Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Daedra]

I really would like to have an interview where Marvel authors debate why it is important that EVERYBODY is a Phoenix host but not Jean Grey. Why? I really wonder what their reasoning are. There must be a reason.

I think Hope will be Phoenix in the future. Exodus worshipping her and be her first apostle.

I don’t believe in stuff that will happen in the future, it’s all clutter, only the present counts.

[johnnysv75]

I really would like to have an interview where Marvel authors debate why it is important that EVERYBODY is a Phoenix host but not Jean Grey. Why? I really wonder what their reasoning are. There must be a reason.

I think Hope will be Phoenix in the future. Exodus worshipping her and be her first apostle.

If they give Jean back the ”pink power mode” I am fine with Hope being Phoenix. But it will feel a bit weird, and from a marketing point of view it is such a strange move not to have the most known Phoenix be … well … be Phoenix.

[Exodus]

If they give Jean back the ”pink power mode” I am fine with Hope being Phoenix. But it will feel a bit weird, and from a marketing point of view it is such a strange move not to have the most known Phoenix be … well … be Phoenix.

Exactly. Hence, I would really know why? They must talk about it. Why is it important for them to disassociate Jean Grey from Phoenix?

is it just a marketing thing, so they can use several Phoenix-powered Heros on variant covers (similar to the symbionts)?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Exactly. Hence, I would really know why? They must talk about it. Why is it important for them to disassociate Jean Grey from Phoenix?

is it just a marketing thing, so they can use several Phoenix-powered Heros on variant covers (similar to the symbionts)?

I would like an answer for this too, assuming the reason they'd give isn't the reason that seems pretty obvious to me.

[Psych1c]

I'd say they don't want to give Phoenix back to Jean because it would make her uber powerful, but then again we've had powerful characters running around and they didn't get nerfed to be more "street-leveled". Jean is rightfully strong on her own and not having Phoenix attached to her allows some development and avoid the "she can't do this without the PF, those are not her featzzzz" statement that you see whenever a versus topic pops up over the internet.

The on-off merged-then-separated status is messy. Just let her use the friggin' pink mode that she already has. Why haven't we seen it so far anyway? I hope she uses it in the current saga, she HAS to.

If she was still part of the Council during the uni-mind attack, that sure would've been the time to showcase her omega level telepathy. Can you imagine the damage output she would've received had she used Pink mode during that assault? I think it only boosts her telekinesis, however, they should explore the boost being applied to all of her mutant abilities.

[Mercury]

Mark Brooks just tweeted this:

[johnnysv75]

I'd say they don't want to give Phoenix back to Jean because it would make her uber powerful, but then again we've had powerful characters running around and they didn't get nerfed to be more "street-leveled". Jean is rightfully strong on her own and not having Phoenix attached to her allows some development and avoid the "she can't do this without the PF, those are not her featzzzz" statement that you see whenever a versus topic pops up over the internet.

The on-off merged-then-separated status is messy. Just let her use the friggin' pink mode that she already has. Why haven't we seen it so far anyway? I hope she uses it in the current saga, she HAS to.

If she was still part of the Council during the uni-mind attack, that sure would've been the time to showcase her omega level telepathy. Can you imagine the damage output she would've received had she used Pink mode during that assault? I think it only boosts her telekinesis, however, they should explore the boost being applied to all of her mutant abilities.

If they made it clear that the Phoenix, and not just being a host, is Jean’s ultimate potential, then all ”she can’t do it without the Phoenix force”-comments are instantly made invalid since Jean then is the actual Phoenix force.

I think Jean is still haunted by the Dark Phoenix Saga. As Dark Phoenix she destroyed an entire world, and the decision was made that Jean had to die because of this. (Jim Shooter gave her the capital punishment.) When she was brought back they had to retcon the entire Phoenix story, stating that Jean was never Phoenix. That is, Jean was pure. A superhero couldn’t kill. Especially a female superhero.

To this day, 42 years after The Dark Phoenix Saga, the powers at be at Marvel, are afraid to let Jean be Phoenix, cause if she is the Phoenix she killed an entire world.

Yes, there have been many trials, many ”she did do it, even though she didn’t”, but I am still certain that Jean killing an entire world makes it so hard for Marvel to let her be Phoenix.

A male superhero would have gotten a redemption arc. Jean was bodyswapped.

[Mercury]

If they made it clear that the Phoenix, and not just being a host, is Jean’s ultimate potential, then all ”she can’t do it without the Phoenix force”-comments are instantly made invalid since Jean then is the actual Phoenix force.

I think Jean is still haunted by the Dark Phoenix Saga. As Dark Phoenix she destroyed an entire world, and the decision was made that Jean had to die because of this. (Jim Shooter gave her the capital punishment.) When she was brought back they had to retcon the entire Phoenix story, stating that Jean was never Phoenix. That is, Jean was pure. A superhero couldn’t kill. Especially a female superhero.

To this day, 42 years after The Dark Phoenix Saga, the powers at be at Marvel, are afraid to let Jean be Phoenix, cause if she is the Phoenix she killed an entire world.

Yes, there have been many trials, many ”she did do it, even though she didn’t”, but I am still certain that Jean killing an entire world makes it so hard for Marvel to let her be Phoenix.

A male superhero would have gotten a redemption arc. Jean was bodyswapped.

However, Marvel later allowed writers to depict Jean owning that she was Phoenix and Dark Phoenix and becoming Phoenix again in Seagle's, Claremont's, and, most obviously, Morrison's respective runs. Even in Duggan's current run, he refers to Dark Phoenix as Jean, not a clone. Moreover, in Gillen's Judgment Day, the Eternals and Celestials will judge Jean as if she had been Dark Phoenix all along. In either case, I've grown tired of the discourses surrounding Jean and Phoenix, their relationship, and whether she will manifest it again. As I wrote to Ulysian_Thracs in the A.X.E. Judgment Day #1 thread:

Frankly, I think the root cause of some fans' disappointment regarding how she has been and is being handled and written is their fixed attachment to Phoenix. On the one hand, you can't blame fans for being so attached to such an iconic character and story. But, on the other hand, at a certain point, as a fan, you have to decide to let go and either move on or go with the flow. I could come up with several things I would do differently with Jean, but I don't let my creative preferences prevent me from enjoying her current stories and development or from anticipating and being excited for what's yet to come for her. Ultimately, I'm content knowing that she's back and in a central role in the franchise, and that, as creative as I can be, I genuinely have no idea what lies ahead or which creative genius will be the one to shepherd her there. There's a thrill in that, for me at least.

And I couldn't be happier seeing Jean doing "the same X-Men shit she's always done," especially after considering all she missed out on during her absences. All I can suggest is the following: 1) Keep an open mind and remain as optimistic as possible; 2) always remember that these characters, including Jean, will never cease to change and be thrust into new and unforeseen circumstances; and 3) try not to rain on someone else's parade.

Ultimately, regardless of what Marvel and their writers do next with Jean and Phoenix, the majority of fans and the general public will always consider the two one and the same. Moreover, I think I'm not attached to a particular direction for Jean because she brims with pathos and possibilities that are not tied to her being and becoming Phoenix again. This is one of the reasons I love and relate to her so much: She's like an iridescent stone that changes colors and textures depending on the angle from which one views her. She is a rather dichotomous and mercurial figure that way, much like myself. I find her endlessly fascinating and captivating whether she's ordinary or extraordinary, superpowered or not powered at all.

As I've said before, Marvel could center a series on her being depowered, banned from Krakoa, and shipped off to Idaho and I'd still be one of her biggest fans and giddy at the possibilities. I don't need her to be a GoDdEsS to love her.

[MechaJeanix]

I'd say they don't want to give Phoenix back to Jean because it would make her uber powerful, but then again we've had powerful characters running around and they didn't get nerfed to be more "street-leveled". Jean is rightfully strong on her own and not having Phoenix attached to her allows some development and avoid the "she can't do this without the PF, those are not her featzzzz" statement that you see whenever a versus topic pops up over the internet.

The on-off merged-then-separated status is messy. Just let her use the friggin' pink mode that she already has. Why haven't we seen it so far anyway? I hope she uses it in the current saga, she HAS to.

If she was still part of the Council during the uni-mind attack, that sure would've been the time to showcase her omega level telepathy. Can you imagine the damage output she would've received had she used Pink mode during that assault? I think it only boosts her telekinesis, however, they should explore the boost being applied to all of her mutant abilities.

I feel like I've said it a bazillion times but it is worth repeating - why do we take the bait from the haters and let them set the narrative? The haters are always saying the Phoenix invalidates Jean and her abilities but that standard is never applied to Rachel Summers or anyone else who has ever used the Phoenix. I personally refuse to accept the narrative that the Phoenix takes anything away from Jean. I feel when uses properly - like under Claremont and Morrison that the Phoenix is additive to Jean.

Jean has great non-Phoenix feats so why do we care what other fans think in versus chats/discussions?

I've never witnessed fans put down Rachel and her abilities due to her being Phoenix like some fans do Jean.

Having said all that, personally I do not want Jean to be cosmic level. I just want her history with the phoenix acknowledged/respected and I want her to be a central figure to the X-men while also being a powerful mutant. Currently Jean is a powerful mutant co-leading the X-men so I am very happy. She's also playing an important role in a big crossover, so I couldn't be happier about it. I do worry about what Gillen will establish about Jean's connection to the Phoenix but I am going to hope for the best, but also be measured in my expectations.

I also would love the return to the pink form but it has been so long... it was such a good development for her and should have stuck. They could have developed reasons for her not to be able to use it all the time, etc. Powerful characters do need some limits imo.

[johnnysv75]

However, Marvel later allowed writers to depict Jean owning that she was Phoenix and Dark Phoenix and becoming Phoenix again in Seagle's, Claremont's, and, most obviously, Morrison's respective runs. Even in Duggan's current run, he refers to Dark Phoenix as Jean, not a clone. Moreover, in Gillen's Judgment Day, the Eternals and Celestials will judge Jean as if she had been Dark Phoenix all along. In either case, I've grown tired of the discourses surrounding Jean and Phoenix, their relationship, and whether she will manifest it again. As I wrote to Ulysian_Thracs in the A.X.E. Judgment Day #1 thread:

Yes, I mentioned that in my original post.

I think most of Jean’s fans really like how she is portrayed at the moment. And most fans are optimistic about her future.

Personally, I love all aspects of this thread, it is a safe space for me. I dip my toe into the other threads here, but people tend to argue so much that I back out from them after a while. People can disagree here as well, but the love for Jean is so prevalent here that I always have a smile on my face when I read posts here.

Phoenix will always be brought up by fans here, since it is such an important part of Jean’s history. I was 10 years old when The Dark Phoenix Saga was published in Sweden. I cried when Jean died. And even though I was happy when she was brought back, I still felt that something had been stolen from her. And from me. A lot of older fans of Jean, such as myself, who were there when the retcon was published will always have problems with it. We have learned to live with it, but we would still probably want the retcon retconned.

I think every fan of Jean have certain aspects that are more important for them to discuss than others. Some people want to discuss certain aspects over and over. Others want to look at the future. Some people are more interested in Jean’s love life, others are more interested in Jean’s fashion choices. And all of this is okay. Since we all want to discuss a character we love and adore. I quickly scroll through posts that discuss aspects of Jean I am not overly interested in, but if other people love to discuss them good for them. They do it because they love Jean.

[MechaJeanix]

If they made it clear that the Phoenix, and not just being a host, is Jean’s ultimate potential, then all ”she can’t do it without the Phoenix force”-comments are instantly made invalid since Jean then is the actual Phoenix force.

I think Jean is still haunted by the Dark Phoenix Saga. As Dark Phoenix she destroyed an entire world, and the decision was made that Jean had to die because of this. (Jim Shooter gave her the capital punishment.) When she was brought back they had to retcon the entire Phoenix story, stating that Jean was never Phoenix. That is, Jean was pure. A superhero couldn’t kill. Especially a female superhero.

To this day, 42 years after The Dark Phoenix Saga, the powers at be at Marvel, are afraid to let Jean be Phoenix, cause if she is the Phoenix she killed an entire world.

Yes, there have been many trials, many ”she did do it, even though she didn’t”, but I am still certain that Jean killing an entire world makes it so hard for Marvel to let her be Phoenix.

A male superhero would have gotten a redemption arc. Jean was bodyswapped.

I don't know what they will do, but Jean has tried to make amends for what occurred in the DPS several times. She (along with others) saved a world from a Celestial in X-factor, Jean faced the last D'Bari and experienced the DPS from both perspectives, she owned her role in the event (for calling out and merging with Phoenix), she was judged as Teen Jean in the Trial of Jean Grey, and more recently she saved planets including our own from GameWorld.

I agree the Celestial will judge her soon (or maybe attempt to judge her). We've seen Jean try to make amends and yet she still faces consequences for what happened in DPS. I think it may be a good development to see Jean free from that burden... but it all depends on how they do it and where it leads. Jean is ultimately a hero and she has saved a lot of folks and a lot of planets. I think as a character it is time for Jean to be free from the guilt? Or is this something the character should always wrestle with?

edit: I know you know Jean's history I was just summarizing all the times she's saved planets and been judged for DPS.

[Starchilde]

I just think that they should solidify that Jean is something above a host: She is the Phoenix, not a host of Phoenix. And her detractors can cry if they want with that info. I think its not even something that needs to be retconned, its just to connect the evidence presented in many many years.

Ofc if they completely undo the retcon someday I will be even more happier, because I will never not think it was a huge injustice to strip a character of SO many issues and very important ones too, with everything that involves. I will never attributte DPS to an inexistent character, the weight of it is something that I found interesting and I think it enrichens Jean so much. As well as everything that she went through and experienced in those issues.

Anyway, just waiting to see how Gillen will tackle this issue. Anxious but excited nonetheless.

[jwatson]

Just wanted to share here too, already posted in the storm thread but wanted to make sure i shared. Appreciated the kind words the other day on the singing picture of Jean/Storm.

[MechaJeanix]

I just think that they should solidify that Jean is something above a host: She is the Phoenix, not a host of Phoenix. And her detractors can cry if they want with that info. I think its not even something that needs to be retconned, its just to connect the evidence presented in many many years.

Ofc if they completely undo the retcon someday I will be even more happier, because I will never not think it was a huge injustice to strip a character of SO many issues and very important ones too, with everything that involves. I will never attributte DPS to an inexistent character, the weight of it is something that I found interesting and I think it enrichens Jean so much. As well as everything that she went through and experienced in those issues.

Anyway, just waiting to see how Gillen will tackle this issue. Anxious but excited nonetheless.

I have this idea, that could be great or really wrong....wouldn't it be cool to have a Phoenix related data page? It could describe the phases of Phoenix -green, red, white, black/red, etc. Or maybe include a hierarchy of hosts or maybe distinguish between a host, an avatar, or other levels of being a phoenix. There is a lot of interesting things that could be done with a Phoenix data page.

I realize many of you are reading this and shaking your heads right now lol I agree it could be dangerous if not done well (and if Jean's importance didn't place the way some of us would want).

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I wonder if they will work on building some kind of relationship (non-romantic) between Cyclops and Echo based on their shared connection to the Phoenix. He was able to sense her presence in Judgment Day #1.

I have this idea, that could be great or really wrong....wouldn't it be cool to have a Phoenix related data page? It could describe the phases of Phoenix -green, red, white, black/red, etc. Or maybe include a hierarchy of hosts or maybe distinguish between a host, an avatar, or other levels of being a phoenix. There is a lot of interesting things that could be done with a Phoenix data page.

I realize many of you are reading this and shaking your heads right now lol I agree it could be dangerous if not done well (and if Jean's importance didn't place the way some of us would want).

A Phoenix data page would at least have the potential to look cool. As far as the bolded, I think that writing is already on the wall; she has no importance.