Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Harpsikord]

It's a nostalgia thing. Sort of like the adulation for the Jim Lee Jean Grey costume. Jott was what was happening when alot of people first heard of X-Men.

While that might be the case for a lot of people it isn't the case for everyone. I like Jott because they're shown as a couple that took a while to get together, fell apart for a bit, before coming back to one another. They read like first loves who genuinely do love each other despite all the mess that they've been through, and they have such a nice rapport and dynamic that just makes them work. They understand each other more than they understand anyone else or anyone else understands them, they bring out the best in each other, and again despite the mess that they've been through they actively (currently) have such a healthy dynamic with or without the open relationship with one another.

Maybe it's the romantic in me paired with the fact that I'm in a healthy relationship myself but I love seeing healthy relationships like theirs portrayed in comics because most creators prefer not to show those kinds of things in favor of drama.

[Grinning Soul]

While that might be the case for a lot of people it isn't the case for everyone. I like Jott because they're shown as a couple that took a while to get together, fell apart for a bit, before coming back to one another. They read like first loves who genuinely do love each other despite all the mess that they've been through, and they have such a nice rapport and dynamic that just makes them work. They understand each other more than they understand anyone else or anyone else understands them, they bring out the best in each other, and again despite the mess that they've been through they actively (currently) have such a healthy dynamic with or without the open relationship with one another.

Maybe it's the romantic in me paired with the fact that I'm in a healthy relationship myself but I love seeing healthy relationships like theirs portrayed in comics because most creators prefer not to show those kinds of things in favor of drama.

Same here.

[Gray Lensman]

While that might be the case for a lot of people it isn't the case for everyone. I like Jott because they're shown as a couple that took a while to get together, fell apart for a bit, before coming back to one another. They read like first loves who genuinely do love each other despite all the mess that they've been through, and they have such a nice rapport and dynamic that just makes them work. They understand each other more than they understand anyone else or anyone else understands them, they bring out the best in each other, and again despite the mess that they've been through they actively (currently) have such a healthy dynamic with or without the open relationship with one another.

Maybe it's the romantic in me paired with the fact that I'm in a healthy relationship myself but I love seeing healthy relationships like theirs portrayed in comics because most creators prefer not to show those kinds of things in favor of drama.

I've been reading Lore Olympus for a decent relationship fix. Plenty of drama still, but it comes from outside rather than between the two main characters.

[Gnostic]

Gray's point is the movies cater to both comic book fans as well as non comic book fans.In film with your background knowledge of comic lore, it makes no fuss and makes sense, but to a person with no comic knowledge ,it makes no sense especially since the Phoenix is not even mentioned as the catalyst for Apocalypse's defeat but in Dark Phoenix it is an extra terrestrial entity.The two films have absolutely no connection to a non comic book(conversant) fan.

In the movie, it is stated that Jean was evolving into the Phoenix Force and it was a power that was already in her.

From what I have read it was a combination of editorial meddling and the editing room.

Other mistakes from the series (and the single most relevant to this thread) were the repeated refusals to make the Dark Phoenix storyline about Jean (it's not about Logan's loss, not about Xavier and Magneto waangsting over each other for the umpteenth time, nor about Mystique, it's Jean, Jean, and Jean. Even Scott is a supporting character in that story, albeit an important one), nor were they willing to take the camera off of their big three long enough to let us get to identify with the new class.

To be fair, the big three had little screen time in the Dark Phoenix movie compared to Jean. There were actual estimates done.

https://www.imdb.com/list/ls021989213/

Magneto didn’t even show up until over halfway through the film. Mystique also dies halfway through. The big three definitely took a bit of a back seat in that movie.

As I said if writers want to take on a Phoenix storyline it needs to be told through a minimum of a trilogy yet they stuffed it all in a single film in both cycles of film. Add to that for me personally the Phoenix even if it inhabits Jean as a vessel needs its own sentience and voice to make the two distinct but portrayed in unison sort of like Venom, but not that 'maniacal' .so that the two characters are distinct through the film creating layers of complexity and empathy for Jean interacting with such an entity because we all know darkness sells, no one is going to turn the Phoenix into a benevolent entity or at least a purely benevolent one.

That’s true for the original series, but the 2019 film was actually meant to be the start of a Dark Phoenix Saga duology/trilogy and even has an open ending. It was basically an origin story about how Jean becomes Phoenix according to the people who worked on it. Check out this Reddit thread for sources:

https://reddit.com/r/MarvelatFox/com...e_xmen_series/

[Mercury]

This recoloring though...

[Mercury]

Is there an example of this "calculated" post? As far as reporting to mods, be my guest. I haven't broken any rule that I am aware of by not saying what you would like me to say. As far as insulting the character, I haven't. I have clowned on the writing and the old-fashioned restraints on the character though, as deserved.

I did say some of your posts "seem calculated" based on when and in response to whom you post them. You either know what I'm talking about or not. If not, then you weren't being calculated. Regarding reporting you or anyone else who comes into this thread to repeatedly make fun of Jean and how she's being depicted, I already admitted that I can't and won't be bothered with doing that. I've witnessed fans in other character appreciation threads report users for being mean-spirited about the character who is the focus of the thread, causing disruption to and derailing the thread. Resultingly, the posts of the users who were reported simply disappeared. Just sayin'.

About your connections...maybe you can influence them to give her a little more storytelling, maybe let her have a little crumb of conflict without the story ending on her being too delicate to handle it. That would be a major impact.

I wouldn't call them "connections." To put it simply: I've reached out to creatives and shared my knowledge of and enthusiasm for Jean, and they've been receptive and generous with their responses. Duggan himself already shared with me that Jean "kills it" by the end of the series' first year. I'm assuming that moment will happen somewhere between issues #10-#12. And I have made some suggestions, such as having her use her psionic energy absorption ability, which Duggan actually liked. I've offered tons of suggestions, feedback, and knowledge regarding her history and he's been nothing but receptive and responsive. I'm certainly not going to get anywhere with him or any other creatives using your sardonic tone and suggestions.

As for whether you relate to my "brand of being a fan", know that you do not have to. There is arguably some merit to the consideration of the why and what-does-this-mean and what-is-the-writer-trying-to-say-about-the-characters when reading a story. So no, in my eyes, not literally everything that is put on the page is endearing and it is all open to dissection. For some, it's not just "oh Jean wears an old costume now", it's more of a "oh Jean is wearing an old costume now, what are the thoughts/opinions/upbringing/intents behind that?" And it's great that there is a difference in the way people read the stories and there should be someone there to say "everything is awesome".

Oh, I think I made it very clear that I "do not have to" relate to you or anything you have to say. I also admitted that I believe, deep down, you're a cool person and that I like to spar with you regarding Jean. And yes, there is certainly merit in analyzing stories and characters and the themes and motivations that propel both. What there is no merit in, as far as I am concerned, is repeatedly ridiculing stories and characters that one has either no interest in or long ago moved on from. It serves no purpose and is actually insulting and embarrassing to those fans who are positively invested in said stories and characters.

Does that mean one can't share their negative thoughts and feelings about these stories and characters? Of course not. Everyone should be able to express themselves and share what they think and how they feel. However, at a certain point, context and frequency do matter. Coming into a character's appreciation thread to do nothing but repeatedly share negative and ridiculing thoughts, feelings, and opinions about the character in focus contradict the purpose of this thread. It also pushes some fans away. Several fans have admitted variations of this to me: "I don't post or go in that thread anymore because of the constant negativity. I just don't have the energy for it." Thankfully, I have thick skin and my love for Jean Grey transcends whatever feeble attempts haters and detractors might make to turn this thread into a downer.

Sometimes the old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all," is apropos.

As for Jean running the show...well...Dwight (The Office reference) thought he was running the show as well, but Captain Krakoa is the team leader.

Your sarcasm is definitely amusing here but also indicative of what you wish to perceive, i.e., it isn't based on fact or anything that's been said by those that actually do run the show (e.g., Marvel, White, Duggan, et al.).

[Phoenixx9]

This recoloring though...

Are you liking this color change? Is that supposed to be silver and black or silver and green (I cannot tell)?

I think I like the Gala green with gold better.

[Mercury]

Are you liking this color change? Is that supposed to be silver and black or silver and green (I cannot tell)?

I think I like the Gala green with gold better.

Her torso and the ornament on the headpiece are both platinum-white, while her sleeves and the rest of the headpiece are green-grey. Her train, or the bit of it that we can see, seems to be beige-grey.

At first, it took me aback: Something about it felt right but I couldn't pinpoint what. Then I realized that it reminded me of the platinum-white color of her White Phoenix suit in the Classic X-Men backstory "Flights of Angels." I love it.

[Phoenixx9]

Her torso and the ornament on the headpiece are both platinum-white, while her sleeves and the rest of the headpiece are green-grey. Her train, or the bit of it that we can see, seems to be beige-grey.

At first, it took me aback: Something about it felt right but I couldn't pinpoint what. Then I realized that it reminded me of the platinum-white color of her White Phoenix suit in the Classic X-Men backstory "Flights of Angels." I love it.

I always call that Death house version of Jean's Phoenix costume The Silver Phoenix look, because certain costume parts like the Bird and sash has a silvery glow to it.

[Mercury]

I always call that Death house version of Jean's Phoenix costume The Silver Phoenix look, because certain costume parts like the Bird and sash has a silvery glow to it.

Silver fits too. Either way, I love the recolored costume. It looks great!

[Gnostic]

This recoloring though...

That does look beautiful!

[Gray Lensman]

I did say some of your posts "seem calculated" based on when and in response to whom you post them. You either know what I'm talking about or not. If not, then you weren't being calculated. Regarding reporting you or anyone else who comes into this thread to repeatedly make fun of Jean and how she's being depicted, I already admitted that I can't and won't be bothered with doing that. I've witnessed fans in other character appreciation threads report users for being mean-spirited about the character who is the focus of the thread, causing disruption to and derailing the thread. Resultingly, the posts of the users who were reported simply disappeared. Just sayin'.



I wouldn't call them "connections." To put it simply: I've reached out to creatives and shared my knowledge of and enthusiasm for Jean, and they've been receptive and generous with their responses. Duggan himself already shared with me that Jean "kills it" by the end of the series' first year. I'm assuming that moment will happen somewhere between issues #10-#12. And I have made some suggestions, such as having her use her psionic energy absorption ability, which Duggan actually liked. I've offered tons of suggestions, feedback, and knowledge regarding her history and he's been nothing but receptive and responsive. I'm certainly not going to get anywhere with him or any other creatives using your sardonic tone and suggestions.



Oh, I think I made it very clear that I "do not have to" relate to you or anything you have to say. I also admitted that I believe, deep down, you're a cool person and that I like to spar with you regarding Jean. And yes, there is certainly merit in analyzing stories and characters and the themes and motivations that propel both. What there is no merit in, as far as I am concerned, is repeatedly ridiculing stories and characters that one has either no interest in or long ago moved on from. It serves no purpose and is actually insulting and embarrassing to those fans who are positively invested in said stories and characters.

Does that mean one can't share their negative thoughts and feelings about these stories and characters? Of course not. Everyone should be able to express themselves and share what they think and how they feel. However, at a certain point, context and frequency do matter. Coming into a character's appreciation thread to do nothing but repeatedly share negative and ridiculing thoughts, feelings, and opinions about the character in focus contradict the purpose of this thread. It also pushes some fans away. Several fans have admitted variations of this to me: "I don't post or go in that thread anymore because of the constant negativity. I just don't have the energy for it." Thankfully, I have thick skin and my love for Jean Grey transcends whatever feeble attempts haters and detractors might make to turn this thread into a downer.

Sometimes the old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all," is apropos.



Your sarcasm is definitely amusing here but also indicative of what you wish to perceive, i.e., it isn't based on fact or anything that's been said by those that actually do run the show (e.g., Marvel, White, Duggan, et al.).

As a fan of the character Jean is supposedly being shafted in order to make look good.....Marvel is doing such a good job of it that what has been done to Jean seems like a massive improvement to what scraps Scott has been fed since the whole Krakoa era started. I'd trade the amount of development, panel time, and not being taken out Jean has had in exchange for what Scott has had up to the whole Captain Krakoa thing.

I'm definitely not saying this is the best Jean has ever had it (not even close) but anyone who is claiming that what is happening is in service to someone who is getting even less is letting personal biases rewrite reality for them. I wish my favorite had been shown half as much as Jean has received so far, but that hasn't happened.

If only the haters and trolls in charge could be shown the door, we'd all be happier. They can be given a green mini dress to take with them.

[Mercury]

As a fan of the character Jean is supposedly being shafted in order to make look good.....Marvel is doing such a good job of it that what has been done to Jean seems like a massive improvement to what scraps Scott has been fed since the whole Krakoa era started. I'd trade the amount of development, panel time, and not being taken out Jean has had in exchange for what Scott has had up to the whole Captain Krakoa thing.

Though I am genuinely sorry you feel this way—it sucks when we feel our favorite characters aren’t done justice—I am glad and also think it’s important that you brought up this point. The truth is, during this era, which has been more plot-focused than character-driven, most of the characters have received minimal to no development. Instead, as readers, we’ve been given myriad unexplained changes and mystifying allusions and expected to “fill in the blanks.” This can be fun, intriguing, and effective but to a certain point.

Frankly, I’ve enjoyed this era, but what’s kept it from being truly great is the overall detachment of ‘story from character.’ For the most part, the plots have driven the characters, sometimes in very inconsistent and contradictory ways, which, ultimately, leaves one feeling as if there is something slightly off or unreal about the whole thing. Then again, perhaps this is intentional on the part of the writers and editors, in which case, they've succeeded; at least in generating curiosity about what the hell is going on! This can be a good or bad thing, depending on the lens through which you choose to view it.

As for Scott, I really loved him in X-Men #7, though I am hardly an aficionado on or hardcore fan of the character, so you might disagree with my opinion. Nevertheless, I found him to be heroic, powerful, charming, and determined. This issue also sets up an intriguing new dynamic that could prove to be a defining shift for the upcoming era; one that, in my eyes, considering the fact that it started with Jean during X of Swords, seems natural and expected. I am curious to read what others think, especially you, when the issue drops next week.

I'm definitely not saying this is the best Jean has ever had it (not even close) but anyone who is claiming that what is happening is in service to someone who is getting even less is letting personal biases rewrite reality for them. I wish my favorite had been shown half as much as Jean has received so far, but that hasn't happened.

I agree. I suppose I haven't felt about or reacted to the restrictions they've imposed on Jean during this era as if the world is about to end because she pretty much dominated the decade preceding Hickman taking over. I'm cognizant of the fact that some fans haven't had the privilege of seeing their favorite characters in anything substantial in decades. In comparison, it seems in absolute bad taste to endlessly complain about costumes and plot points, especially when one knows the pain of one's favorite character being indefinitely “fridged.”

If only the haters and trolls in charge could be shown the door, we'd all be happier. They can be given a green mini dress to take with them.

They can be fun and useful in keeping us sharp, youthful, and grateful.

[johnnysv75]

For Jean, I need a actress that is drop-dead pretty, but even more important, one that has an effortless class, dignity and warmth to her every movement. She needs to be eloquent, soft-spoken and instantly like-able and charismatic. She also needs to have a humongous range of emotions for her acting, because she needs to be able to portray that inner light and that deep-rooted darkness just as well. And she needs to be terrifying without any extra make-up or special effects when she's portraying anger.

Sometimes I want to go back in time and pull the 1990s version of Madchen Amick into the 2020s so she could be the one definitive Jean Grey.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

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Your sarcasm is definitely amusing here but also indicative of what you wish to perceive, i.e., it isn't based on fact or anything that's been said by those that actually do run the show (e.g., Marvel, White, Duggan, et al.).

Re: Calculated - I guess what I meant was when did something "seem calculated"?

As for making fun of the way Jean is depicted, or even ridiculing her really, is entirely fine to do. What's not fine is personal attacks and if I have done that then my apologies, but if someone is "embarrassed" because I called Jean a telephone or whatever anyone has said about characters or stories in particular, then honestly they need a reminder that they are in fact not the characters, close though they might identify with them. If someone makes fun of a story or character...like Jean quitting X-Force to go play in a treehouse for example...and someone else would rather see a post saying playing in a tree house is the most interesting thing she has ever done, that someone else can make that post that they'd rather see.

As for Captain Krakoa not being the X-Men leader, I have yet to see a book featuring Captain Krakoa where Captain Krakoa is not the leader. But there is a first time for everything. We'll see what's what if something major happens and a call has to be made.