Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Devaishwarya]

But they have been addressed...several times. And apparently Gillen will talk about Jean and the Phoenix...zzzzzzzzzzz...again...snore!

[Mercury]

But they have been addressed...several times. And apparently Gillen will talk about Jean and the Phoenix...zzzzzzzzzzz...again...snore!

They haven't been addressed sufficiently or satisfactorily. And as for Gillen choosing to write a Jean-centric 40-page one-shot, well, that's a dream come true for me. One that has had me writhing in ecstasy in fits and starts since it was first announced.

I trust you won't be reading it, though, which I understand...

[Devaishwarya]

They haven't been addressed sufficiently or satisfactorily. And as for Gillen choosing to write a Jean-centric 40-page one-shot, well, that's a dream come true for me. One that has had me writhing in ecstasy in fits and starts since it was first announced.

I trust you won't be reading it, though, which I understand...

Oh Gawd No! I LOVE Jean but I don't care about that mess at all. But go right ahead and knock yourself out.

[Mercury]

Oh Gawd No! I LOVE Jean but I don't care about that mess at all.

Don't worry; I'll provide a summary, which I'm sure you'll read.

[Devaishwarya]

Of course I'll read it. I won't miss it for nothing. It's sure to be more interesting than whatever Gillen will write.

[Mercury]

Of course I'll read it. I won't miss it for nothing. It's sure to be more interesting than whatever Gillen will write.

[Starchilde]

I've only read #25, which I like a lot more than I thought I would. Actually, I thought it was brilliant. Good point, though.



Well, similar dynamics and exchanges between Jean and Wanda could be well-written and interesting, too, not to mention iconic because of each's overall stature in comics. I definitely wouldn't be against it, especially because, as you pointed out, neither has had their traumas addressed in a consistently well-written fashion.

Exactlyyyyy

Literally my Dream! No one would understand the other better, I think

[johnnysv75]

In other news—now I'm reluctant to post this since I've awoken Kitty, lol—I'm in the middle of the new CerebroCast episode centered on Abigail Brand with Al Ewing as the guest, and Connor Goldsmith had the following to say to Al, which he found profound and, according to him, inspired him. For those that don't know, Al is using the Phoenix Force in his upcoming Defenders series. If I remember correctly, Galactus' mom is the host this time.

If you want to check out the exchange for yourselves, it starts around the 1 hour and 3-minute mark and lasts for about 3-4 minutes. Link: https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec...e-2c1b65c4c0e8

That is similar to what BobbysWorld wrote back in December. And it would be the perfect way to solve Jean as Phoenix. Pasting BobbysWorld’s post below:

I'm just copying and pasting my post from the Most Controversial X-Franchise opinion because of Johnnysv5's idea for the Phoenix and Jean.....because ironically, its actually pretty similar to one of the original ideas for Jean and omega mutants in general when they first did X-Men Forever in the 90s. Putting it here since not everybody goes into that thread obviously and its relevant to this particular discussion, I feel:

My controversial opinion on the X-Universe was I preferred the take where the Phoenix was always Jean and Jean was always the Phoenix. It was the basis behind the original X-Men Forever miniseries establishing omegas, and why Bobby was chosen as the other original omega aside from her. Basically the idea as I understood it was that the Phoenix was always the ultimate evolution of Jean herself, what she could grow to become in thousands of years, kept alive via her own mutant power and telekinetic control over her molecular structure and her psyche, until a point where she transcended the need for a physical body and just existed as the Phoenix. But as for the Phoenix existing in the past.....that's because Jean's ultimate omega potential was to exist as an entity of pure telekinetic and telepathic godhood anywhere in TIME and space. Because see, Nathan and Rachel inherited her powers.....and the idea was that Rachel's chronoskimming power, to psychically see through time, was supposed to be rooted in a latent aspect of Jean's own powers, something that would unlock with her full potential.

And thus that's how Jean would become the Phoenix but still exist millions of years in the past, and be the basis of the Shi'ar legends and all that, etc. And its ALSO why she and her descendants are the prime 'hosts' for the Phoenix.....because when the Phoenix 'possessed' her, it was really just Jean's fully evolved and transcended self REUNITING with its own initial human existence....and in the process being reminded of human wants, needs and concerns, what it was like to be human, something the Phoenix had forgotten due to its endless eons of existence. And similarly, when it bonded with Rachel, it was the connection to her daughter that Jean/The Phoenix was resonating with. That's why even though the Phoenix has always been hosted by telepaths, seeking a symbiosis with mortal minds that reminded it of its origins, Jean and Rachel were its 'true' hosts, because they were of it in a way no one else was.

And then that's also why Bobby was chosen to be the other omega mutant, because although Claremont created The First Fallen to be the Phoenix's opposite, the idea at the time that making Jean and the Phoenix one and the same was what was floating around the X-office, it was Bobby who was intended to be its opposite in that way......because Bobby's full omega potential isn't making ice or controlling water, its essentially.....stopping energy, taking it away. Ending things.

See, when X-Men Forever first floated the idea of omega mutants, it was in a story with Celestials, and the whole idea was that omegas were the ultimate culmination of the Celestials' experiments on Earth. They were the point, the end goal. Beings who would someday evolve to take the place of the current Abstracts like Oblivion and Death and become the mechanism that would end this universe and start the next one. Jean as the Phoenix and Bobby were the fundamental starting point/lynch pin of that concept, as at their ultimate evolution, millions of years in the future long after they'd transcended existing as mortal bodies and were just pure power and consciousness.....Bobby would be the inevitable heat-death of the universe, the one who finally just said to all things "Stop" and ground the mechanism of the current universe to a stop, all that is ending with the absolute death of heat, which is of course just the result of molecules in motion and without it, molecules have no motion and nothing anywhere moves or does anything.....and then his counterpart, Jean, the Phoenix, was the spark that would take the graveyard of this universe and use it as kindling to ignite the next Big Bang, birthing the next universe. With whatever other omegas existed/transcended by then being the only other things besides them that would survive, and then they'd be what created the mechanisms of the new universe and becoming the Abstract/Framework entities of the next universe.

[Uncanny X-Man]

That is similar to what BobbysWorld wrote back in December. And it would be the perfect way to solve Jean as Phoenix. Pasting BobbysWorld’s post below:

I said it before and I'll say it again, I absolutely love BobbysWorld's theory, I think it's simple and elegant and reestablishes the primal connection between Jean and the Phoenix while also allowing for everything else that happened since the concept was first introduced. I also believe Gillen is headed in a similar direction in his upcoming AXE Jean/Phoenix-focused one-shot from the sound of it.

[johnnysv75]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I absolutely love BobbysWorld's theory, I think it's simple and elegant and reestablishes the primal connection between Jean and the Phoenix while also allowing for everything else that happened since the concept was first introduced. I also believe Gillen is headed in a similar direction in his upcoming AXE Jean/Phoenix-focused one-shot from the sound of it.

I am not sure it I am brave enough to read it. I will be so disappointed if it is just a ”Jean gets to shine for a bit”-oneshot that doesn’t really affect Jean in the long run.

Things are looking so promising now, it almost seems a bit too good to be true.

[BobbysWorld]

All I've gotta say differently from back then is that people were surprised by Bobby essentially freezing time/space in the last issue of the Iceman Infinity mini, but its literally just what I've been saying his ultimate potential is all along.

Bobby would be the inevitable heat-death of the universe, the one who finally just said to all things "Stop" and ground the mechanism of the current universe to a stop, all that is ending with the absolute death of heat, which is of course just the result of molecules in motion and without it, molecules have no motion and nothing anywhere moves or does anything.....

I mean....that's literally what he did in that issue, its always been built into his powerset, they just....actually pulled the trigger on it. Course, as much as I liked that it gave other friends of his like JP, as well as Christian and Romeo, a chance to reach him and get him to stop, Jean would have also been an effective way to reach him and stop him from freezing any more of reality. Like I've said for years. Bobby says Stop, and Jean says Now Go. Extinction and resurrection. Two sides of the same coin. (My fave part of that duality is that both of them could just as easily be both sides, they can flip. Bobby's not just ice, he's also water, the basic building block of life. Jean's not just the spark of rebirth, she's also the all-consuming blaze. I love symmetry. Can you tell?)

But tbh, I would like them to take this route with Jean, once and for all, but I'm not like, actually having any expectations for what their plans are with this event or tie-in issue. I've been wrong too many times before. This is just my preferred headcanon and I like that recent events made it easier to headcanon but like, if they just **** with the Phoenix more instead of doing this, not gonna lie, I'll probably just ignore it and continue to double down on this head. Yay for willful obtuseness.

[WallStreeter]

I've only read #25, which I like a lot more than I thought I would. Actually, I thought it was brilliant. Good point, though.



Well, similar dynamics and exchanges between Jean and Wanda could be well-written and interesting, too, not to mention iconic because of each's overall stature in comics. I definitely wouldn't be against it, especially because, as you pointed out, neither has had their traumas addressed in a consistently well-written fashion.

In the Krakoa era both have had their trauma’s addressed.

[WallStreeter]

I've only read #25, which I like a lot more than I thought I would. Actually, I thought it was brilliant. Good point, though.



Well, similar dynamics and exchanges between Jean and Wanda could be well-written and interesting, too, not to mention iconic because of each's overall stature in comics. I definitely wouldn't be against it, especially because, as you pointed out, neither has had their traumas addressed in a consistently well-written fashion.

Magik and the Goblin Queen had their traumas addressed. Even Amahl Farouk.

Maybe Krakoa should have a designated psychologist. Maybe Jean clubs have that role. Even as a teenager she removed the trigger scent from Laura’s mind.

[MechaJeanix]

I would love it if they tied Jean and Phoenix so intimately as Bobby's World and others have mentioned. Why couldn't a young mutant telepath with unlimited power or no upper limits help create or be entangled with this psychic/ cosmic force that is beyond space and time as we know it. There are definitely possibilities but I'm afraid this may be out of reach.

I'd settle for Jean's telepathy being so great that she automatically plugs into the Phoenix consciousness and further it is her birthright to do so as a descendant of the cavewoman Phoenix. I would put her phoenix connection in her mutant genes / her powers so that it cannot be so easily erased.

Another idea I have since the Phoenix Corps is a thing since Morrison's run why can't Echo still exist with the Phoenix force but Jean regain the codename. Jean sans Phoenix force can be the "Phoenix" representing Krakoa/mutantdom. In DC comics we have multiple Green Lanterns and its not an issue. Heck aren't there multiple Robins at any particular time.

Echo has an identity and codename that isn't attached to the phoenix force. Jean has had the Phoenix codename even when she wasn't Phoenix. I recall a time on the message boards when folks would discuss Phoenix and it was a given we were discussing Jean. This was late 90's/early 2000s. In the Morrison era Jean had the Phoenix codename for the recap pages but still mostly went by Jean Grey. Again that era was a perfect blend of 90's Jean and Phoenix-Jean. I don't know if it is possible to return to that, but I can daydream.

No matter what happens I can't wait to read Gillen's Jean centered issue that delves more into how she is feeling and to showcase the character as a person. It has been a while since we have had one (I'm thinking back to the X-men Red Annual by Tom Taylor). It is going to be a long wait and we'll continue to speculate on what is in store but the exciting part is that we never guess completely accurate. Gillen may through all of us for a loop when we see where they settle.

What gives me hope is that JDW the editor has said in the past that he likes Jean with the Phoenix codename, but I think he likes Jean either way. I don't think he saw Jean's Phoenix connection as some toxic relationship like Rosenberg did (but this is just a guess from posts made on twitter years ago when he was on twitter) so hopefully they can fix a few things that need correcting.

[CapCyke]

Imo, Jean will never be the Phoenix in the long run again.

I don't think Marvel wants to see her as Phoenix, simply because she would become way too powerful. And scriptwise, the interest of having a character in team books capable of facing the Celestial, Galactus or Thanos in 1 vs 1 is not great.

If Jean becomes Phoenix again, I have a feeling it will be during a major summer event for a short time or in a solo book where she travels the cosmos and saves planets. But I think she's way too important a part of the X-Men for that to happen.

I even have a bad feeling that she could even become Dark phoenix again, because in terms of drama, it would be more interesting to see her become an antagonist. Sadly, the visions of Destiny in Immortal Xmen 3 go in this direction.