Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Mercury]

Wasnt expecting to see Hope and Jean in the same panels but loved this

The artist lowkey drew her the way Dauterman does. She looked great.

@Mercury: Jean will always be the Phoenix is some kind of medium. Maybe in another movie or tv show or cartoon or parallel universe story or PS game etc. etc. The Dark Phoenix Saga will remain one of the most iconic stories of all time. No writer can separate Jean from her history. they tried really hard but it never works out.

sooo, I think it is not really important if the current comicbooks version of her has it or not. I also expect the comicbooks to loose their quality again quite soon and I will probably go back re-reading old runs in the near future (I'm looking at you Grant Morrison Omnibus and Inferno Omnibus!!). Hence, I don't think my fandom needs Jean to restore her iconic power set and relationship to the Phoenix in the current books because she is anyhow somewhere always still The Phoenix! Her history is so vast and long, the present is not that important.

And if this is how you feel, you're entitled to that! I would persuade you to be content with the fact that the public at large, comprising both diehard comic book fans and laypeople, consider Jean to be Phoenix "always and forever" and to just move on and enjoy her development now, but I don't want to impose my thoughts and feelings on you. However, this is what I think and feel: 1) As I've said before, Jean's time-displacement run made me both fall in love with her in a whole new way and realize the fertile possibilities of her story and character when not tied to being Phoenix, and. 2) I'm just enjoying where the writers are slowly taking her and content with knowing that there are exciting plans for her.

Also, it's pointless for any of us to declare anything as fact regarding Jean's relationship to the Phoenix Force for two reasons: 1) Marvel has left it a mystery, despite retcons that were seemingly geared to defining or redefining it, which only reinforced her special connection to it, and 2) apparently, Gillen's take will be the final word (at least for now), and that doesn't drop until October.

[Lukmendes]

I don't think people who don't want Jean to become Phoenix again and complain when Marvel "throws [it] around" are contradicting themselves or being disingenuous. Some fans don't want her to become Phoenix again simply because, in a sense, they're traumatized by what has happened to her every time she has become Phoenix—namely, she's been killed off for years. However, they may not want the Phoenix given to every other superhero, which seems to be the pattern, because they feel it diminishes Jean's Phoenix stories and overall lore. Other fans may feel the same regarding the Phoenix being bestowed upon others, but may not want Jean becoming Phoenix because they feel it in some way distances her as a character from them. To be clear, I've interacted with fans who have expressed to me all of the above.

Yeah the Phoenix being used around at random cheapens her, and it also weird 'cause Captain Universe exists as the random cosmic power up.

I mean ****, I have a friend who's not a fan of X-Men, but thought the Phoenix Force was cool, but me telling him how so many characters randomly getting it made him lose interest, I assume others would share this mentality.

I don't think Ororo's statement is weird for the reasons I and others have already listed. Of course, it took me aback for a few moments, but then I realized, this is Ororo's point of view, one that she qualifies with "perhaps" and doesn't claim to be the absolute truth. It is not a narrative declaration. In either case, your statement regarding Jean's feats and Xavier's reactions instantly brought to mind this scene in which he notes that Jean transferring her psyche into Emma's body (without the help of a machine or any other augmentation) is "something Jean has never been able to do before!" I can't recall if Xavier has accomplished this feat, though he very well have:

I'm not saying Storm's statement is weird, I'm saying the reaction around here is lol.

To explain better (Since admittedly the wording was vague), I was talking about how there's the assumption that, because Storm said he's perhaps the strongest telepath of all, it's supposed to be gospel that Jean is weaker than him now, and how it's weird to assume it like this.

All she's doing is saying how badass Xavier is given what he just did, even if this is a legit mistake by Ewing (Which can happen, even seemingly goofy mistakes, nobody's perfect even if he's a really good writer and a huge continuity nerd), again, it's fine in-universe given the context of the situation, Storm is just saying he's badass because of what he just did to save Xandra, and to let everyone else know that they have a powerful telepath like him, Jean doesn't have to be validated everytime someone talks about telepathy or telekinesis or whatever.

Like I said before, it could be worded in another way to mention other badass telepaths in Krakoa (Which there are plenty), but that was Xavier's moment, it could be better, but I don't think the way this played out is bad either.

Oh hey, I was thinking about that one when I wrote that lol.

Where does it happen again?

[Phoenixx9]

I feel quite the opposite. Jean hasn’t shown us half of what she can do. I think her potential is so vast and amazing that we cannot grasp what she one day will be able to do. Xavier’s a firecracker and she’s an atom bomb. But at the moment, he is arguably more powerful than her. The difference is that he has reached his potential whereas her potential is unlimited.

Oh I know you do and that is okay. Everyone is entitled to their belief.

But I feel Jean has shown us plenty of what she can do, not everything of course, but a lot. And we are getting better depictions now than in the past.

When Jean became Phoenix she far surpassed Xavier. And today, while not having the cosmic might of the Phoenix, Jean still outpaces him, not just because she is Omega/Omega, but because the student has surpassed the teacher.

The scans Mercury and some others post show us what Jean is capable of doing and her might, even the card that states that Jean has surpassed her mentor.

[juan678]

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

She is there in spirit. Domino instructs Sage to tell Jean to create an island wide psychic blast that orders every Krakoan to hide. Jean (off-screen and speaking through comm-links) tells Sage she will add an undertone of fear to the point of nausea to ensure they don’t ignore the warning.

Lol that's kinda neat. Thanks for the spoils!

[mike7171]

So X-Men Red just added another Omega Mutant to the list. How long before everyone will now be referred to as Omega. And Omegas will be a dime a doze in Krakoa.
And Charles is now referred to Universe's most powerful telepath. Ayayayay.

[Mercury]

Yeah the Phoenix being used around at random cheapens her, and it also weird 'cause Captain Universe exists as the random cosmic power up.

I don't think the Phoenix Force being passed around "cheapens" Jean at all, especially since, as I noted above, Marvel still has not allowed a writer to explicitly define or redefine her relationship to it. That being said, we might be a getting concrete definition or redefinition of Jean and the Phoenix Force's relationship with Gillen's A.X.E.: X-Men #1 in October. We'll just have to wait and see.

I mean ****, I have a friend who's not a fan of X-Men, but thought the Phoenix Force was cool, but me telling him how so many characters randomly getting it made him lose interest, I assume others would share this mentality.

I can see that happening. Hell, I've seen very casual comic book fans or fans of just the animated series or films say things when referring to Echo or other Phoenix-powered characters, "That's not Phoenix. Jean is Phoenix." And again, they don't even follow the X-Men comic books the way we do.

I'm not saying Storm's statement is weird, I'm saying the reaction around here is lol.

To explain better (Since admittedly the wording was vague), I was talking about how there's the assumption that, because Storm said he's perhaps the strongest telepath of all, it's supposed to be gospel that Jean is weaker than him now, and how it's weird to assume it like this.

All she's doing is saying how badass Xavier is given what he just did, even if this is a legit mistake by Ewing (Which can happen, even seemingly goofy mistakes, nobody's perfect even if he's a really good writer and a huge continuity nerd), again, it's fine in-universe given the context of the situation, Storm is just saying he's badass because of what he just did to save Xandra, and to let everyone else know that they have a powerful telepath like him, Jean doesn't have to be validated everytime someone talks about telepathy or telekinesis or whatever.

Like I said before, it could be worded in another way to mention other badass telepaths in Krakoa (Which there are plenty), but that was Xavier's moment, it could be better, but I don't think the way this played out is bad either.

I totally misunderstood you. Also, you're right and bring up some great points that have been repeated by others throughout the last two dozen or so posts in this thread. Admittedly, even I reacted a bit defensively, though playfully, for like 10 seconds, but then I realized that Ororo doesn't even have the requisite power to determine whether a mutant is "the most powerful" or not, so it's an irrelevant statement.

Oh hey, I was thinking about that one when I wrote that lol.

Where does it happen again?

We're psi-linked! It happens in Uncanny X-Men #282, I believe. That whole arc is spread across UXM #'s 281-283, maybe 284, too.

[Tank]

So X-Men Red just added another Omega Mutant to the list. How long before everyone will now be referred to as Omega. And Omegas will be a dime a doze in Krakoa.
And Charles is now referred to Universe's most powerful telepath. Ayayayay.

About Xavier: Keyword is perhaps. It’s not definite and definitely doesnt exclude Jean.

About Forge, not sure if it’s a mistake or not. But if it is writers need to learn to use other synonym. It happens too much. Remember the 2000s when everyone and their mom was labeled omega? Hickman cleaned it up somewhat. And now it seems writers are throwing around the term willy nilly again.

Alternatively I find it funny that things unique or special to Jean or arent meant to be rare are often diluted. Ex omega. For the longest time it was just jean and bobby and then more and more people got named.

Same with phoenix.

[Tank]

I hate when artists draw Jean running. She can fly!!

[Lukmendes]

I don't think the Phoenix Force being passed around "cheapens" Jean at all, especially since, as I noted above, Marvel still has not allowed a writer to explicitly define or redefine her relationship to it. That being said, we might be a getting concrete definition or redefinition of Jean and the Phoenix Force's relationship with Gillen's A.X.E.: X-Men #1 in October. We'll just have to wait and see.

I meant it cheapens Phoenix herself, not Jean.

Man, two misunderstandings in a row, I need to relearn how to write lol.

I can see that happening. Hell, I've seen very casual comic book fans or fans of just the animated series or films say things when referring to Echo or other Phoenix-powered characters, "That's not Phoenix. Jean is Phoenix." And again, they don't even follow the X-Men comic books the way we do.

Well, she's mostly the one who has the Phoenix in adaptations outside of comics, some games even have her being called Phoenix too, or at least have her costume (And occasionally Phoenix is a gameplay mechanic, like being able to resurrect after dying, or just having Dark Phoenix like in Marvel vs Capcom 3), I think the only time Jean didn't get Phoenix was in that Wolverine and the X-Men cartoon, since Stepford Cuckos get it, even then the story makes it clear that Phoenix wanted Jean originally.

So yeah, for people who don't check comics, it can be unlikely they'll even know Rachel had the Phoenix for a long time lol.

I'm pretty sure I didn't know about Rachel back when I kinda checked out AvX for the first time, and I probably assumed Hope was related to Jean in some way because of the Summers last name and her getting the Phoenix at all.

We're psi-linked! It happens in Uncanny X-Men #282, I believe. That whole arc is spread across UXM #'s 281-283, maybe 284, too.

Was in UXM#283, thanks.

About Xavier: Keyword is perhaps. It’s not definite and definitely doesnt exclude Jean.

About Forge, not sure if it’s a mistake or not. But if it is writers need to learn to use other synonym. It happens too much. Remember the 2000s when everyone and their mom was labeled omega? Hickman cleaned it up somewhat. And now it seems writers are throwing around the term willy nilly again.

Can't wait for the return of the "Beyond Omega" .

I hate when artists draw Jean running. She can fly!!

Hey, she has to exercise once in a while, let her run a bit .

[Mercury]

I meant it cheapens Phoenix herself, not Jean.

Man, two misunderstandings in a row, I need to relearn how to write lol.

Oh, no, Luke! You write beautifully.

spoilers:

I know it's Luk; I just wanted to mess with you

end of spoilers

Well, she's mostly the one who has the Phoenix in adaptations outside of comics, some games even have her being called Phoenix too, or at least have her costume (And occasionally Phoenix is a gameplay mechanic, like being able to resurrect after dying, or just having Dark Phoenix like in Marvel vs Capcom 3...

I'm not nor ever have been a gamer, so I'm totally unfamiliar with this. It just goes to show you that as far as the general public goes, Jean is Phoenix and vice versa. That reminds me, I remember the Chief Creative Director of Epic Games teased and later introduced Jean as Dark Phoenix to Fortnite. I only remember it because people made such a big deal and kept messaging me about it. Mustard hinted at this a few weeks prior to the release with the following charming tweet:

Did you ever have the most perfect pair of jeans ever? And then one day they inexplicably disappeared?! And you were like… I bet ‘they’ are to blame!!! Yeah. That one. The one that didn’t like ‘em. But I loved ‘em. They made me feel great. And comfy.

Tweet: https://twitter.com/DonaldMustard/st...28809206943746

Was in UXM#283, thanks.

I'm terrible at remembering issue #'s and such.

Can't wait for the return of the "Beyond Omega" .

Oh gawd, lmao.

[MechaJeanix]

I liked that Jean had a cameo in X-men Red. I would love to see her interact with Storm though. I don't mind Xavier being described by Storm as powerful. He is powerful and plus he has an power enhancing helmet on his head that further allows him to do big things. I don't think it diminishes Jean or Quire.

Forge being labeled as omega was a bit odd, but such is comics. Writers and editors are not so unlike us fans, many want their fav or pet characters to be omega. I do hope we don't get to a point again where everyone is omega level (I'm looking at you Emma, Betsy, Rachel, Cuckoos, Kwannon, etc.).

I also loved Jean's brief moment in X-force.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I liked that Jean had a cameo in X-men Red. I would love to see her interact with Storm though. I don't mind Xavier being described by Storm as powerful. He is powerful and plus he has an power enhancing helmet on his head that further allows him to do big things. I don't think it diminishes Jean or Quire.

Forge being labeled as omega was a bit odd, but such is comics. Writers and editors are not so unlike us fans, many want their fav or pet characters to be omega. I do hope we don't get to a point again where everyone is omega level (I'm looking at you Emma, Betsy, Rachel, Cuckoos, Kwannon, etc.).

I also loved Jean's brief moment in X-force.

Didn't Fraction make Emma Omega nearly 20 years ago now?

[MechaJeanix]

Didn't Fraction make Emma Omega nearly 20 years ago now?

Don’t make me feel old by pointing out how long ago that was. Lol It feels like yesterday not many, many years ago. For me, that’s when the omega label lost meaning when characters like Emma and Betsy were described as such. No offense to either character, but I just don’t see them being on that level. Writers lost sight of the concept and abused it.

While I disagree with Hickman placing Jean as only an omega telepath I did like that he had streamlined the concept. Of course then they went and added more omegas. They just can’t stop expanding the list. I wish we would get an updated data page one day with all the Arrako ones.

[Omega_DCD]

I forgot to give thanks to those posters that either agreed with me or at least could see where I was coming from. And geez, these forums needn't be so binary...there are gradients between the extremes and a critique is not a "bash".

To the rest of the thread, if Xavier is indeed considered "the most powerful telepath in the universe," as per Ororo's allusion, Jean is still undoubtedly the most powerful telepath on the planet, lol.

Come on, people, the writers are having fun, our girl is in a great place, and the flagship titles—i.e., X-Men, X-Men: Red, and Immortal X-Men—are on fire! Let's enjoy and have fun with this!

These are some of my favorite Jean narrative panels, but they don't exist in a vacuum. There's always a "page before" or "bigger picture" or asterisk somewhere. For the panel when Jean is about to "reprogram " Frenzy, it still places a caveat with Xavier...



And as for the Wolverine issue when Scott gets infected with the nanosentinels...the whole post-Onslaught era, Bastion/O:ZT, up until after "The Search for Xavier", Xavier was depowered...so occasionally Jean got some "de facto" accolades as the most powerful telepath, but as noted above, it soon reverted back to type.