Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Peanutsinspace]

I recently came across and watched a fan edit that someone made where they put in the deleted/extended scenes from X3. It's all of the stuff we've all seen before but it felt different for instance being able to watch the "telepathic battle" as a scene in the movie proper rather than as a cut scene. The movie still isn't that great with things added back in but the effort was appreciated. Here's the fan cover:

[Celestialbodies]

Yes, Jean might have been, but like the Green Dress, I feel that it is best now left behind as Jean forges forward as Omega-Omega in her new costume! We need a new name, not used, formerly used, or clunky (as most suggested ones have been), something new, fresh and Powerful!

Jean was shown as a most capable fighter when she decked Manta. It wasn't just a one-shot either, Jean employed good fighting techniques. If I remember correctly, all of this occurred while suffering from severe Nanite poisoning too, while steering 75 people against their frightened wills into a sheltered area for their protection from the Shi'ar attack and while storing Xavier's consciousness in her mind, losing very few memories in the process!

Let's hope for the best but expect the usual!!!

It's sad that I believe you are 100% correct. It's mind boggling how they could ignore the fact that Jean and the current user of the force are literally a couple feet apart, but as you said it probably wont be addressed.



Tbh I never got why telepaths are often seen as incapable H2H fighters. If anything I'd be more scared to fight a telepath in H2H than a "true" H2H fighter. I get that muscle memory is a thing but tbh given how time damn near stands to a stop when the story calls for it, a telepath could be a master of several fighting styles before the second punch is thrown.

Honestly, I hate to say it but Jean doesn't get those kinds of moments certainly not in a crossover event, let hope she at least talks to Echo at some point about the nuances of the PF. But I think their moving in a different direction with the PF mythos and they'll ignore much of Jean contributions outside of the superficial aspects.


On your second point, it could become a slippery slope I imagine, of course any ability could become convoluted however telepathy already has a ton of applications. You add a skilled and competent telepath at the forefront of extensive combat training, that's a dangerous combination. Or you end up with a case like Bets in Kwannon's body at various points, both her telepathy or H2H combat skills were severely downplayed.


RANT:

Why wasn't Bets as Kwannon used more extensively across Marvel in the 90's? I think current Kwannon is a character with so much potential, but I've always thought it was a disservice how little the X-men proper weren't allowed out of their wheelhouse, Wolverine notwithstanding!

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

What 10’words were those?

I didn’t even know this. That or I completely forgot. Time to research.

In what story he wrote them?

It was nothing major:

[Rising7]

FKmJ1jwXIAUUF6J.jpg

From this I divine, at least for myself, that the best headgear and masks show as much of Jean's face as possible. At least usually. I remember early iterations of the green dress came with a smaller mask that I didn't like quite as much.

[Tank]

FKmJ1jwXIAUUF6J.jpg

From this I divine, at least for myself, that the best headgear and masks show as much of Jean's face as possible. At least usually. I remember early iterations of the green dress came with a smaller mask that I didn't like quite as much.

This is her new look/tiara done right and looks beautiful. That cover to AXE was not it.

I also find some colorists are not getting the various shades of green right either which can add to the costume looking off —- looking at you phiil Noto.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Phil Noto also refuses to color her eyes correctly.

[Force de Phenix]

[Micabe]

Yes, Jean might have been, but like the Green Dress, I feel that it is best now left behind as Jean forges forward as Omega-Omega in her new costume! We need a new name, not used, formerly used, or clunky (as most suggested ones have been), something new, fresh and Powerful!

Jean was shown as a most capable fighter when she decked Manta. It wasn't just a one-shot either, Jean employed good fighting techniques. If I remember correctly, all of this occurred while suffering from severe Nanite poisoning too, while steering 75 people against their frightened wills into a sheltered area for their protection from the Shi'ar attack and while storing Xavier's consciousness in her mind, losing very few memories in the process!

In today's era why burden her with a costume moniker when everyone who is anyone in the entire universe knows who she is and what she is capable of? Her name is Jean Grey and that should be enough...

[WallStreeter]

Let's hope for the best but expect the usual!!!



Honestly, I hate to say it but Jean doesn't get those kinds of moments certainly not in a crossover event, let hope she at least talks to Echo at some point about the nuances of the PF. But I think their moving in a different direction with the PF mythos and they'll ignore much of Jean contributions outside of the superficial aspects.


On your second point, it could become a slippery slope I imagine, of course any ability could become convoluted however telepathy already has a ton of applications. You add a skilled and competent telepath at the forefront of extensive combat training, that's a dangerous combination. Or you end up with a case like Bets in Kwannon's body at various points, both her telepathy or H2H combat skills were severely downplayed.


RANT:

Why wasn't Bets as Kwannon used more extensively across Marvel in the 90's? I think current Kwannon is a character with so much potential, but I've always thought it was a disservice how little the X-men proper weren't allowed out of their wheelhouse, Wolverine notwithstanding!

90s Marvel has no female writers, artists, or editors and blatantly were only concerned about straight male fans. So it’s obvious why Psylovkebin those days wasn’t used broadly. Wolverine was a collection of male stereotypes, it’s obviously why he was used everywhere and even why he was the X-Man for the Fox movies. It’s a different era now where Marvel and other companies have finally had to deal with issues of inclusivity.

As for Jean, it might be more interesting to see her interact with the Eternals and what think of her. If Jean doesn’t her back the codename Phoenix, they should just call her by her name Jean Grey. Not everyone needs a codename.

I just think Phoenix is a good name for her because without the Phoenix and without the Krakoan resurrection she still has found ways to resurrect herself multiple times.

[otipep_90]

In today's era why burden her with a costume moniker when everyone who is anyone in the entire universe knows who she is and what she is capable of? Her name is Jean Grey and that should be enough...

For the mutants it’s not just a costume moniker, it is their mutants name. It cultural, and pride. All Krakoans should have one.

It’s tough for Jean. It should be Phoenix, how many Spider-Men or Captain America(s) are their? A $h@t load. I don’t see why Jean hasn’t earned it with our having to be a PF host.

Marvel Woman is obvious, Dr. Marvel (like Dr. Solar or Dr. Manhattan) could work, Cerebra has been poorly used, but instantly feels classic X-Men and has some recognition outside comics and I feel Jean could really make it her own.

Marvel Girl name should be retired at this point. I feel this is the next battle after finally got a new costume.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I think Jean Grey is fine.
Culture is cool, but when you start mandating it, it's dogma.

[Exodus]

what's this? Old male farts united? "All the women in the back please." lol

[BobbysWorld]

I think Jean Grey is fine.
Culture is cool, but when you start mandating it, it's dogma.

Yup, its why my eye twitched every time they went on about Christian Frost's mutant name in Marauders. I love codenames and enjoy brainstorming ones for Jean or would be open to a writer pushing a new one for her because idk, I just think codenames are neat lol. And as long as they or the urge to have one ORIGINATES with the character just like, being written as curious to explore aspects of their identity or try on a new name or designation that speaks to the superhero version of themselves they're trying to be rather than their 'downtime' persona or whatever....like, all the power to them, cool beans.

But I'm always wary whenever the current books describe it as a mutant name rather than a codename or make a big deal out of that aspect because it kinda tries to retroactively paint existing codenames as being something they weren't intended as at first....like Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Iceman, etc....they didn't debut that way because they were trying to use mutant names, it was literally just a secret identity thing as the X-Men originally were meant to...y'know, have those. And its one thing for the concept to expand over the years and for some of them to later embrace the idea that their other names could speak to a kind of mutant culture as well, like there's room to explore that concept on an opt-in basis from one individual character to another, but some writers really layer in this unintentional vibe of 'you're not a real mutant until you have a mutant name' like in Marauders and that's when I'm like whoooooa pump the brakes, fella, you lost me. I was zigging and you went zagging. We are no longer on the same page.

[Grinning Soul]

Yup, its why my eye twitched every time they went on about Christian Frost's mutant name in Marauders. I love codenames and enjoy brainstorming ones for Jean or would be open to a writer pushing a new one for her because idk, I just think codenames are neat lol. And as long as they or the urge to have one ORIGINATES with the character just like, being written as curious to explore aspects of their identity or try on a new name or designation that speaks to the superhero version of themselves they're trying to be rather than their 'downtime' persona or whatever....like, all the power to them, cool beans.

But I'm always wary whenever the current books describe it as a mutant name rather than a codename or make a big deal out of that aspect because it kinda tries to retroactively paint existing codenames as being something they weren't intended as at first....like Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Iceman, etc....they didn't debut that way because they were trying to use mutant names, it was literally just a secret identity thing as the X-Men originally were meant to...y'know, have those. And its one thing for the concept to expand over the years and for some of them to later embrace the idea that their other names could speak to a kind of mutant culture as well, like there's room to explore that concept on an opt-in basis from one individual character to another, but some writers really layer in this unintentional vibe of 'you're not a real mutant until you have a mutant name' like in Marauders and that's when I'm like whoooooa pump the brakes, fella, you lost me. I was zigging and you went zagging. We are no longer on the same page.

And yet they force Cyclops to become Captain Krakoa due to the interpretation of a vague BS law. So... what does *that* mean, uh?

And people don't see the problem with Krakoa.

[BobbysWorld]

And yet they force Cyclops to become Captain Krakoa due to the interpretation of a vague BS law. So... what does *that* mean, uh?

And people don't see the problem with Krakoa.

Honestly, I think people over-inflate the idea that there are tons of fans who don't see anything wrong with Krakoa. I mean don't get me wrong, there certainly are fans that's true of, I just don't think its as much of a truism as people make it out to be. Like, as much as people posting about things they currently like don't often tend to give much focus to the inherent problems that exist in it, I think its equally true - but not as acknowledged - that there are people who are just determined to only see the negatives about the current era and not face the fact that many of the writers have vastly different takes and executions of the current era, and its not just some one size fits all thing.

Its one hundred percent true that there's a lot to criticize in specific elements of Krakoa's more isolationist policies or exclusionist takes.....but I often see people making direct comparisons between Krakoa and the Inhumans and other literal isolationist Marvel civilizations, and that's just not a valid comparison. Just because Krakoa doesn't have an open door policy and there's stuff to be said about that doesn't mean that mutants are holing themselves up on this island and ignoring the rest of the world like a lot of critics of the current era are treating as a matter of fact. With zero acknowledgment that no, a key part of the current books is also that a team of X-Men have a treehouse on the West Side and have a mission statement of protecting the whole world as goodwill ambassadors for mutantkind, and since when does that have a direct equivalent in Inhuman or Atlantean society, y'know? Or the fact that plenty of mutants DO come and go from the island regularly, that humans like Kyle and Brian Braddock are regulars there while lots of the characters in New Mutants have family members off the island that they visit regularly. Or I mean the Hellfire Gala might have been a flex, but you can't point that out but also at the same time ignore that it was very much NOT mutants isolating themselves from everyone else, it was a literal party that they were the hosts of.

Part of the reason I was so bummed about the Franklin Richards retcon was because he IS such a well-established character and so integral to the Fantastic Four that there was NEVER any danger of him just being completely assimilated into the X-books and separated from the FF. It was flat out never going to happen. Which meant as long as he was around and present in the X-books, it was EQUALLY inevitable that this would have to be balanced with his presence in the Fantastic Four book and events, and require him being written as straddling 'both worlds' or franchises and coming and going regularly....and effectively acting as a bridge between them. Like I know so many people who are critics of the current X-direction expressed relief at Franklin not being a mutant, because it kept him away from the creepy cult aspects of Krakoa and it was just like.....gah, but a character like Franklin is precisely HOW YOU PUSH BACK against the creepy cult aspects of Krakoa! In their haste to just see him far away from a direction they don't like, there's an avoidance of acknowledging the potential he had to redirect the X-books in a way that WOULD be more palatable to the very people critical of certain things.

And it just ends up creating this impression of a lot of people just being completely willing to scrap the whole Krakoan concept and write it all off as a lost cause simply because Bad Aspects Exist. But I don't see any of the more critical posters acknowledging that like just because some aren't willing to look past the negative aspects to the positive doesn't mean that people who are choosing to focus on the positive aspects are OBLIVIOUS to the negative. Some of us just for all the current flaws (AND desire to see those flaws addressed and changed IN STORY, just like the Avengers and FF books have always had human heroes tangling with the worst aspects of their own governments in an attempt to make things better, without just saying 'guess we should just overthrow the whole country, it was a mistake'), like some of us do see and want all that AND still like the sheer amount of creativity being poured into doing stuff with the X-books that are actually NEW and not just endless rehashes of the same near-extinction stories and mutants always on the run that have characterized the X-books since at least M-Day.

Sorry to pop off like this, but I don't begrudge people for being focused on the negative elements of the current books, OR critical of them, because there's every reason TO be! The part that's frustrating though is the kind of implicitly smug tone that like anybody talking about anything other than the flaws in Krakoa is just too naive or clueless to see that they're there at all, when that's not actually a foregone conclusion just because at the time of making a given post, a poster is like, just excited about an element of the current books that's new and interesting.

But I think most of us on both sides of the equation are of the opinion that Hickman originally skewed the Krakoan concept heavily towards its flaws, because he didn't intend for it to last, and it was meant to be an indictment of things like nationalism, etc. However....Hickman left, and its also largely agreed its because the rest of the writers didn't WANT to just use Krakoa as a morality fable and toss out all the potential it holds to be explored on its own merits.

(And I'd argue at least SOME of the writers, being marginalized themselves which notably isn't true of Hickman, seem to hold stances of 'hmmm its a bit yikes to just use a nation of marginalized people building a refuge for themselves as nothing but a takedown of nationalistic ideologies, with the value it holds as a refuge and launching ground for new communities and solidarity being viewed of lesser importance.' Which is something I've definitely thought a lot myself since the start of this current era, with full awareness of how Hickman seemed to prioritize his talking points. I like Hickman's creativity and a lot of what he set in motion, but I'm glad to have the opportunity to see other writers explore the nuances he unintentionally opened up room for but had no personal insights to himself).

But all that just means there's a lot of concepts that were DESIGNED to be problematic at the outset....and they can't just be handwaved away. Changing certain trajectories requires actual WORK be put into that. And some writers, like Duggan, I don't trust with that work, lol. But others like Ayala and Orlando and LaValle and Ewing, I DO....but they have to be given the opportunity TO actually work on the flawed aspects of Krakoa and make something of them and the awareness of them....and Destiny of X is basically the first 'stage' of post-Hickman Krakoa and the first opportunity TO steer it in brand new directions, and its literally only started.

Anyway, again, as I said, don't mean to bite your head off, but its just frustrating seeing it acted like anybody who likes ANYTHING about the current X-direction just doesn't get how its problematic. And that's not a given. Its just as often true IMO that many of us see the flaws but aren't willing to write off the whole era's potential when there's nothing inherent about those flaws that says they HAVE to exist in the current X-direction....a lot of them exist because one writer deliberately PUT them there with a point....that is no longer the inevitable endgame for Krakoan society, and doesn't have to be.

But meanwhile I just don't see a ton of the current era's critics acknowledging that just because shitty aspects exist and SHOULD be critically scrutinized, that there's not still stuff worth salvaging and expanding upon. And in fact, I see a LOT of conflating things and hyperbole extending those shitty aspects far beyond how they actually are portrayed in the books and just taking them to their worst possible conclusion and acted like that's already a matter of fact and a given, when like....that's often just not accurate.

I guess what I'm saying is what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and I don't want critics of the current era to stop being critical of stuff, I just want them to acknowledge when their criticism crosses firmly into territory best described as Facts Not In Evidence, and all without acknowledgment some of these elements simply are not as extreme as they're being painted as, and thus COULD still be plausibly walked back or change course. Its almost like various critics are determined to make some of the more criticism worthy elements SO extreme it becomes COMPLETELY implausible they could ever be changed or mitigated....which strikes me as an indicator some just have completely made up their minds and view everything about the current era as irredeemable and just want it all thrown away ASAP. And though I'm responding to you directly, this is just a conversation piece, not me saying I think this is true of you, GS, but in general I do think its disingenuous for people to couch their approach to things that CAN be changed and improved upon as criticism when really they have no actual desire to see those things changed or improved upon and just want it gone. Because I view criticism as a necessary tool in the aim of making things better. "I just don't like this and never will" is something I see as entirely different. The two aren't interchangeable, and that's worth noting.