Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Mercury]

Just to add, the more Marvel tries to create a new phoenix the more it has to explain the phoenix which is never a good thing for any cosmic entity. At this point it looks like a parasite and that will have to be explained more so than it's connection. How many times can the story of the phoenix be retold, in truth Jean does not suffer from losing phoenix but phoenix does suffer losing Jean. So i think a more appropriate question would be "does the phoenix really matter without Jean?" My answer would be i don't think so. Even with rachel a lot of the excitement was still because of the connection to Jean. Jean is actually more popular than the phoenix but the phoenix is what people want to make popular.

Truth and, again: :*)

[Saithor]

The idea is typically fine, the execution is not. Poor Thor.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Just to add, the more Marvel tries to create a new phoenix the more it has to explain the phoenix which is never a good thing for any cosmic entity. At this point it looks like a parasite and that will have to be explained more so than it's connection. How many times can the story of the phoenix be retold, in truth Jean does not suffer from losing phoenix but phoenix does suffer losing Jean. So i think a more appropriate question would be "does the phoenix really matter without Jean?" My answer would be i don't think so. Even with rachel a lot of the excitement was still because of the connection to Jean. Jean is actually more popular than the phoenix but the phoenix is what people want to make popular.

Well said.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't listen to anyone bothering me about how Jean will never be Phoenix again because for one I know it'll be about some sexist and/or shipping BS like it always is.

We know who the Phoenix is.

[BobbysWorld]

Tbh, the wtf-aficionado in me just takes a perverse delight in their attempts to separate Jean from the Phoenix, because IMO the funniest thing about BOTH Marvel and DC has always been how many creators simply do not understand the assignment that is writing in a work-for-hire universe they have no ability to control once they're gone. So there's so much ego on display in how many big name creators are just obsessed with making sure they leave their mark on a franchise via the DEFINITIVE ruling on a character or concept, that like, will absolutely be the only take on it going forward and that no later writers will ever undo or contradict. And its like. LOL. You're all so cute the way you literally insist on not getting that none of you have the power to enforce your specific take never being undermined or contradicted by anyone else when expanding on ideas you couldn't see coming because you didn't have them.

So I mostly just LOL and roll my eyes like 'oh you crazy kids' whenever writers talk a big game about how they've changed a character or take on an iconic concept forever and ever, because its like, sit down. You're not Nostradamus. Just tell us a good story and we'll be fine, that's literally all your job is.

*Shrugs* And thus I honestly just don't take any writer claims about separating Jean from the Phoenix for good all that seriously, because like, I can believe they mean it or even that they're sure they've written a story that makes it impossible anyone will ever write Jean as the Phoenix or want to again.....but like, I'm equally sure that any writer to kill off an obscure mutant they hated in the past thirty years figured the chances of that character ever being brought back would be nil, because which of them could have foreseen Hickman's handy-dandy mass resurrection tool for obscure niche mutants?

I'm just like calm down about changing a character or franchise take forever and just write the stories you want to write and accept that if later writers want to retcon your stuff for their own reasons, they'll find a way if they feel strongly enough about it, same as you all did with all the stuff you didn't like or agree with about the characters when you arrived on the scene. People have been obsessing over redefining the Phoenix and its relationship to Jean for decades at this point and its like, you can't put certain genies back in the bottle once they've captivated enough fans' interest or imaginations, and for as many people who hate Jean intertwined with the Phoenix, there's others who love it. You can make sure there's no connection between the two during your own specific tenure, because that's your preferred take, but you can't MAKE fans who DO love the connection just like, get over it and no longer feel emotionally invested in it. So there's never going to be anything that absolutely eliminates any chance of one of those fans someday becoming a breakout superstar writer with a ton of creative capital at Marvel, allowing them free reign to reignite the Jean-as-Phoenix concept all over again no matter how many obstacles were thrown up in the way of that, as long as they can creatively figure out a way around said obstacles.

Anyway, that's just my take and like I said, that's why it doesn't really bother me when writers try to dramatically alter how concepts like the Phoenix are engaged with. It mostly just ends up producing a lot of off the wall **** that's kinda hysterical to contemplate when lining up wildly divergent takes next to each other. Like, it technically still wouldn't be that hard for a writer ten years from now to pop up with a new take like "this is how all Phoenix manifestations have technically been Jean all along yes even the one with the million year old mutant who was Thor's mom"....which means instead of Aaron's current stuff somehow STREAMLINING the Phoenix concept or making various Phoenix stories less ridiculous....that combo of takes opens the door to all kinds of absurdity like Thor saying some **** to Jean in a future Avengers and X-Men conflict and Wolverine just being like "boy, don't you talk back to your metaphysically reincarnated sorta-kinda mama, that woman technically sorta kinda brought you into this world and you need to show her some respect for that, dammit." Cue Cable, Rachel, Nate, etc: see, this is why we just don't bother with Christmas card lists. Where would we even start. Where would it all even stop.

[Mercury]

I’ll respond to BobbysWorld later—I can’t right now because I’m in another meeting 😭—but I just wanted to say Russell Dauterman retweeted my tweet regarding the omnibus! /dead

https://mobile.twitter.com/Jean_RED_...99606944288773

[Mercury]

Chiiile…

[The Thunderbird]

Chiiile…

I remember admins from a Jean Grey Facebook group talking about this picture a while back. But this was the first time I've actually seen it.

[Aeon]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a question about the Phoenix‘ origin:

So it was said that the PF is a primordial force of the universe. Burns away what doesn’t work, etc. etc.

With that Echo series now running, it seems that the PF is of Native American/indigenous origin.

Here comes tomorrow showed us alien hosts, and Thor’s mother wasn’t really indigenous I think?

Is there a canon origin at all?

[Starchilde]

Please forgive my ignorance, but I have a question about the Phoenix‘ origin:

So it was said that the PF is a primordial force of the universe. Burns away what doesn’t work, etc. etc.

With that Echo series now running, it seems that the PF is of Native American/indigenous origin.

Here comes tomorrow showed us alien hosts, and Thor’s mother wasn’t really indigenous I think?

Is there a canon origin at all?

The first one is the closest. Originally there wasn’t even a force and it was just Jean transcending her own psychic powers to the highest. Then it was revealed to be a force of life, in Classic X-Men there’s a story where Jean talks with Death and he mentions that “the Phoenix is a Force, and your unique gift is to be the one destined to wield it, like the sword Excalibur was to King Arthur”.

Personally I chose to ignore the now “proposed” origins of Phoenix as a being born of an specific culture, it’s neither Native American, Nordic or from KunLun. It’s from the cosmos itself. The only origins that I care about are those that are linked to Jean, after all they follow one same story, unlike Echo,Thor, Fongji or whatever that deviate the story more and more. And linking the Phoenix to an specific culture that it’s not Jean’s make Jean seems like she doesn’t belong to the Phoenix which is the most ironic thing Marvel has done lol.

[WallStreeter]

I don't need to think about whether or not i will accept anything if i'm told Jean will never be phoenix because as canon states "now and forever she is phoenix." i can accept 1 million bc, echo phoenix etc etc, but there will never be another phoenix as popular as Jean, no other character will ever be tied to the creation of Phoenix and all research will always lead back to Jean. So my answer would be i don't need someone else to acknowledge something that will live in my heart forever more. I can silently smile and say keep trying. In honesty i usually find the attempts at trying to "find a better phoenix" entertaining but not for the expected reason. Mjjonir will also belong to thor no matter who wields it, pretty much the same concept. But what i can do is accept it and not need to continuously mention Jean connection to it because i have my memories and that's enough.

I love this post. That you don’t need someone else to acknowledge whet your know to be trye. Honestly, give Jean back the pink psionic powers and have her reclaim the codename Phoenix and use the pink raptors. She has beaten Galactus with it. She doesn’t need the continuity mess of the Force. Let Echo keep it.

We saw Xorna Jean beat Phoenix Quentin, after all.

[otipep_90]

I posted this in another thread, but I think deserves to be posted here too.

The story may not contradict itself. For what I know from real life abusers, they always place the blame on the abused: they wanted it, they didn't said no, they didn't fought enough.
Claremont is very clever on doing dual point of views: some people gonna side with the rapist and others ( I hope the majority) gonna pick the survivor.
I trust more on a hero than a freaking villain

This is very understated. For Mastermind Jean’s dark desires fit his and the Hellfire’s antebellum notions and aesthetics, but to Jean her desire was unrestrained power and sensuality, which was hinted at repeatedly. Claremont wrote many layers within the story. Mastermind imposed control over Jean by systematically dismantling her true self and building new distorted persona with radically different beliefs. This is brainwash.

If the story skipped over the Hellfire Club brainwashing and went straight into the Dark Phoenix. Then there wouldn’t have been a racists antebellum corset wearing ‘Black Queen/Lady Grey’ persona. It would be a completely different story. It would be a misogynistic story about how a young woman couldn’t handle great power and responsibility.

Unintentionally many Marvel writers have misinterpreted the DPS or have intentionally avoided the themes of rape, abuse, and trauma. The villains of the story were Mastermind and the Hellfire Club not the PF. This is why we have ended up with the PF being a caricature villain cackling away and possessing people at random or by accident. More ludicrous is the new interpretation of the PF as a toxic ex-partner or parent, instead of a cosmic abstract of life and death meant to fulfill a role.

The originally story did not have the consequential genocide of the D’bari. That was a decision made by the artist which inadvertently created a chain reaction.

So Marvel chose to punish Jean (the victim) instead of making her into a survivor like Claremont originally intended in the the alternate ending in ‘Phoenix: The Untold Story’.

This is why I agree that Morrison’s take on the PF has been the only adequate portrayal beyond Claremont’s. I.E. the Phoenix is inherited by genes/bloodline, it burns away what does not work (Phoenix Work), and esoteric themes of reaching a higher level of control consciousness and reuniting with a Devine being.

This is why when Jean Grey eventually gets the Phoenix Force again she needs a true destiny fulfilled story. It also needs to be big one like repairing the M’Kraan Crystal, HCT, X-Men the End or what the followup to Second Coming should have been before Marvel decided Hope Summers would become a separate character and the Avengers would get involved. A new Phoenix Saga that can become a milestone story with Jean staying alive, sane, and reclaiming her iconography. She has more than earned the Phoenix name and rapport.

[jwatson]

I love this post. That you don’t need someone else to acknowledge whet your know to be trye. Honestly, give Jean back the pink psionic powers and have her reclaim the codename Phoenix and use the pink raptors. She has beaten Galactus with it. She doesn’t need the continuity mess of the Force. Let Echo keep it.

We saw Xorna Jean beat Phoenix Quentin, after all.

This would be perfect. They can name the Phoenix bird whatever they want but i do think Jean should at least get the codename. and i say that because she did use the codename when she was not phoenix, granted the story was dropped and i'm not much of a lobdell fan but i remember scott reaction to when she chose the codename phoenix and i always wondered where it was going. I don't even think of phoenix phoenix when i think of the bird so maybe that's it, it's just like an object but Jean is what i care about and i like the idea of her claiming the name and taking ownership of it. But i'm cool if it doesn't happen.

[Aeon]

The first one is the closest. Originally there wasn’t even a force and it was just Jean transcending her own psychic powers to the highest. Then it was revealed to be a force of life, in Classic X-Men there’s a story where Jean talks with Death and he mentions that “the Phoenix is a Force, and your unique gift is to be the one destined to wield it, like the sword Excalibur was to King Arthur”.

Personally I chose to ignore the now “proposed” origins of Phoenix as a being born of an specific culture, it’s neither Native American, Nordic or from KunLun. It’s from the cosmos itself. The only origins that I care about are those that are linked to Jean, after all they follow one same story, unlike Echo,Thor, Fongji or whatever that deviate the story more and more. And linking the Phoenix to an specific culture that it’s not Jean’s make Jean seems like she doesn’t belong to the Phoenix which is the most ironic thing Marvel has done lol.

Cool, thanks for your answer!

[Wiccan]

X Lives preview... Percy is not letting Jean/Logan die I guess.

[Saithor]

X Lives preview... Percy is not letting Jean/Logan die I guess.

He also won't let her speak either.