Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[johnnysv75]

Just wanted to share here too, already posted in the storm thread but wanted to make sure i shared. Appreciated the kind words the other day on the singing picture of Jean/Storm.

Lovely work! As always!

[johnnysv75]

I wonder if they will work on building some kind of relationship (non-romantic) between Cyclops and Echo based on their shared connection to the Phoenix. He was able to sense her presence in Judgment Day #1.



A Phoenix data page would at least have the potential to look cool. As far as the bolded, I think that writing is already on the wall; she has no importance.

Nah, she would probably be called the premier host. Or hopefully be called the actual Phoenix force. (I am setting myself up for such a letdown, the way I keep repeating this )
Or maybe they will f*** with us all and say that Feron is the only host that counts.

[Starchilde]

Nah, she would probably be called the premier host. Or hopefully be called the actual Phoenix force. (I am setting myself up for such a letdown, the way I keep repeating this )
Or maybe they will f*** with us all and say that Feron is the only host that counts.

I feel you. I try not to be that excited and to level my expectations with the solicit but I SIMPLY CAN'T. The let down is going to hit me hard lmao.

[Starchilde]

Just wanted to share here too, already posted in the storm thread but wanted to make sure i shared. Appreciated the kind words the other day on the singing picture of Jean/Storm.

Amazing work<3

[Phoenixx9]

If they made it clear that the Phoenix, and not just being a host, is Jean’s ultimate potential, then all ”she can’t do it without the Phoenix force”-comments are instantly made invalid since Jean then is the actual Phoenix force.

I think Jean is still haunted by the Dark Phoenix Saga. As Dark Phoenix she destroyed an entire world, and the decision was made that Jean had to die because of this. (Jim Shooter gave her the capital punishment.) When she was brought back they had to retcon the entire Phoenix story, stating that Jean was never Phoenix. That is, Jean was pure. A superhero couldn’t kill. Especially a female superhero.

To this day, 42 years after The Dark Phoenix Saga, the powers at be at Marvel, are afraid to let Jean be Phoenix, cause if she is the Phoenix she killed an entire world.

Yes, there have been many trials, many ”she did do it, even though she didn’t”, but I am still certain that Jean killing an entire world makes it so hard for Marvel to let her be Phoenix.

A male superhero would have gotten a redemption arc. Jean was bodyswapped.

However, Marvel later allowed writers to depict Jean owning that she was Phoenix and Dark Phoenix and becoming Phoenix again in Seagle's, Claremont's, and, most obviously, Morrison's respective runs. Even in Duggan's current run, he refers to Dark Phoenix as Jean, not a clone. Moreover, in Gillen's Judgment Day, the Eternals and Celestials will judge Jean as if she had been Dark Phoenix all along. In either case, I've grown tired of the discourses surrounding Jean and Phoenix, their relationship, and whether she will manifest it again. As I wrote to Ulysian_Thracs in the A.X.E. Judgment Day #1 thread:



Ultimately, regardless of what Marvel and their writers do next with Jean and Phoenix, the majority of fans and the general public will always consider the two one and the same. Moreover, I think I'm not attached to a particular direction for Jean because she brims with pathos and possibilities that are not tied to her being and becoming Phoenix again. This is one of the reasons I love and relate to her so much: She's like an iridescent stone that changes colors and textures depending on the angle from which one views her. She is a rather dichotomous and mercurial figure that way, much like myself. I find her endlessly fascinating and captivating whether she's ordinary or extraordinary, superpowered or not powered at all.

As I've said before, Marvel could center a series on her being depowered, banned from Krakoa, and shipped off to Idaho and I'd still be one of her biggest fans and giddy at the possibilities. I don't need her to be a GoDdEsS to love her.

I feel like I've said it a bazillion times but it is worth repeating - why do we take the bait from the haters and let them set the narrative? The haters are always saying the Phoenix invalidates Jean and her abilities but that standard is never applied to Rachel Summers or anyone else who has ever used the Phoenix. I personally refuse to accept the narrative that the Phoenix takes anything away from Jean. I feel when uses properly - like under Claremont and Morrison that the Phoenix is additive to Jean.

Jean has great non-Phoenix feats so why do we care what other fans think in versus chats/discussions?

I've never witnessed fans put down Rachel and her abilities due to her being Phoenix like some fans do Jean.

Having said all that, personally I do not want Jean to be cosmic level. I just want her history with the phoenix acknowledged/respected and I want her to be a central figure to the X-men while also being a powerful mutant. Currently Jean is a powerful mutant co-leading the X-men so I am very happy. She's also playing an important role in a big crossover, so I couldn't be happier about it. I do worry about what Gillen will establish about Jean's connection to the Phoenix but I am going to hope for the best, but also be measured in my expectations.

I also would love the return to the pink form but it has been so long... it was such a good development for her and should have stuck. They could have developed reasons for her not to be able to use it all the time, etc. Powerful characters do need some limits imo.

We all have good and valid points and we want the best for Jean!

I see the DP as a problem since that is all people seem to remember about Jean and the PF, which is why I prefer New portrayals of the Phoenix Jean story/ies WITHOUT the DP aspect.

This mess all started with the original creators who tangled the webs of Jean gaining superior powers, then changing from "the weakest to the strongest" idea, from being a solar-enhanced energy being changed into the Mightiest of Psychics as Jean reached her ultimate potential as a psi, to "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" themes.

Even in the DP Saga, Jean mentions that there are two beings, both separate and unique, Phoenix and Jean Grey--symbiosis--the Phoenix who provides her life force and Jean who provides a living focus. So much for Jean reaching her ultimate potential as a psi. Sadly, the mess they made then is even messier today.

I see Jean mighty powerful from the beginning and really increasing by the end of the original run. When the New X-Men debuted, Jean felt very confident in her powers and control, enough to leave the Professor and the school and go out into the world on her own. That was 1975. The Jean of 2022 is Uber-more-powerful, confident, skillful and in control of her thoughts, emotions and actions.

Anyone who thinks Jean is a "push-over" without the PF, is ill-informed and in for a rude awakening when they read instances stating otherwise.

[Mercury]

I do worry about what Gillen will establish about Jean's connection to the Phoenix but I am going to hope for the best, but also be measured in my expectations.

I also would love the return to the pink form but it has been so long... it was such a good development for her and should have stuck. They could have developed reasons for her not to be able to use it all the time, etc. Powerful characters do need some limits imo.

For the sake of discussion, what if her relationship with the Phoenix Force is completely severed and she doesn't manifest her “pink form” again? How will that ultimately impact your love for and enjoyment of her and her continuously unfolding story? Will you think to yourself, “Oh, no, she's been ruined!”? I'm curious.

Yes, I mentioned that in my original post.

I think most of Jean’s fans really like how she is portrayed at the moment. And most fans are optimistic about her future.

Personally, I love all aspects of this thread, it is a safe space for me. I dip my toe into the other threads here, but people tend to argue so much that I back out from them after a while. People can disagree here as well, but the love for Jean is so prevalent here that I always have a smile on my face when I read posts here.

This feels good to read. Even though I've had and expressed my moments of cynicism towards and impatience with this thread, I'm happy it's active and that it brings people like yourself joy. Also, you can definitely count me as one of those fans who is happy with how she is currently being depicted and optimistic about her future. More than anything else, I feel at peace with her as a character and sit content with the knowledge that she has a lot of positive and progressive developments, both in the comic books and other mediums, such as television, lined up.

Phoenix will always be brought up by fans here, since it is such an important part of Jean’s history. I was 10 years old when The Dark Phoenix Saga was published in Sweden. I cried when Jean died. And even though I was happy when she was brought back, I still felt that something had been stolen from her. And from me. A lot of older fans of Jean, such as myself, who were there when the retcon was published will always have problems with it. We have learned to live with it, but we would still probably want the retcon retconned.

This is true: No matter who else they give it to, discussions regarding the Phoenix will always begin and end with Jean. Hell, to this day, the creator of the Phoenix Force (Claremont) refuses to consider anyone but Jean Phoenix, which is a sentiment shared by many fans and even detractors. That being said, in the end, I'm glad the Dark Phoenix Saga was semi-retconned to bring Jean back. Since that iconic and groundbreaking tale, she's had so many rich and moving moments and stories that have only added to and deepened her mythos. Frankly, though the impact of her death at the end of the Saga is undeniable—I still tear up whenever I read it—it isn't plausible that she would have remained dead. Then again, even Claremont admitted this in his interview with The Comic Book Journal. I mean, she plunged into a star and remained there until it went supernova. If that didn't kill her, neither would have an ancient Kree machine. So, I've always considered the decision to bring her back just and right.

I think every fan of Jean have certain aspects that are more important for them to discuss than others. Some people want to discuss certain aspects over and over. Others want to look at the future. Some people are more interested in Jean’s love life, others are more interested in Jean’s fashion choices. And all of this is okay. Since we all want to discuss a character we love and adore. I quickly scroll through posts that discuss aspects of Jean I am not overly interested in, but if other people love to discuss them good for them. They do it because they love Jean.

Yes, Jean fans are certainly varied in terms of what they love most about her, which I think is a testament to her complexity. However, after everything she and her fans have been through, namely prolonged absences—and pardon me if this comes across as dismissive and insensitive—I find all of this hoping and worrying regarding her connection to the Phoenix both futile and detrimental to one’s enjoyment of her story and journey as it unfolds. It also detracts from discussions that could be had regarding other possibilities for her and directions in which she can be taken. Still, I am aware that I can't expect or force people to let go of their attachment to Phoenix and discuss other things. Besides, I've gone through my own phase of believing that Jean's relationship with the Phoenix was too important to change or let go of. But, as I've stated before, I no longer feel that way. Ultimately, she means more to me than her time as Phoenix.

I don't know what they will do, but Jean has tried to make amends for what occurred in the DPS several times. She (along with others) saved a world from a Celestial in X-factor, Jean faced the last D'Bari and experienced the DPS from both perspectives, she owned her role in the event (for calling out and merging with Phoenix), she was judged as Teen Jean in the Trial of Jean Grey, and more recently she saved planets including our own from GameWorld.

I agree the Celestial will judge her soon (or maybe attempt to judge her). We've seen Jean try to make amends and yet she still faces consequences for what happened in DPS. I think it may be a good development to see Jean free from that burden... but it all depends on how they do it and where it leads. Jean is ultimately a hero and she has saved a lot of folks and a lot of planets. I think as a character it is time for Jean to be free from the guilt? Or is this something the character should always wrestle with?

edit: I know you know Jean's history I was just summarizing all the times she's saved planets and been judged for DPS.

I loved the summary. It's good to remind everyone of how many times Jean has tried to make amends for the destruction of D'Bari, which also cost her her entire family.

I just think that they should solidify that Jean is something above a host: She is the Phoenix, not a host of Phoenix. And her detractors can cry if they want with that info. I think its not even something that needs to be retconned, its just to connect the evidence presented in many many years.

Ofc if they completely undo the retcon someday I will be even more happier, because I will never not think it was a huge injustice to strip a character of SO many issues and very important ones too, with everything that involves. I will never attributte DPS to an inexistent character, the weight of it is something that I found interesting and I think it enrichens Jean so much. As well as everything that she went through and experienced in those issues.

Anyway, just waiting to see how Gillen will tackle this issue. Anxious but excited nonetheless.

I'll ask you the same questions I asked MechaJeanix above: What if her relationship with the Phoenix Force is completely severed? How will that ultimately impact your love for and enjoyment of her and her continuously unfolding story?

I have this idea, that could be great or really wrong....wouldn't it be cool to have a Phoenix related data page? It could describe the phases of Phoenix -green, red, white, black/red, etc. Or maybe include a hierarchy of hosts or maybe distinguish between a host, an avatar, or other levels of being a phoenix. There is a lot of interesting things that could be done with a Phoenix data page.

I realize many of you are reading this and shaking your heads right now lol I agree it could be dangerous if not done well (and if Jean's importance didn't place the way some of us would want).

This would depend on who the writer is, but it would definitely be interesting and handy tool to have!

[Mercury]

This mess all started with the original creators who tangled the webs of Jean gaining superior powers, then changing from "the weakest to the strongest" idea, from being a solar-enhanced energy being changed into the Mightiest of Psychics as Jean reached her ultimate potential as a psi, to "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" themes.

Even in the DP Saga, Jean mentions that there are two beings, both separate and unique, Phoenix and Jean Grey--symbiosis--the Phoenix who provides her life force and Jean who provides a living focus. So much for Jean reaching her ultimate potential as a psi. Sadly, the mess they made then is even messier today.

It's certainly an imperfect, though devastatingly impactful story.

I see Jean mighty powerful from the beginning and really increasing by the end of the original run. When the New X-Men [second genesis] debuted, Jean felt very confident in her powers and control, enough to leave the Professor and the school and go out into the world on her own. That was 1975. The Jean of 2022 is Uber-more-powerful, confident, skillful and in control of her thoughts, emotions and actions.

Anyone who thinks Jean is a "push-over" without the PF, is ill-informed and in for a rude awakening when they read instances stating otherwise.

All of this!

[WallStreeter]

I wonder if they will work on building some kind of relationship (non-romantic) between Cyclops and Echo based on their shared connection to the Phoenix. He was able to sense her presence in Judgment Day #1.



A Phoenix data page would at least have the potential to look cool. As far as the bolded, I think that writing is already on the wall; she has no importance.

No, and I will tell you why. Next year the Echo series comes out and it will feature Echo and Daredevil.

So nothing between Cyclops and Echo is in the cards.

[MechaJeanix]

For the sake of discussion, what if her relationship with the Phoenix Force is completely severed and she doesn't manifest her “pink form” again? How will that ultimately impact your love for and enjoyment of her and her continuously unfolding story? Will you think to yourself, “Oh, no, she's been ruined!”? I'm curious.

I would be fine because I feel like her connection is currently nonexistent so it wouldn't change anything. Plus we've been there before during the X-factor years and early 90s. Rosenberg acted like he did something new with Jean's status quo after Phoenix Resurrection, but it felt like a return to the late 80s/early 90s.

I also would be fine if she doesn't do the pink form, but it is annoying that it isn't used. I wish it would return, and I would prefer some sort of lasting connection to the Phoenix in some way (even in a small way), but they aren't necessary for me to enjoy Jean Grey and the X-men. It would just be icing on the cake to get one or more of those things, but I really love how Jean is portrayed right now - a strong empathic leader who is trying in her own way to make the world (and universe) a better (and safer) place. I think there is a lot yet to mine with Jean and not only her powers but her relationship to the other X-men and I want them to explore more of Cyke's and Jean's dream for Krakoa (whether it is the role of the X-men or changes in Krakoan government - as Jean thinks the QC should be elected).

Judgement Day is exciting because there is a lot we don't know yet about Jean's role (and how or if she will be judged). It is an interesting time for sure. On a superficial level I am loving Jean's current costume. She has the look deserving of a major (and founding) X-man!

[MechaJeanix]

We all have good and valid points and we want the best for Jean!

I see the DP as a problem since that is all people seem to remember about Jean and the PF, which is why I prefer New portrayals of the Phoenix Jean story/ies WITHOUT the DP aspect.

This mess all started with the original creators who tangled the webs of Jean gaining superior powers, then changing from "the weakest to the strongest" idea, from being a solar-enhanced energy being changed into the Mightiest of Psychics as Jean reached her ultimate potential as a psi, to "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" themes.

Even in the DP Saga, Jean mentions that there are two beings, both separate and unique, Phoenix and Jean Grey--symbiosis--the Phoenix who provides her life force and Jean who provides a living focus. So much for Jean reaching her ultimate potential as a psi. Sadly, the mess they made then is even messier today.

I see Jean mighty powerful from the beginning and really increasing by the end of the original run. When the New X-Men debuted, Jean felt very confident in her powers and control, enough to leave the Professor and the school and go out into the world on her own. That was 1975. The Jean of 2022 is Uber-more-powerful, confident, skillful and in control of her thoughts, emotions and actions.

Anyone who thinks Jean is a "push-over" without the PF, is ill-informed and in for a rude awakening when they read instances stating otherwise.

I bought the Phoenix omnibus the other day and I still love the original Phoenix and Dark Phoenix sagas (though my fav Phoenix story is probably Morrison's New X-men run), but you are right that Claremont used competing explanations of what the Phoenix was and what exactly happened to Jean. It was this wishy washiness that contributed to others creating the retcon. Such is comics. But even with the retcon the story in the Dark Phoenix Saga was a story about Jean Grey. When you read the story she is still the heart of it and as long as it is acknowledged that Jean was part of the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix (per conclusion of Inferno and other stories) I am good.

You are right that Jean is an awesome character even when taking out the Phoenix stories. I loved her in X-factor, the 90s, the Teen Jean era, and the current era. Jean does have some big themes and they include her love life, her expanding powers, and the Phoenix - we'll be arguing about each forever (or until they stop telling stories about them).

The Phoenix stuff seemed over until they announced this story by Gillen that is supposed to finally explain the relationship. This is something I expected and wanted from the Teen Jean solo run (it got close but didn't fully explain it).

[Starchilde]

I'll ask you the same questions I asked MechaJeanix above: What if her relationship with the Phoenix Force is completely severed? How will that ultimately impact your love for and enjoyment of her and her continuously unfolding story?

My love for Jean will remain the same, she is my favourite character in a way no other character is. If her connection to Phoenix is completely severed, I will remain in exactly the same stance that I am now, thinking is just a way to strip her of her elements for no reason, and I will keep ranting about it lol. I have that stance now because the current status quo is exactly that scenario: she is currently severed from anything Phoenix, per Phoenix Resurrection. Rosenberg himself said that his intention was a divorce between Jean and Phoenix.

[Devaishwarya]

I've loved Jean as/with the Phoenix (past tense) but I love Jean eternally without it (present and future tense).

[Mercury]

I'll reply to posts later, but I wanted to pop in here and share these pages from X-Men: The End #6 (2006) that I posted in the Jean and Logan thread I created in response to MechaJeanix's question. I'd like everyone's thoughts on this. Ever since reading this story, I always thought to myself, I wouldn't mind if they did and made this canon. Claremont's takes on Jean never cease to amaze and enthrall me. Here, he reveals that Jean, Madelyne Pryor, and the Phoenix Force were always one and the same. Madelyne—the missing fragment of Jean’s soul that loved and sacrificed her life for Scott on the shuttle—returns to Jean, who saves all creation by reuniting Xavier and Cassandra and completing the Tree of Life, though at a cost. As uncannyxmen.net notes:

The Tree of life is a mystical concept within the Kabbalah of Judaism, which is used to understand the nature of God and the manner in which He created the world ex nihilo. The Kabbalists developed this concept into a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a "map" of Creation. The tree of life has been called the "cosmology" of the Kabbalah.

The earliest texts which describe the tree of life are the Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, Sefer Raziel Hamelech, and — probably the most influential — the Zohar. The latter describes the tree of life as being a sort of diagram (although not necessarily a physical one) that has 10 (sometimes 11) Sephirot and 22 (sometimes 24) paths which interconnect the various Sephirot. Each Sephirah and path is said to have a different characteristic — for example, a different number, letter, physical feature, planet, etc. There is much disagreement over the attributes which each Sephirah and path possess. Even the earliest texts have major disagreements with each other and with themselves, depending on the edition.

Positions in the tree of life and the Sephirah they correspond to:

Top: Xavier/Cassandra = Keter. (The Supreme Crown): The meaning "crown" corresponds, in particular, to "the head of nothingness," the source of Divine pleasure in the soul. The "crown" symbolizes the spiritual power to receive and integrate into one's consciousness the pleasure of Divine revelation, as our sages express with regard to the world to come: "the righteous sit with their crowns on their heads and receive pleasure from the radiance of the Divine Presence

Middle: Jean/Madelyne = Tipheret (Glory, Beauty): Tipheret represents the ideal balance of Justice and Mercy needed for proper running of the universe.

Below that: Scott =Yesod (Foundation): Yesod is the channel through which Tiferet strives to unite with the Shekhinah and pass on the creative and benevolent divine forces.

Bottom: Magneto = Shekhinah (God’s presence, Kingdom): The Shekhinah is a Talmudic concept representing God's dwelling and immanence in the created world. It was equated with the "Keneset Yisrael," the personified spirit of the People of Israel.

Top of the left branch: Kitty = Binah (Understanding, discernment): Binah refers to the analytic, distinguishing aspects of God's thought.

Below: Cable = Din (Judgment, Might, Power): This Sefirah represents the fearsome powers of divine punishment and wrath in the world. This power is needed to maintain control over the universe. However the destructive forces necessary to keep order and exact punishment also contain the seeds of demonic Evil: the "Other Side" (Sitra Ahra).

Below: Rachel = Hod (Majesty): Hod represents the lower channel through which God's judgment comes down to the world. It is also associated with the power of prophecy.

Top of the right branch: Nightcrawler = Hokhmah (Wisdom): Hokhmah represents the contemplative, synthetic aspects of God's thought. It is the primordial point of creation from which all knowable reality originates.

Below: Wolverine = Hesed (Love, Long Kindness, compassion): Hesed represents the generous, benevolent (masculine) side of God.

Below: Storm = Nezah (Eternity, endurance, victory): This Sefirah represents God's active grace in the world.

While Kitty addresses the journalist she is talking to as Manoli, it is clear that the artist meant her to be somebody else, as she is much too young.

Robert Kennedy’s quote: “We have met the enemy.”

Among those X-Men that have survived at the end: Iceman, Karma, unidentified Asian woman (possibly Karma’s sister Nga), Alice Whedon , Marie D’Acanto, Aliyah Bishop, Lucas Bishop, X-23, Wolverine, Psylocke, unidentified blackhaired woman (possibly Karima Shapandar or Monet), Beast, Cecilia Reyes, Cannonball, Mystique, Emma Frost, Nightcrawler, Nocturne.

X-Men shown to have died: Sage, Archangel, Storm, Madelyne Pryor, Dazzler, Lilandra, Dust, Hub, Cyclops, Magneto, Charles Xavier, Polaris, Colossus, Cable, Cassandra Nova, Phoenix, Marvel Girl, Captain Britain, Juggernuat, Northstar, Wolfsbane, Rogue, Gambit, Domino, Feral, Shatterstar, James Proudstar.

It is somewhat unclear as to why some X-Men survived and some didn’t: for example Nightcrawler was part of the Tree of Life and apparently survived. Storm on the other hand didn’t.

[WallStreeter]

I’m a fan of Jean, no matter what. Without or without the Phoenix or the pink form. She still kicks butt without them. She has clearly done great feats without either the pink form or Phoenix. She’s going to kick but this summer, but Indint know what power manifestation she will have. We will have to see.

[WallStreeter]

My love for Jean will remain the same, she is my favourite character in a way no other character is. If her connection to Phoenix is completely severed, I will remain in exactly the same stance that I am now, thinking is just a way to strip her of her elements for no reason, and I will keep ranting about it lol. I have that stance now because the current status quo is exactly that scenario: she is currently severed from anything Phoenix, per Phoenix Resurrection. Rosenberg himself said that his intention was a divorce between Jean and Phoenix.

I hear you on that. While I don’t give a crap am the force per say she has come back from the dead so often her codename should be Phoenix. Frankly she should rip the force out of Echo. I don’t think we have to worry.