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  1. #6391
    Incredible Member The Thunderbird's Avatar
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    If Jean is the Phoenix then what does that make of the Phoenix Force? A Jean Grey that has transcended time or was born in a previous cosmos like Galactus?

  2. #6392
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    If Jean is the Phoenix then what does that make of the Phoenix Force? A Jean Grey that has transcended time or was born in a previous cosmos like Galactus?
    It mean it still exists as a separate cosmic entity. When Jean becomes Phoenix she gains the ability to fully merge and access all its powers. I've view Jean as someone who always has the ability to access it and usurp its power from anyone whenever she wants. That makes her unique from any regular hosts. She chooses not to

  3. #6393
    Mighty Member andreikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    Ah, see. The issue was not definitive at all. Is she Phoenix or does she think she is terms of just her mindset? Or is it just that the Celestial thinks she is Phoenix because he has no interest in petty canon to absolve her?

    I was hoping for definitive new/corrective Phoenix mythology, but it essentially didn't say anything and left us where we were at the beginning of the issue, interpreting it however we feel like.
    Well... If he could judge Echo... But she's dead. Then it would be possible to get an idea and if he would have the power to judge the entity

  4. #6394
    Very well. War. Subliminally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    As White Phoenix, I believe she could do it, but that would require her embracing and manifesting the full range of her abilities.

    My take: She’s not only unwilling to transcend humanity to do this but is also scared to achieve apotheosis. This is partly due to her trauma-induced actions as Dark Phoenix. However, it is also a very human thing to fear losing one’s mortal identity and relationships to delve into the known unknown.

    On a side note, it makes so much sense that Defenders #3, in which Taaia, Galactus’ mother, utters a phrase only Jean has uttered (twice to Ororo) dropped just a few weeks before this issue. Gillen and Ewing’s synchronicity not only doesn’t seem like a mistake or coincidence but is also rather perfect, actually.

    Thanks for the detail response, Merc! BUUUUT I'll ask! Jean has to be aware of exactly how she became Dark Phoenix in the first place right? We know it wasn't just because of the sudden surge in power that triggered her. So in this day and age with all the knowledge and skill she has now, would she really have to worry about going dark phoenix?

    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I dont know. It looks undeniably black to me





    Lets say you are right. If she is able to see the consequences of reversing the massacre, then maybe its not worth reversing. So much in the world would have changed had Jean gone Dark Phoenix. The whole trajectory of the X-men and the universe would change. For all we know that could be for the worse. Jean needed to not be around for certain things to happen
    All true. It was just a question I thought I'd ask considering the Phoenix's capabilities with time travel and universe plastic surgery lol.
    This is not our house. Know that and know peace!

    Not really active here anymore, feel free to find me on the cesspool that is Twitter: https://twitter.com/DivineMutation

  5. #6395
    Very well. War. Subliminally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    It mean it still exists as a separate cosmic entity. When Jean becomes Phoenix she gains the ability to fully merge and access all its powers. I've view Jean as someone who always has the ability to access it and usurp its power from anyone whenever she wants. That makes her unique from any regular hosts. She chooses not to
    I'm reading that and basically all I'm seeing is Jean being like -



    Anytime someone else gets a piece of the PF.
    This is not our house. Know that and know peace!

    Not really active here anymore, feel free to find me on the cesspool that is Twitter: https://twitter.com/DivineMutation

  6. #6396
    Spectacular Member SugarMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    I mean this issue explicitly states Jean is Phoenix. The celestial says she is like him. Sinister said he could never properly clone Jean and he is unique. Further evidence to Jean as phoenix, since there is something inherently unique about her and her essence that cant merely be copied or duplicated.
    Yeah, its meant to be definitive. Jean is Phoenix. Marvel just doesn't understand that things need to be spelled out explicitly, with no room for other interpretations. It could be that was intentional, so later down the line somebody else can put a different spin on it. But it was meant to mean that Jean is Phoenix. They may go into it more in the next issue, but it really should have been as clear as possible in this one.

  7. #6397
    Spectacular Member SugarMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    It mean it still exists as a separate cosmic entity. When Jean becomes Phoenix she gains the ability to fully merge and access all its powers. I've view Jean as someone who always has the ability to access it and usurp its power from anyone whenever she wants. That makes her unique from any regular hosts. She chooses not to
    Remember when not even the "force" could evict teen Jean from the White Hot Room? Jean has total access.

  8. #6398
    Mighty Member MarquisAsh's Avatar
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    Good thing the celestial didn’t say you “were”.

  9. #6399
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    X-Men: Dark Web #3 (2023):

    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  10. #6400
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subliminally View Post
    Thanks for the detail response, Merc!
    You're welcome, love! Any time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Subliminally View Post
    BUUUUT I'll ask! Jean has to be aware of exactly how she became Dark Phoenix in the first place right? We know it wasn't just because of the sudden surge in power that triggered her. So in this day and age with all the knowledge and skill she has now, would she really have to worry about going dark phoenix?
    No, what triggered her was the abuse and trauma she endured at the hands of Mastermind and the Hellfire Club. She was gaslit, brainwashed, physically and psychically abused, and both made and urged to do things she would never have done under ordinary circumstances. As a result, she had what I consider a post-traumatic breakdown, which resulted, albeit unintentionally so, in the annihilation of a planet and its inhabitants. Consequently, her entire family was murdered. Not to mention her denial and diversion of an entire aspect of her psyche, which resulted in the animation of a half-baked clone who tried to murder her and those she loves. Mind you, this is not an insult to Madelyne as much as a reference to Sinister's admission that he never could truly clone Jean, i.e., Madelyne is not Jean's equal.

    Trauma, especially as severe and compounded as what I've listed above, does not "go away" or disappear so easily. So, while Jean has immeasurable skill and knowledge, she has also chosen to limit herself to feeling mortal emotions and thinking mortal thoughts. She still grapples with fear and trauma, though she doesn't let either dictate her day-to-day behavior and decisions. She's just not ready to go there yet. She is surrounded by loved ones and still feels it is her duty to ensure the safety and harmony of mutants and humans. I totally get it. In fact, I love it. I love that what Gillen has done, which, again, is what Claremont always wanted for and how he views Jean, has only deepened her motivations and internal life. There is so much to explore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subliminally View Post
    All true. It was just a question I thought I'd ask considering the Phoenix's capabilities with time travel and universe plastic surgery lol.
    Yours was definitely a valid question, and I'm glad you asked it!

    On another note, I love that Gillen liked and pretty much co-signed my tweet...



    Last edited by Mercury; 10-05-2022 at 05:18 PM.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  11. #6401
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    I posted in the other thread, but I had to come here and discuss how much I loved this issue. It is nice when Jean gets a issue focused on her. I kind of expected Jean would get a thumbs down. I am thrilled with all the positive responses to this book that I have seen on twitter and elsewhere.

    Jean is a great character and it is nice to see her portrayed as the complex character she is. I also love it when my favorite characters go through hardships and/or challenges. Her judgement was harsh but it was also necessary. I love that Jean strives to be better and she strives to make up for being Dark Phoenix. It is something she will always carry with her. I think of when Jean, Cyke, and others faced a Celestial in X-factor during the Judgment War story. There Jean says something to the effect of she has felt a people (or world) die and it is a torment to her. That is right after she received the memories and a portion of her soul that was merged with Phoenix and she had all the memories from the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Talk about reliving trauma .. and in ways Jean has relived it over and over from when the last D'Bari came for her and she relived the experience for both perspectives and then her trial in the Trial of Jean Grey storyline.

    Jean will always try to makeup for Dark Phoenix even though she can't. She cannot undo it or take it back. But she can go forward. I'm not sure where she goes from here, but I can't wait to see the conclusion. I love the line about her being the Phoenix now and forever from the Celestial and the from of the fiery D'Bari giving her a thumbs down. I also liked how angry this made Jean. It is nice to see her temper because we don't see it very often.

    Gillen wrote a powerful and strong Jean, but she also displayed vulnerability. I like that Jean is conflicted about the QC and this was exploited by the Celestial. Jean made a tough choice to leave the council and restart the X-men.

    I made sure to have my brother purchase more than one copy of this issue as I'm out of town. I do encourage everyone to buy a physical copy if you can and are able.

  12. #6402
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    I mean this issue explicitly states Jean is Phoenix. The celestial says she is like him. Sinister said he could never properly clone Jean and he is unique. Further evidence to Jean as phoenix, since there is something inherently unique about her and her essence that cant merely be copied or duplicated.
    I agree, and while I wanted a more concrete and definitive explanation I am thrilled with the issue and how it turned out. The main thing I wanted was for them to respect Jean's history and not further separate Jean from Phoenix. I love this current version of Jean and I think it is great that she didn't lose anything with this issue. Taking the DPS from her during the early days of the retcon was horrible. The DPS is a defining story because of the trauma she went through. She still carries the weight of the DPS and that remains.

    Jean had to face that she can't ever fully make up what happened to the D'Bari. She will carry that with her even if she has saved other worlds (or helped save the universe).

    I loved Sinister's line because it solved some fan speculation. Some fans thought Maddie had to be omega as she was a clone of Jean, but we also know that Maddie was -for lack of a better word an imperfect clone. And this is probably true of all the Maddie clones Sinister created during the Avengers vs X-men story.

    I like that Jean is somehow unique and that she has some gravitas as a powerful mutant/being. This story added to Jean's arc and did not strip or take anything away from her and that is a very good thing. Seeing all the happy fans on facebook, twitter, and elsewhere has been great to see. It's time for Jean to get her flowers. We've seen the level of respect given to characters like Storm, Magneto, and other important (and powerful) mutants so it was nice for Jean to get some love.

  13. #6403
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    X-Men: Dark Web #3 (2023):

    I want to see Jean's reaction to Alex going all woof woof over her scantly dressed clone.

    It's gotta be weird.
    The Krakoans are EEEvil!

    THEY MUST BE STOPPED!

  14. #6404
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I agree, and while I wanted a more concrete and definitive explanation...
    If I may ask, what explanation would be more "concrete and definitive" than "You are the Phoenix, now and forever"? It seems some fans—and this is not aimed at you specifically—wanted or expected Jean to turn into Phoenix in this issue, or for the Progenitor to explain the intricacies of Jean's identity as Phoenix or even White Phoenix, even though such that identity—that dynamic—is far beyond a Celestial's purview and perception.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  15. #6405
    The Red Dragon Tank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Thunderbird View Post
    If Jean is the Phoenix then what does that make of the Phoenix Force? A Jean Grey that has transcended time or was born in a previous cosmos like Galactus?
    Forever. This supports the idea that once Jean became phoenix the first time that she was always and will be Phoenix. This line or ones similar have been repeated not only by Jean, the phoenix itself, death and now a celestial. In xmen forever eternity said they were afraid of what mutants like Jean represented and how one day they might replace certain cosmic forced ircc.

    The nature of the white room through which white phoenix Jean operates is beyond space and time. It always was and always is. Everything at once.

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