We all have good and valid points and we want the best for Jean!
I see the DP as a problem since that is all people seem to remember about Jean and the PF, which is why I prefer New portrayals of the Phoenix Jean story/ies WITHOUT the DP aspect.
This mess all started with the original creators who tangled the webs of Jean gaining superior powers, then changing from "the weakest to the strongest" idea, from being a solar-enhanced energy being changed into the Mightiest of Psychics as Jean reached her ultimate potential as a psi, to "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" themes.
Even in the DP Saga, Jean mentions that there are two beings, both separate and unique, Phoenix and Jean Grey--symbiosis--the Phoenix who provides her life force and Jean who provides a living focus. So much for Jean reaching her ultimate potential as a psi. Sadly, the mess they made then is even messier today.
I see Jean mighty powerful from the beginning and really increasing by the end of the original run. When the New X-Men debuted, Jean felt very confident in her powers and control, enough to leave the Professor and the school and go out into the world on her own. That was 1975. The Jean of 2022 is Uber-more-powerful, confident, skillful and in control of her thoughts, emotions and actions.
Anyone who thinks Jean is a "push-over" without the PF, is ill-informed and in for a rude awakening when they read instances stating otherwise.
[Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]
"Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."
Like a Red Dragon, The Phoenix shall Soar in 2024!
For the sake of discussion, what if her relationship with the Phoenix Force is completely severed and she doesn't manifest her “pink form” again? How will that ultimately impact your love for and enjoyment of her and her continuously unfolding story? Will you think to yourself, “Oh, no, she's been ruined!”? I'm curious.
This feels good to read. Even though I've had and expressed my moments of cynicism towards and impatience with this thread, I'm happy it's active and that it brings people like yourself joy. Also, you can definitely count me as one of those fans who is happy with how she is currently being depicted and optimistic about her future. More than anything else, I feel at peace with her as a character and sit content with the knowledge that she has a lot of positive and progressive developments, both in the comic books and other mediums, such as television, lined up.
This is true: No matter who else they give it to, discussions regarding the Phoenix will always begin and end with Jean. Hell, to this day, the creator of the Phoenix Force (Claremont) refuses to consider anyone but Jean Phoenix, which is a sentiment shared by many fans and even detractors. That being said, in the end, I'm glad the Dark Phoenix Saga was semi-retconned to bring Jean back. Since that iconic and groundbreaking tale, she's had so many rich and moving moments and stories that have only added to and deepened her mythos. Frankly, though the impact of her death at the end of the Saga is undeniable—I still tear up whenever I read it—it isn't plausible that she would have remained dead. Then again, even Claremont admitted this in his interview with The Comic Book Journal. I mean, she plunged into a star and remained there until it went supernova. If that didn't kill her, neither would have an ancient Kree machine. So, I've always considered the decision to bring her back just and right.
Yes, Jean fans are certainly varied in terms of what they love most about her, which I think is a testament to her complexity. However, after everything she and her fans have been through, namely prolonged absences—and pardon me if this comes across as dismissive and insensitive—I find all of this hoping and worrying regarding her connection to the Phoenix both futile and detrimental to one’s enjoyment of her story and journey as it unfolds. It also detracts from discussions that could be had regarding other possibilities for her and directions in which she can be taken. Still, I am aware that I can't expect or force people to let go of their attachment to Phoenix and discuss other things. Besides, I've gone through my own phase of believing that Jean's relationship with the Phoenix was too important to change or let go of. But, as I've stated before, I no longer feel that way. Ultimately, she means more to me than her time as Phoenix.
I loved the summary. It's good to remind everyone of how many times Jean has tried to make amends for the destruction of D'Bari, which also cost her her entire family.
I'll ask you the same questions I asked MechaJeanix above: What if her relationship with the Phoenix Force is completely severed? How will that ultimately impact your love for and enjoyment of her and her continuously unfolding story?
This would depend on who the writer is, but it would definitely be interesting and handy tool to have!
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
I would be fine because I feel like her connection is currently nonexistent so it wouldn't change anything. Plus we've been there before during the X-factor years and early 90s. Rosenberg acted like he did something new with Jean's status quo after Phoenix Resurrection, but it felt like a return to the late 80s/early 90s.
I also would be fine if she doesn't do the pink form, but it is annoying that it isn't used. I wish it would return, and I would prefer some sort of lasting connection to the Phoenix in some way (even in a small way), but they aren't necessary for me to enjoy Jean Grey and the X-men. It would just be icing on the cake to get one or more of those things, but I really love how Jean is portrayed right now - a strong empathic leader who is trying in her own way to make the world (and universe) a better (and safer) place. I think there is a lot yet to mine with Jean and not only her powers but her relationship to the other X-men and I want them to explore more of Cyke's and Jean's dream for Krakoa (whether it is the role of the X-men or changes in Krakoan government - as Jean thinks the QC should be elected).
Judgement Day is exciting because there is a lot we don't know yet about Jean's role (and how or if she will be judged). It is an interesting time for sure. On a superficial level I am loving Jean's current costume. She has the look deserving of a major (and founding) X-man!
I bought the Phoenix omnibus the other day and I still love the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix sagas (though my fav Phoenix story is probably Morrison's New X-men run), but you are right that Claremont used competing explanations of what the Phoenix was and what exactly happened to Jean. It was this wishy washiness that contributed to others creating the retcon. Such is comics. But even with the retcon the story in the Dark Phoenix Saga was a story about Jean Grey. When you read the story she is still the heart of it and as long as it is acknowledged that Jean was part of the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix (per conclusion of Inferno and other stories) I am good.
You are right that Jean is an awesome character even when taking out the Phoenix stories. I loved her in X-factor, the 90s, the Teen Jean era, and the current era. Jean does have some big themes and they include her love life, her expanding powers, and the Phoenix - we'll be arguing about each forever (or until they stop telling stories about them).
The Phoenix stuff seemed over until they announced this story by Gillen that is supposed to finally explain the relationship. This is something I expected and wanted from the Teen Jean solo run (it got close but didn't fully explain it).
My love for Jean will remain the same, she is my favourite character in a way no other character is. If her connection to Phoenix is completely severed, I will remain in exactly the same stance that I am now, thinking is just a way to strip her of her elements for no reason, and I will keep ranting about it lol. I have that stance now because the current status quo is exactly that scenario: she is currently severed from anything Phoenix, per Phoenix Resurrection. Rosenberg himself said that his intention was a divorce between Jean and Phoenix.
I've loved Jean as/with the Phoenix (past tense) but I love Jean eternally without it (present and future tense).
Lord Ewing *Praise His name! Uplift Him in song!* Your divine works will be remembered and glorified in worship for all eternity. Amen!
I'll reply to posts later, but I wanted to pop in here and share these pages from X-Men: The End #6 (2006) that I posted in the Jean and Logan thread I created in response to MechaJeanix's question. I'd like everyone's thoughts on this. Ever since reading this story, I always thought to myself, I wouldn't mind if they did and made this canon. Claremont's takes on Jean never cease to amaze and enthrall me. Here, he reveals that Jean, Madelyne Pryor, and the Phoenix Force were always one and the same. Madelyne—the missing fragment of Jean’s soul that loved and sacrificed her life for Scott on the shuttle—returns to Jean, who saves all creation by reuniting Xavier and Cassandra and completing the Tree of Life, though at a cost. As uncannyxmen.net notes:
The Tree of life is a mystical concept within the Kabbalah of Judaism, which is used to understand the nature of God and the manner in which He created the world ex nihilo. The Kabbalists developed this concept into a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a "map" of Creation. The tree of life has been called the "cosmology" of the Kabbalah.
The earliest texts which describe the tree of life are the Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer Raziel Hamelech, and — probably the most influential — the Zohar. The latter describes the tree of life as being a sort of diagram (although not necessarily a physical one) that has 10 (sometimes 11) Sephirot and 22 (sometimes 24) paths which interconnect the various Sephirot. Each Sephirah and path is said to have a different characteristic — for example, a different number, letter, physical feature, planet, etc. There is much disagreement over the attributes which each Sephirah and path possess. Even the earliest texts have major disagreements with each other and with themselves, depending on the edition.
Positions in the tree of life and the Sephirah they correspond to:
Top: Xavier/Cassandra = Keter. (The Supreme Crown): The meaning "crown" corresponds, in particular, to "the head of nothingness," the source of Divine pleasure in the soul. The "crown" symbolizes the spiritual power to receive and integrate into one's consciousness the pleasure of Divine revelation, as our sages express with regard to the world to come: "the righteous sit with their crowns on their heads and receive pleasure from the radiance of the Divine Presence
Middle: Jean/Madelyne = Tipheret (Glory, Beauty): Tipheret represents the ideal balance of Justice and Mercy needed for proper running of the universe.
Below that: Scott =Yesod (Foundation): Yesod is the channel through which Tiferet strives to unite with the Shekhinah and pass on the creative and benevolent divine forces.
Bottom: Magneto = Shekhinah (God’s presence, Kingdom): The Shekhinah is a Talmudic concept representing God's dwelling and immanence in the created world. It was equated with the "Keneset Yisrael," the personified spirit of the People of Israel.
Top of the left branch: Kitty = Binah (Understanding, discernment): Binah refers to the analytic, distinguishing aspects of God's thought.
Below: Cable = Din (Judgment, Might, Power): This Sefirah represents the fearsome powers of divine punishment and wrath in the world. This power is needed to maintain control over the universe. However the destructive forces necessary to keep order and exact punishment also contain the seeds of demonic Evil: the "Other Side" (Sitra Ahra).
Below: Rachel = Hod (Majesty): Hod represents the lower channel through which God's judgment comes down to the world. It is also associated with the power of prophecy.
Top of the right branch: Nightcrawler = Hokhmah (Wisdom): Hokhmah represents the contemplative, synthetic aspects of God's thought. It is the primordial point of creation from which all knowable reality originates.
Below: Wolverine = Hesed (Love, Long Kindness, compassion): Hesed represents the generous, benevolent (masculine) side of God.
Below: Storm = Nezah (Eternity, endurance, victory): This Sefirah represents God's active grace in the world.
While Kitty addresses the journalist she is talking to as Manoli, it is clear that the artist meant her to be somebody else, as she is much too young.
Robert Kennedy’s quote: “We have met the enemy.”
Among those X-Men that have survived at the end: Iceman, Karma, unidentified Asian woman (possibly Karma’s sister Nga), Alice Whedon , Marie D’Acanto, Aliyah Bishop, Lucas Bishop, X-23, Wolverine, Psylocke, unidentified blackhaired woman (possibly Karima Shapandar or Monet), Beast, Cecilia Reyes, Cannonball, Mystique, Emma Frost, Nightcrawler, Nocturne.
X-Men shown to have died: Sage, Archangel, Storm, Madelyne Pryor, Dazzler, Lilandra, Dust, Hub, Cyclops, Magneto, Charles Xavier, Polaris, Colossus, Cable, Cassandra Nova, Phoenix, Marvel Girl, Captain Britain, Juggernuat, Northstar, Wolfsbane, Rogue, Gambit, Domino, Feral, Shatterstar, James Proudstar.
It is somewhat unclear as to why some X-Men survived and some didn’t: for example Nightcrawler was part of the Tree of Life and apparently survived. Storm on the other hand didn’t.
Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):
"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
"Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."
I’m a fan of Jean, no matter what. Without or without the Phoenix or the pink form. She still kicks butt without them. She has clearly done great feats without either the pink form or Phoenix. She’s going to kick but this summer, but Indint know what power manifestation she will have. We will have to see.