Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Grinning Soul]

It’s not the Logan Jean attraction that is the problem, it’s what came out of it
Sue Storm had a thing for Namor but since Byrne’s era the stories have never focused on Sue as the thing that boys keep fighting for
Meanwhile Jean’s story has been like that since the Claremont retcon , it increased drastically after the animated series aired and it
movies became a thing because mirroring the media is something comic producers love to make

Logan’s attraction to Jean is understandable but Jean being attracted to Logan doesn’t make sense

You may mention something like the Warren/Jean/Scott from Louise Simonson’s x factor but that was done well , Jean wasn’t just something boys are fighting for but a human with struggles , feelings and was badass

I actually think it makes sense that Jean feels attracted to Logan. But I think the attraction is not really about who he is or his looks, but what he represents and how it makes her feel.

I think her love for him (I mean non-romantic love: used here in the same sense as her love for Ororo or Charles) is about who he is, though.

Personally, Logan (and men like him) does nothing for me. But I can understand why Jean would feel differently. That doesn't mean I like the whole "triangle" dynamics (pre-Krakoa. I refuse to let Marvel waste my time with this badly defined Krakoa BS).

[Mercury]

It's one thing to hope against hope but...from Jean rejecting the Phoenix, to everything Aaron has and is doing with it currently, to Jean's pointed declaration in XM 11...this X-Editorial Office isn't planning on reclaiming that flaming fowl anytime soon. (Thank the Goddess!)

But if you're patient, perhaps a good writer in the next era will make it a pox on Jean and the X-Men once more.

Deva, you always make me cackle. Your use of "fowl" and "pox"...�� ����

But the X-office is just not into JG. I'm glad they haven't just nixed her, but I don't believe we can expect much from her character at this time; especially not a powerup when her presence in the Krakoa era has been about going backwards.

This is simply not true. (You also said they were "never going to get her out of that dress" and they did.) I've come to realize that unless they make Jean Phoenix again and break up her relationship with Scott, you will continue to make sweeping claims about Marvel and the writers not liking nor having any interest in her, even if there is clear evidence to the contrary. I mean, she's been featured on over twenty covers, spanning the last few and into the next several months, but they're not interested in her. lol. More importantly, I'll take the word of two current X-writers over your sardonic pessimism and contrarianism.

[Claremont] ruin[ed] Jean totally for good (hopefully not for good but there are decades worth of damage for the character in the comics and the movies because of Claremont) Claremont damaged her more than anyone ever did

More sweeping claims and judgments. You're on the other side of Kitty on the range of Jean fans-detractors. You gauge whether she is being written well or interestingly by how involved with Scott she is—we've had these conversations several times before—i.e., if she's not with Scott, then she's not being written well. Nothing drives me more insane than this take. It makes me want to jump on Kitty's boat (actually, I would never) and have them break up. I can tell you this much: Jean has a lot of fans, both within and outside of the comic book industry, and it's not because she's been ruined as a character.

You know, I have to remind myself that Jean attracts these kinds of fans and strange takes because she is such a fascinating and mercurial character. Everyone has a "favorite Jean" and thinks they know exactly how she should be written and with whom she should be paired and how she should identify herself. Frankly, I love her because she is so mercurial and contradictory. I relate to her because of that. The fact that she contradicts herself makes her more real and human to me.

thanks. And sorry, "dominated by" was really a weird/miss used expression...

This was cool of you to admit, Exodus. Thanks!

[Mercury]

It’s not the Logan Jean attraction that is the problem, it’s what came out of it...Jean’s story has been like that since the Claremont retcon, it increased drastically after the animated series aired and [the] movies became a thing because mirroring the media is something comic producers love to make. Logan’s attraction to Jean is understandable but Jean being attracted to Logan doesn’t make sense...

Firstly, Jean's potential romantic pairing with Logan has hardly been central to her story. They've shared a handful, maybe two handfuls, of kisses that were mostly prompted by Logan. Otherwise, she's been a good friend to him and him to her, and that's about it. The central relationship in her life has always been Scott, some might say to her detriment. Meanwhile, he's been afforded the opportunity to explore himself through other romantic relationships, which no one seems to have a problem with. To be clear, no one should have a problem with it. By the same token, people shouldn't begrudge Jean because her eyes have wandered or she feels attracted to someone else, especially after all that she's been through and survived, which I can only imagine would change a person in many ways.

This is what I love about what Bendis and other writers during the time-displacement era did: They showed how a young Jean that was thrust into the future and made aware of the tragedies that would eventually befall her would and did change, instead of having her act as if nothing had happened, which would make absolutely no sense. She became angry, hardened, desperate, and determined to right a dystopian future and her own tragic fate no matter how it made her look to anyone else. She was strong and courageous yet also flawed and vulnerable. And even though she loved and eventually wound up back with Scott, their relationship didn't define her or determine her course(s) of action. By the time they had their reunion kiss, I was tearing up and quietly cheering.

Jean is an iconic character, complex and, at times, contradictory, and will always be. I suspect these are some of the aspects of her character that will always keep people interested in her, for ill or good, to make fun of or praise, for better or worse, one way or the other.

...Again [Jean's relationship with the Phoenix] calls to the idea of having something greater inside you, or something that you have to wrestle with and control (kind of like sexuality - I think there is reason so many lgbt fans identify with Ms. Grey).

Hmm. You've given me something to ponder.

Since the Phoenix has been mangled so badly.. I am glad they are showing Jean as the powerful omega mutant that she is. I do want to see more of that but I also want to see more of her as a person - as a fully complex character that transcends the "wife/girlfriend" character so many of the fanboys see her as. I fear some of the creators see her that way as well. I am glad in Duggan's run Jean and Scott are often doing separate things. I think that is the best way to show characters that are couples. Rogue and Gambit are also better in separate books with limited interaction.

I agree with all of this.

It's not for me either. I feel sorry for the entire cast, including Betsy.

As for Howard's writing, I tried X-Corp because I love Warren and it was even worse.

I haven't given X-Corps a try but may just to see what you're talking about.

Thanks. That's sweet, but there are actual rules about staying on topic...

Sometimes conversations organically flow somewhere else, so I guess it's forgivable to deviate a little, but I suppose one should at least try to stay on topic.

If those were real life conversations, I'd eventually link all those topics together (if the person who is talking to me would indulge me), but it doesn't really work online and I have to try to remember that.

Fair enough.

I think I'll have to disagree with both of you. :P

It's an okay scene, but it feels a bit forced to me. I get the intention, but the execution (drawing parallels between their experience with life and death) doesn't work for me, personally. I'd prefer if they had focused on other aspects of their relationship, what creates the bond between them (that already existed before his death)... But that would have worked better with adult Jean, though...

Anyway, I really don't see anything sexual there.

I guess we could argue something about the art, but considering this is a comic book, characters sometimes are drawn in a sexy/sexualised way even when it's not consistent with the actual mood of the scene.

So... who knows?

You make a fair point about the "parallels between their experience[s] [of] life and death" feeling a bit forced. However, I also don't think the parallel was meant to be that deep. He died and came back; so did she. She was simply noting that to herself.

I actually think it makes sense that Jean feels attracted to Logan. But I think the attraction is not really about who he is or his looks, but what he represents and how it makes her feel.

I think her love for him (I mean non-romantic love: used here in the same sense as her love for Ororo or Charles) is about who he is, though.

Personally, Logan (and men like him) does nothing for me. But I can understand why Jean would feel differently. That doesn't mean I like the whole "triangle" dynamics (pre-Krakoa. I refuse to let Marvel waste my time with this badly defined Krakoa BS).

Yes to all of this. Admittedly, I am both repulsed by and strangely attracted to men like Logan, which is a contradiction I've had to contend with and been swept away by before. I totally relate to her attraction to him, but also her love for him as one of her closest friends. Also, I agree with you on the purported polyamorous relationship; it simply doesn't fit either of the three characters.

[I'm a Fish]

I always found the romance between Jean and Logan to be overblown compared to how much it actually happens in the comics. I think that comes from the Wolverine movies and how she comes across as his "greatest love" despite their relationship barley being explored in the movies.

I don't have a preference to Jean with Logan or Jean with Scott. I can see both of their relationships working and being interesting.

[Grinning Soul]

I haven't given X-Corps a try but may just to see what you're talking about.

It's not worthy of your time. And there's no point in reading it because that story led no where. But if one day you find yourself so bored you can't think of absolutely anything else you could do... yeah, I guess, give it a try. It's not the worst comic book I've read.

You make a fair point about the "parallels between their experience[s] [of] life and death" feeling a bit forced. However, I also don't think the parallel was meant to be that deep. He died and came back; so did she. She was simply noting that to herself.

Yeah, it's not a bad scene. It just didn't work super well for me.

Yes to all of this. Admittedly, I am both repulsed by and strangely attracted to men like Logan, which is a contradiction I've had to contend with and been swept away by before. I totally relate to her attraction to him, but also her love for him as one of her closest friends. Also, I agree with you on the purported polyamorous relationship; it simply doesn't fit either of the three characters.

I'm weird, Mercury. Men like Remy also do nothing for me.

But a guy who completes a task perfectly and doesn't expect to be praised or thanked? Who comes up with a plan that would me go: "wow... that's better than what I'd have devised myself"? Who behaves in a way that shows he knows exactly who he is and what he's got to offer (no more, no less) and he has nothing to prove? In other words: owner of a rare quiet confidence?



So if a man would look at me and declare he's the best there is at what he does... I'd have to control myself not to laugh. :D

I confess that for quite some years, Jean's attraction to Logan actually upset me. But I came to understand it wasn't really the attraction but the execution of the triangle. I eventually understood that her attraction to him, if I thought about the context of the woman she's supposed to be, made sense.

She said it herself in X-Men #28 (the 90s blue team): "(...) It wasn't so much what I saw in him as what he made me see in myself. It frightened me. I saw a side I didn't think existed".

I think it ties back to context of Annie's death and how it shaped her to try to be a good person who always follows the rules ('cause when she misbehaves, terrible things happen). Logan often does what he wants. He's a possessor of a freedom she wishes she could give herself. And the fact that she recognises in herself a certain quality of impulsiveness he has tons of, just makes it more tempting to for her to let herself go wild (after all, he gets away with it, why can't she?). He knows (whether consciously or not) and uses it to tease her, exactly because it's effective.

I find her attraction to him actually interesting from a narrative point of view. I came to understand it's one of the many things that makes her so complex and nuanced.

And from the MBTI point of view it also makes sense. It has to do with Fi, which I believe Logan has as his dominant function and Scott as his third (both places are very interesting). Jean, as an Fe-dom, actually admires and is attracted to the strong Fi those 2 have. But anyway, I know this sounds like crazy talk, so I'll stop. :)

I always found the romance between Jean and Logan to be overblown compared to how much it actually happens in the comics. I think that comes from the Wolverine movies and how she comes across as his "greatest love" despite their relationship barley being explored in the movies. :p

Exactly. But I'd add the effect of AUs and other medium as well. On the 616 itself? Nah..

[WallStreeter]

Isn't talking up Rachel as Phoenix just an attempted trolling thing anyway? No one cares about Rachel Phoenix. I imagine even the Rachel fans are more about what separates her from Jean than they are about the copycatting. Hound, Mother Askani.

Anyway, not having issues with cosmic powers is not a story flex. I'm trying to get rid of the writers and editors that want Jean perfect and flawless and non-destructive.

Rachel fans are loving it, myself included.

[I'm a Fish]

I think it ties back to context of Annie's death and how it shaped her to try to be a good person who always follows the rules ('cause when she misbehaves, terrible things happen). Logan often does what he wants. He's a possessor of a freedom she wishes she could give herself. And the fact that she recognises in herself a certain quality of impulsiveness he has tons of, just makes it more tempting to for her to let herself go wild (after all, he gets away with it, why can't she?). He knows (whether consciously or not) and uses it to tease her, exactly because it's effective.

Reminds me of a quote about Jean from Grant Morrison and Claremont: “Claremont gave me the key when he said Jean is actually much kinkier than Emma, but not as demonstrative”

[Grinning Soul]

Reminds me of a quote about Jean from Grant Morrison and Claremont: “Claremont gave me the key when he said Jean is actually much kinkier than Emma, but not as demonstrative”

I actually disagree with this quote... I don't think Jean is reticent to be "demonstrative" at all in the context they meant. The woman is passionate, after all. I think it's more related to actions and her powers. Does it make sense?

EDITED:

Let me try to explain.

Pretend that Jean can use tk but not fly with it. She's in a big city, it's hot and the traffic lights are green for the cars. She knows she can just stop them with her tk or even tp and cross the street. But she doesn't.

A friend is deliberately teasing her about a surprise. She wants to read their minds. She doesn't.

An enemy really angers her and she knows she can shut their minds down or tear their bodies to pieces. She doesn't.

Even finding outlets for her anger can be dangerous. Logan is upset and cuts a tree down, he may be knocking a nest down. She's upset and let lose? She puts down the forest.

Just having her powers would make her suceptible to this temptation to let yourself go, but you simply can't because the consequences can be catastrophic.

But in Jean's case, there's also Annie's accident and the way her powers emerged (and how difficult the 1-3 years after that were - depending on the source) leading to the very deeply set notion into the mind of a young child that actions have consequences and they can be horrific.

On top of that, Xavier's teaching style always was about control. And I think it's actually a good approach (if not the best) when you think of heightened teenage emotions is and how immature their brains are in terms of assessing risk/consequences.

All of this put together creates a person who is more prone to feel attracted to people who allow themselves to be free and do whatever they want. Again, like she said herself: "(...) It wasn't so much what I saw in him as what he made me see in myself. It frightened me. I saw a side I didn't think existed"

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

This is simply not true. (You also said they were "never going to get her out of that dress" and they did.) I've come to realize that unless they make Jean Phoenix again and break up her relationship with Scott, you will continue to make sweeping claims about Marvel and the writers not liking nor having any interest in her, even if there is clear evidence to the contrary. I mean, she's been featured on over twenty covers, spanning the last few and into the next several months, but they're not interested in her. lol. More importantly, I'll take the word of two current X-writers over your sardonic pessimism and contrarianism.

You're cavalier, but dissing her Phoenix stories and Jott shipping are both clear signs of disinterest, in my opinion.


I'm kidding. Jean Grey's arc as she has strived to recall her name over the past 2-3 years has been absolutely astonishing. From being the medium of communication to leaving important Krakoan roles because they are too hard, the writers' collective ability to weave several mundane or uncool moments for the character into one of the most poignant Jean stories ever is uncanny. I have waited with bated breath every week, anxious to see what extraordinary events Jean will get up to next. Last week it was wearing a costume from this century, this week remembering her own name, next week maybe...Baby Rachel?

The bar is set so high with where they have taken Jean Grey recently that I just don't know how they could top themselves. Not sure what's next, but the creators have really shown us what it's like when Jean isn't held back by her uninteresting history and mythology and really cuts loose with her passivity. I can't even think of a word to describe my own hype for what they are going to do to her next. I'm adjectiveless!

[Devaishwarya]

I always found the romance between Jean and Logan to be overblown compared to how much it actually happens in the comics. I think that comes from the Wolverine movies and how she comes across as his "greatest love" despite their relationship barley being explored in the movies.

I don't have a preference to Jean with Logan or Jean with Scott. I can see both of their relationships working and being interesting.

Absolutely.

[WallStreeter]

Honestly, there’s no reason to argue here. No one is responsible for anyone else’s happiness. If someone here wants to hate in everything published by Marvel or shown by the MCU, hate way. It does not take away from my own happiness or the fact I do enjoy the X-Men and Jean Grey these days.

Aaron’s Avengers suck and I dropped them ages ago.

I mean, it is up to the individual to spend their money as they please. If you don’t like something you do mot have to buy it. Or I guess you could spend you money on something you hate. It’s not costing me a dime!

And if someone really doesn’t like something, it’s okay if they don’t like it for whatever reason. That doesn’t mean that person gets to tell me how I must feel about anything.

[Mercury]

You're cavalier, but dissing her Phoenix stories and Jott shipping are both clear signs of disinterest, in my opinion.

Regarding Jean's development, I'm not cavalier; I'm simply optimistic and cognizant of two facts: 1) Comic books are an ever-changing and shifting medium in which nothing remains static and 2) I have no clue what exactly the X-Slack has planned for Jean, any other character, or the franchise as a whole, for that matter. Moreover, as Warlion has tried informing me, apparently, Hickman, whose work I'm not well-versed in, tends to set things up with a "long game" in mind. We may or may not get to see exactly how his decision to have Jean regress to wearing a uniform and using a codename she had long ago renounced—or being in polyamorous relationship with Scott and Logan, for that matter—was going to play into his long game or overall plan for her. However, I do know for a fact—because multiple official sources have told me so—that there are numerous positive developments lined up for her that, according to these sources, I and Jean fans, in general, will very much like and enjoy.

While her developments over the last several months, from spearheading the formation of the new X-Men to showing signs of behaving more like herself by increasingly asserting herself and shedding relics of the past, may not seem like much to you, they seem like precursors to me—signs, if you will—of the developments to come that the aforementioned creatives who are actually working on the books and on her specifically have been kind enough to privately tell me a little about. But, by all means, continue to drone on about how little Marvel and the writers care about her as a character and about how she's really nothing if she's not Phoenix or is stuck in a relationship with Scott, because, you know, that contributes so much to this thread and actually encourages interesting discourse and is conducive her growth and development as a character.

As for the rest of your post: It's so typically you and really doesn't warrant a response, lol.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

They already explained the costume. She was going back to pre-Phoenix days and that's what she wore in the moon fight and in Phoenix Resurrection. The idea of a new hero identity came up but they didn't feel like it. That was said in one of the AIPT articles.

As far as what people are saying in DMs, I will see it when/if it hits the page. If you see greatness and tender loving care in most of these post-Taylor Jean stories, hey cool, call them as you see them.

As far as the discourse, that's more a function of little to nothing of interest happening with the character, which is why the costume discussion is prevalent in absence of a narrative or story conflict related to Jean. The regression in costume/effectiveness is a result of the negative feelings toward a powerful Jean, WHICH are related to the shipping, as was intimated earlier, Claremont being ruinous for Jean and all

[Del torro]

The funny thing about that Jean Wolvie statue moment is they had Adult Jean pretty much not react to the thought of Logan being back. I think they showed her in one of those 10,000 Wolverine Comes Back tie-in issues and she tries to help for like two seconds and fails (because she's Jean duh) and that was it lmao

Urgh, that return of wolverine book was awful.

Because a out of his mind wolverine with fire claws is going to beat a team made up of Jean, Iceman, storm (3 omegas) and Kitty (an intangible ninja) smh.

And of course, Jean can't read his mind, because......
Anyway, look at this really cool fire claws

[Grey]

Firstly, Jean's potential romantic pairing with Logan has hardly been central to her story. They've shared a handful, maybe two handfuls, of kisses that were mostly prompted by Logan. Otherwise, she's been a good friend to him and him to her, and that's about it. The central relationship in her life has always been Scott, some might say to her detriment. Meanwhile, he's been afforded the opportunity to explore himself through other romantic relationships, which no one seems to have a problem with. To be clear, no one should have a problem with it. By the same token, people shouldn't begrudge Jean because her eyes have wandered or she feels attracted to someone else, especially after all that she's been through and survived, which I can only imagine would change a person in many ways.

This is what I love about what Bendis and other writers during the time-displacement era did: They showed how a young Jean that was thrust into the future and made aware of the tragedies that would eventually befall her would and did change, instead of having her act as if nothing had happened, which would make absolutely no sense. She became angry, hardened, desperate, and determined to right a dystopian future and her own tragic fate no matter how it made her look to anyone else. She was strong and courageous yet also flawed and vulnerable. And even though she loved and eventually wound up back with Scott, their relationship didn't define her or determine her course(s) of action. By the time they had their reunion kiss, I was tearing up and quietly cheering.

Jean is an iconic character, complex and, at times, contradictory, and will always be. I suspect these are some of the aspects of her character that will always keep people interested in her, for ill or good, to make fun of or praise, for better or worse, one way or the other.



Hmm. You've given me something to ponder.



I agree with all of this.



I haven't given X-Corps a try but may just to see what you're talking about.



Fair enough.



You make a fair point about the "parallels between their experience[s] [of] life and death" feeling a bit forced. However, I also don't think the parallel was meant to be that deep. He died and came back; so did she. She was simply noting that to herself.



Yes to all of this. Admittedly, I am both repulsed by and strangely attracted to men like Logan, which is a contradiction I've had to contend with and been swept away by before. I totally relate to her attraction to him, but also her love for him as one of her closest friends. Also, I agree with you on the purported polyamorous relationship; it simply doesn't fit either of the three characters.

Bear with me, I’m on a phone so it’s hard to quote specific segments.

1. Re Bendis and teen jean: I will always backup people with good opinions of his portrayals of her. Here’s the thing, I do think Bendis characters can come off as teenage soap opera that sounds “out of character”. But that’s exactly why I think he was the BEST possible writer for the 05. His writing styles work a lot better with characters in this age range that have strong convictions.i think history will be kind to bendis’s run with the 05- at least with teen jean. I truly think his writing was virtually meant for that story, and I’m my unofficially headcanon, teen jean’s growth spurred the return of the adult.

2. Re the purported poly relationship. My feelings have evolved over time but here’s how I deee it now:


As a gay man, and given decades of subtext, I both celebrated iceman’s coming out and thought that it felt natural. /b wish’s I coulda given you my snnogods without saying a lot of folks didn’t feel this way about the rebel.

I’ve come to try and respect this supposed l poly thing with a similar mind tat let’s me 100% . When I see jean I don’t see past poly subtext (for long term relationships). But a lot of icrmanab folks who felt his coming out was “forced l also said similar thngs. So who knows, maybe off panel jean has developers led a healthy concept of a poly relationship that sincerely is healthy for her. I’m going to start taking the character’s lead on this issue, just like I wish many people would with iceman. I feel our character choicesshould go given room to evokvez, sometimes even off panel. (TLDR: I wouldn’t have chosen the path for jean but I will support her decision as long as they aren’t harming anyone. (NOTE: I hit submit early, still adding more to response l***