Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Warlioncomics]

[QUOTE=Mercury;6062448]It's not about needing his mommy, who, if we want to get really technical, is Madelyne, but about having someone he trusts and loves, and who feels the same towards him, offer him support. It could be a moving side plot.



Yes, she and Logan have kissed around 3-5 times in the last 3 years, mostly under platonic circumstances, save for that one time in the hot tub; therefore, they're dating. Actually, they've been having sex four times a month in the caverns of the Blue Area of the Moon, are on the cusp of marriage, and are pregnant. Katherine, or "Shine," will be making her Krakoan debut shortly.


Someone is angry enough to through fan fiction at me 😂😂😂

Also, speaking of caring, or loving, for that matter: Scott caring about, nevermind loving, Jean seems kinda weird considering the fact that he didn't think to tell her that her clone was being resurrected, acting as if Jean was a "complication" to work around (see Hellions #18), even though she cared more for Madelyne and Nate's wellbeing upon her return from stasis than he ever did


Jean was a complication to the council as she’s the original, she wasn’t a complication because she didn’t want Maddie back or anything like that

Let's not even get into him carrying on a telepathic affair with and likely also "dating" the woman who not only was instrumental in facilitating Mastermind's abuse of Jean but also flooded her time-displaced teenage self with her own memories of having sex with Scott, whose teenage mind she also later controlled and personality she tried to rewrite.


Is the patient really responsible for his therapist being a weirdo ? Also Scott wasn’t gonna move on with Emma if it wasn’t for Jean’s interference
See what I did there? We can do this all day. I will not have you casting moral judgments on Jean when your favorite character gets away with doing what he does. You know, I'm trying to love Jean and Scott's pairing the way I used to, but takes like yours make it really hard.


Things like that are why I say you never get me , me being shady on the writers & editors ignoring continuity doesn’t mean I’m making fun of Jean because she’s not my favorite or whatever you think my problem is

[Omega_DCD]

Well blatant "mommy" stuff makes me cringe as well since they're all adults but it would be really cool to see Jean, Cable and maybe Rachel work together. Plus I love the simple moments like when Jean told Cable that she's proud of him after a battle, not overly "mommy" but acknowledge their history.

I'm especially fond of the relationship between Cable and Jean because its what made me read the X men comics (To find out what Jean meant when she read Cable's mind in the 1992 X men animated series)

I thought as much but I'm just new here. Back to FB groups and reddit I guess lol. But yeah, I'm starved for meaningful Jean and Cable interactions since Jean was dead when all the interesting Cable stuff happened (Savior, the Messiah Trilogy etc)

Hey im with ya, i love the Jean&Cable dynamic. And I'm sorry, but even besides the genetic connection, Jean actually raised Nathan, and has protected him almost since birth, including from Maddie herself. I mean, there's different parenting styles, and then there's this, lol...



And I love that he named one of hus guns after Jean

[I'm a Fish]

Cable named his gun Jean? XD

[Grinning Soul]

Mercury and Lukmendes: Serious question concerning "Shine" and just out of curiosity. In that AU, did they ever mention if Scott's mother is also called Katherine (like in the 616)? Because if so, that's just low. Was that intentional on the part of the writers?

[Micabe]

Yes, she and Logan have kissed around 3-5 times in the last 3 years, mostly under platonic circumstances, save for that one time in the hot tub; therefore, they're dating. Actually, they've been having sex four times a month in the caverns of the Blue Area of the Moon, are on the cusp of marriage, and are pregnant. Katherine, or "Shine," will be making her Krakoan debut shortly.

̶S̶o̶m̶e̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶g̶r̶y̶ ̶e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶f̶a̶n̶ ̶f̶i̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶������

̶A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶t̶e̶r̶:̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶,̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶m̶s̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶a̶ ̶w̶e̶i̶r̶d̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶e̶l̶l̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶c̶l̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶u̶r̶r̶e̶c̶t̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶"̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶"̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ ̶a̶r̶o̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶(̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶H̶e̶l̶l̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶#̶1̶8̶)̶,̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶M̶a̶d̶e̶l̶y̶n̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶N̶a̶t̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶l̶l̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶u̶p̶o̶n̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶e̶t̶u̶r̶n̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶s̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶

̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶n̶c̶i̶l̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶’̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶r̶i̶g̶i̶n̶a̶l̶,̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶M̶a̶d̶d̶i̶e̶ ̶b̶a̶c̶k̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶

̶L̶e̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶t̶e̶l̶e̶p̶a̶t̶h̶i̶c̶ ̶a̶f̶f̶a̶i̶r̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶"̶d̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶"̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶o̶m̶a̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶t̶r̶u̶m̶e̶n̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶f̶a̶c̶i̶l̶i̶t̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶M̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶m̶i̶n̶d̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶b̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶f̶l̶o̶o̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶-̶d̶i̶s̶p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶e̶e̶n̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶s̶e̶l̶f̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶o̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶e̶x̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶t̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶e̶e̶n̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶o̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶a̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶i̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶w̶r̶i̶t̶e̶.̶


̶I̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶i̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶p̶o̶n̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶a̶p̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶e̶i̶r̶d̶o̶ ̶?̶ ̶A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶n̶n̶a̶ ̶m̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶E̶m̶m̶a̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶’̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶f̶e̶r̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶
̶S̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶?̶ ̶W̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶d̶a̶y̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶a̶s̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶j̶u̶d̶g̶m̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶f̶a̶v̶o̶r̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶,̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶t̶r̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶S̶c̶o̶t̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶p̶a̶i̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶I̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶a̶k̶e̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶s̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶r̶d̶.̶

̶T̶h̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶,̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶d̶y̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶r̶i̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶&̶ ̶e̶d̶i̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ ̶i̶g̶n̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶i̶n̶u̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶I̶’̶m̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶u̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶J̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶e̶’̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶f̶a̶v̶o̶r̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶ ̶i̶s̶

What one time in the hot tub? Details, please... Surely, your going to provide us with a pic and or title and issue number of said consensual sexual hot tub encounter, right?

[Thirteen]

Jean helps Rogue and Storm, whose souls have left their bodies and float between life and death. From X-Treme X-Men #18 (2002):

Love Jean's quiet astral agenda in #18 foreshadowing her effort to re-unite the X-Treme squad with the the School based team. When she hugs them, they are suddenly dressed in what could be a version of the New X-Men School uniforms. She would later formally push for the reunion and be turned down.

[Thirteen]

What one time in the hot tub? Details, please... Surely, your going to provide us with a pic and or title and issue number of said consensual sexual hot tub encounter, right?

Hot tub sequence in X-FORCE #10 discussed here:
https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/x-...-marvel-x-men/

I wonder if the bikini was added after the initial art was submitted. The framing and positioning of her hair screams of an effort at a tasteful nudity...

[MarvelMaster616]

Hot tub sequence in X-FORCE #10 discussed here:
https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/x-...-marvel-x-men/

I wonder if the bikini was added after the initial art was submitted. The framing and positioning of her hair screams of an effort at a tasteful nudity...

I'm fairly certain that the bikini was added later. I don't have it on hand, but I believe John Cassera tweeted out an earlier version that had Jean fully nude that he ended up revising. It would explain why it seems to disappear in later panels. If I can find it, I'll post it.

But, bikini or no bikini, it's still sexy as hell.

[loke13]

I'm fairly certain that the bikini was added later. I don't have it on hand, but I believe John Cassera tweeted out an earlier version that had Jean fully nude that he ended up revising. It would explain why it seems to disappear in later panels. If I can find it, I'll post it.

But, bikini or no bikini, it's still sexy as hell.

Yep the bikini was definitely added on I guess Marvel found the panel in question "too provocative" but regardless the scene implied Jean and Logan hooking up in a hot tub.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

You do realise that Mercury will try to prove that Jean is getting lots of love, right?

Seriously, guys: never change!

I'll admit, she is on a thousand covers, but I want a narrative. And badassery. Inside the pages.

[Devaishwarya]

Larroca's work was beauty-full.

[Grinning Soul]

I'll admit, she is on a thousand covers, but I want a narrative. And badassery. Inside the pages.

I get it, Kitty.

And I really meant it: you guys are like yin and yang. Despite your particular quirks (both can be a bit too extreme every now and then, but that's your charm), I think we fans need both the gushing and the reality checking. :)

[Mercury]

Something something she wasn't an X-Man .

In his 1979 interview for The Comics Journal (my archives subscription was finally activitated yesterday!), Claremont disagrees, of course, because in his opinion, even if a character leaves the team—especially any of the founding and Second Genesis members—once an X-Man, always an X-Man. However, in the above-mentioned interview, he tries to shed light on how he was able to rationalize and reconcile his point of view with Byrne's:

"She is part of the team, but she is not. She's an X-Man in the sense that Thor is an Avenger. She's around all the time, but—what I wanted to establish before, when I originally created Phoenix, is that she is almost forced back to the team. She has—though we haven't had much chance to show it—a life, an existence, a job, friends outside the X-Men."

At the time, I'd say at least killing her off was the right call, considering heroes where more black and white and a hero killing a planet, yeah... Plus it added this sense of tragedy to the story too.

As you noted, in the end, the "sense of tragedy to the story"—to be clear, it wasn't a "sense of" as much as an explicit tragedy—is what has defined it as iconic to this day. However, as I've opined before, it isn't a perfect story. I have my criticisms regarding how the abuse and trauma aspects and their aftereffects were handled, i.e., they weren't handled with the insight and nuance that would be demanded today.

Furthermore, as Claremont himself noted, there's the lingering question of whether Phoenix would be susceptible to death, which, to use his words, "seemed to stretch the bounds of credibility." To be fair, he had no intention of killing her, even after Shooter made it clear that a "psychic lobotomy" wasn't going to cut it as far as punishment went. He intended to have her "corporeal self fade away," leaving the door open for her astral self to live on and possibly make a return.

The various retcons surrounding Jean and Phoenix, yeah, that's another story lol.

I've come to accept and even appreciate the retcons. I mean, in the end, these are all extremely mutable characters with which one has to be willing to "go for the ride," if you will, and take things as they come. What I care most about—and this has pretty much remained consistent throughout all of Jean's Earth 616 iterations—is that the core aspects of her character—her empathy, figurative and literal power, fieriness, and assertiveness—remain intact.

If Jean became a better character because of dumb decisions they've made, then she kinda has that in common with Mary Jane, 'cause she has so much nonsense that improved her character by accident, it's hilarious.

I think she's certainly become a more intricate and complex character as a result of all of the shifts and changes that define her history but then again, the same can be said about most characters with a nearly-60-year history.

Jean admitedly was trying to repress the Phoenix and kept being attacked to weaken herself, but yeah, it's a stretch regardless...

Exactly. If you think about the end too much while considering who and what Phoenix is, it doesn't make much sense. But that's what suspension of disbelief is for.

Later retcons even make it clear Phoenix didn't die there, she apparently sensed Rachel and travelled to Days of Future Past timeline to see what's up, or somethin' like that lol.

And I think this is how Claremont always saw and still sees it. While reading his interviews from the 1970s and early-1980s, I noticed that he alluded to there being a possibility of her coming back, despite his later claim that he was adamant she remain dead. Frankly, I think he 1) just didn't agree with the time and way in which she was brought back and 2) had something else planned for her return. Ultimately, he sees Jean and Phoenix as one, i.e., he considers Jean to be an immortal, eternal, infinite being.

Not to mention the first cartoon since WATXM, and that came out 13 years ago, if they screw up Jean again it'd be bad for her lol.

It would be bad for her but thankfully, I'm almost positive she won't be misrepresented this time around.

Yeah it's pretty noticeable, it didn't take long for most of her personality just have her thinking about Cyke.

Cyke also had the annoyance of thinking about how he can't be with Jean too much, but after a while he got some other stuff going on for his character (It wasn't much, but it was something), Jean meanwhile was either being more of a generic hero (Which everyone else was doing too) or just thinking about Cyke, was pretty annoying.

I think Claremont latched onto her original characterization in the earlier issues of the original run, which Roy Thomas started going back to in the later issues before Wein and Cockrum and then Claremont took over. When asked in 1979—this was before Dark Phoenix had been published—whether he felt he had veered away from Jean's earlier characterizations, Claremont had this to say:

Oh man, I thought you came up with Shine on the spot, I completely forgot about she was in RYV lol.

Haha! I'm not that creative.

I'm wondering if the sales jump is still true considering the amount of Jean/Phoenix click-bait covers marvel dishes out semi-regularly.

Or if it's just artist who like drawing the costume, cuz I mean, its a real good costume.

I wouldn't be surprised if issues with Jean on the cover still sell well. She's an alluring character to people, even to detractors. Whenever she's featured prominently in something, most people can't help but think, "Okay, wait. What's about to happen?" However, I also think, especially considering Gillen's recent revelation, that they've featured her on most of the covers for Judgment Day because she is going to have, at the very least, an impactful supporting role, if not a central one.

We'll find out soon enough.

[Devaishwarya]

In between the walls of text and tsunami of posts I wasn't sure if this was posted already...
Jean Grey by Artgerm
Jean Grey 01.jpg

[Mercury]

To all Storm fans lurking:

Most of us here *adore* Storm. If you guys want to argue that Storm is more powerful than Jean, have at it. But would you please move this battle to Ororo's appreciation?

We prefer to argue about Jean's uniforms and codenames over here. :P

I jest, but I'm serious.

Just to be clear, I posted my replies from Storm's thread here both to generate discussion and to get other Jean fans' opinions on them. Also, we weren't as much debating who is "more powerful" as much as having what I consider to be an intelligent, fact-based discussion on Claremont and Cockrum's impetus for creating Phoenix.

Anyone pitting Jean and Storm against one another when neither one gets any legitimate love from The Powers That Be in the last 20 years at least is playing directly into the sexism, or Byrneism, if you will.

Does it matter who is the Most Powerful Female Who Doesn't Do Anything or Have Her Stories Actually Count in Continuity? No.

We should be in lockstep but yall wanna battleboard. Lmao I cannot.

As I've said before, anyone pitting Jean and Ororo against one another lacks a fundamental understanding of each character. They are sisters by choice and friends to the end.

You do realise that Mercury will try to prove that Jean is getting lots of love, right?

Seriously, guys: never change!

Oh, you're so naughty. I see what you're doing.

Dont know if this sarcasm or anything but I always wonder if people who seriously says stuff like this goes to adopted kids and be like "Technically she's not your mom and technically she's not your son/daughter" whenever they hear them call their adoptive parents mom and vice versa. I have cousins who are adopted, if I told my uncle "hey dont call him your son" I swear he's going to beat the **** out of me

Not saying its fair to Maddie but the only mom Cable knew was Jean, he considers her his mother and Jean, while acknowledging that she's not the one who gave birth to him has said that Nathan is her son in all ways that matter.

Also, I'm well aware that Nathan/Cable is Madelyne's child. Anyway, if this discussion is really not welcome on this thread then I'll just stfu

The thing is, I highlight that Cable is technically Madelyne's son to be respectful to Madelyne and her fans. It's a sensitive topic. That being said, if I'm brutally honest—I'm sorry Madelyne fans!—I see Madelyne much in the same way Walter and Louise Simonson see her:

Walter: I mean, I don’t think this is revealing anything Chris hasn’t already said, but she’s really there because Jean Grey was torn away from Chris, as was Cyke to create X-Factor. Chris really created Maddie essentially as a doppelganger so he could do the Jean Grey stories he kind of wanted to do with a Jean Grey lookalike...So she was created kind of as a doppelganger in the beginning. She wouldn’t have existed, I don’t think, if Jean hadn’t been untimely ripped from Chris’s womb.

Louise: I knew she was just a substitute. She was always a fake Jean. When Chris was writing her, she was a fake Jean. I never actually–I’m going to get in so much trouble–but I never…She never felt real to me. And I think that what we did with her was the way I always felt about her–that she was never actually a real person. She was kind of a symbol for a person.

Source: https://aiptcomics.com/2021/04/19/x-...lter-simonson/

My apathy towards the character is compounded by the fact that she tried killing Jean and her family despite the fact that 1) Jean repeatedly tried convincing Scott to go back to her, 2) sacrificed her soul to Mephisto to save her and Nathan, and 3) it was established that she only gained life after a fragment of Jean's psyche—the same fragment the Phoenix Force possessed—animated her.

Still, I'd be remiss to say, "Oh, Cable is Jean's son. Madelyne who?" Again, it's a complicated and touchy topic.

Well blatant "mommy" stuff makes me cringe as well since they're all adults but it would be really cool to see Jean, Cable and maybe Rachel work together. Plus I love the simple moments like when Jean told Cable that she's proud of him after a battle, not overly "mommy" but acknowledge their history.

I'm especially fond of the relationship between Cable and Jean because its what made me read the X men comics (To find out what Jean meant when she read Cable's mind in the 1992 X men animated series)

I thought as much but I'm just new here. Back to FB groups and reddit I guess lol. But yeah, I'm starved for meaningful Jean and Cable interactions since Jean was dead when all the interesting Cable stuff happened (Savior, the Messiah Trilogy etc)

In the end, you should feel safe and comfortable talking about any Jean-related topics in this thread, including her relationship with Cable. Personally, I liked your suggestion of her helping him in X-Men Red, even if only through emotional support. Then again, that could complicate matters in a way that undermines what Ewing has planned. After all, Jean could easily pull Ororo and Nathan aside, and have them band together, which would throw a wrench in Brand's schemes.

You can talk about Jean's motherhood here too. Just know the people who have a lower tolerance to this particular cringe than you can be loud and will push back.

I'm starved too. I love their special bond.

Yes to all of this.