. It’s a lot of characters. We went through and made decisions for every book of who we wanted to feature from that book. Those decisions had to do with who’s got the most important plot lines, but also sometimes it had to do with who was cool-looking. If your favorite isn’t on there, that doesn’t mean they’re not going to be in the books.
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
Guys... I say this with love. Stop trusting what those clowns say about the covers and the promotional materials.
Have you forgotten about Inferno already?
While they distract and manipulate us with endless tricks and gimmicks like that (including the in-story ones) we don't pay attention at the actual quality of the product we're consuming.
It's fine if you like what we're getting now. But you'd probably like it even more if those books were well written. Just go back and read some old comics if you need a refresher of what a good comic book looks like. You deserve better. We all do.
Also, we still don't know where this is from:
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
Hmm... That's a good question. I'd have to say HoX/PoX, even though I don't personally like Hickman's style or the concept of the story for the X-Men in particular. But it was well-written.
That being said, because it was the beginning of a new "era", we couldn't judge certain aspects that felt "off" yet. The story itself had an aura of mystery and part of what made it compelling was to wonder what the hell was going on.
So it's a mixed bag for a bunch of reasons, but it's well-written, given its premise.
EDITED: And before that, I guess I'd choose The Dark Angel Saga. Not a perfect story and a bit derivative in some aspects, but a really moving story.
EDITED 2: But it's possible I'm forgetting another arc I really like. I'll correct this if I think of another.
Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-16-2022 at 07:53 AM.
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
See below as you're not correct.
Bolded for truth.
The issue when comparing Jean and Rachel as hosts, which tbh we shouldn't do really, is that the concepts of the Phoenix Force changed a number of times during and after the time period that Jean and Rachel were hosts. First it was the ultimate expression of Jean's abilities. Then it was those abilities shared by her daughter (and daughter of the PF). Then it was a cosmic entity because they needed to explain Jean's resurrection. List of changes continues as does the hosts. The closest Rachel got to operating at the White Crown level was when she was resurrected by the PF as it's "one true heir and Phoenix" (quoted because clearly that changed shortly after) and left Rachel to manage the powers while the cosmic entity went into hibernation. When that happened, she didn't have much time to do anything as host since the change in editors dictated that she was leaving Excalibur and the X-books. My point is that the concepts of the Phoenix at the times reflected on how those characters were written as a host. It's comparing apples and oranges. Both were accomplished hosts and avatars, both had different opportunities. And neither should be burdened with the Phoenix again for a long time as they are written better without it.
It feels that way to you I guess, but I'd wager that there are in fact people that enjoyed Rachel as Phoenix vs the definitive zero you claim. Or this an attempted trolling?
1000%. Rachel is very different from Jean and while they have shared similar abilities and code names, they use their powers differently and operate at different levels. I love them both.I imagine even the Rachel fans are more about what separates her from Jean than they are about the copycatting. Hound, Mother Askani.
That I remember on the top of my head, The Dark Angel Saga.
EDITED: So, there were plenty of other stories I liked. But my memory is horrible and I don't remember exactly which came before which, so I'll just mention some of them: I liked most of Carey's run in Legacy and then Spurrier's run there. I liked most Remender's run in Uncanny X-force. I liked most of the stuff involving Hope including Messiah Complex and Second Coming. I don't think it was stellar, but Gillen's run in Uncanny X-Men was better than almost anything written in this Krakoa era, etc...
Last edited by Grinning Soul; 05-16-2022 at 08:08 AM.