Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Gray Lensman]

Yes, thank you! The way Emma talks to( or talks down to) everyone is awful. She should really have barely any real friends the way she treats people.



I think it is unrealistic. Mutual respect and tolerance I can understand but true friendship? No way. People that don't like each other can still work well together for the greater good though. I don't know why it has to go any further than that. What is this need so many writers and fans have for everyone to be lovey dovey and bestest friends with Emma Frost of all people. I am already bothered by the friendship Kitty has developed with her. Storm, Jean, and Kitty should be able to maintain a good working relationship with her, but nothing beyond that. Emma Frost is not that lovable, everyone! If she existed in real life no one would like her superior attitude or her underhanded ways.



Yep, and even forgetting all the hurt and suffering she caused Jean, they are just too different to be friends. Emma is abrasive, condescending, and too morally dubious ON TOP of all the crap she has pulled over the years.



Yeah, I have been participating in these polls. I don't understand why so many people are after Jean in the comments. Where does all the hate come from? She was unfortunately dead for most of the last 20 years already and she is a great and actually nice and caring character. We need more of that in the X-Men. My favorite X-Man, Gambit, is getting a lot of bad comments too. I am hoping he at least makes it to the top 10, but he does have a lot of haters sadly. It seems people either love or hate him.



Exactly. Very well said. I can't even add anything to this lol.

Where the hate comes from is the nature of the internet. The most miserable voices are the loudest, anything that is not the best is the worst, and every character is boiled down to their worst moments, usually with any context ignored.

Gambit is a sad ripoff of better characters who went out of style long ago, Logan is a hypocritical murderhobo, and a sexual harasser to boot, Jean is a harlot who is leading on multiple men, Emma is an flat out evil homewrecking bitch who is solely responsible for the Dark Phoenix (Wyngarde? Never heard of him!), and Scott, well he is a bigger philanderer than that Bond person, dropping wives at the drop of a hat for no good reason (again leaving out context such as Scott and Maddie displaying incompatible moralities when Loki was offering a false paradise for the lives of ALL the magic heroes - hardly a recipe for a lasting relationship). Again, it's the internet.

[Mercury]

I'll respond in more detail later, if I can—I’m in the middle of juggling several papers and presentations at once 😭—but it seems that some people are conflating their preferences with what’s possible or impossible. People change; so do characters. I’ll quote my response to Grinning Soul, who asked for my definition of “friend”:

Let me cite Oxford’s definition, which, for the most part, I agree with:

friend — a person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations.

However, friendship is not just about two people knowing and feeling affection for one another; it also entails profound acceptance of one another’s flaws and weaknesses. Moreover, I believe it possible for people who are vastly different and diametrically opposed—even enemies—to become friends. Admittedly, I am an optimist.

Keep in mind, I suggested that I would be interested in seeing Jean and Emma’s relationship evolve into a friendship, which ideally would take time (and nuance) to develop. Nevertheless, their shared history has all of the ingredients that would make for a complex and realistic friendship.

I’ll talk to you all later!

[Grinning Soul]

I'll respond in more detail later, if I can—I’m in the middle of juggling several papers and presentations at once ��—but it seems that some people are conflating their preferences with what’s possible or impossible. People change; so do characters. I’ll quote my response to Grinning Soul, who asked for my definition of “friend”:



I’ll talk to you all later!

I don't think in this case it makes much difference, Mercury, because it *is* a personal issue. It depends on what you consider is friendship. Depending on how you see it, it won't be convincing no matter how well it's written. [EDITED: and this is not even exclusive to Jean and Emma. It's true for any two characters. Depending on how you see friendship, you just won't see certain characters being friends].

Now, the writers will write whatever they want for whatever reason they might have. But it doesn't mean it will ring true for everyone. Can't you just accept that? When it comes to subjective matters, people will disagree without necessarily being right or wrong.

I'm more interested in listening to their perspective.

For instance, I heard people telling me that they really believe that if you can't "forget" (not literally, of course), it means you didn't really "forgive". And while I don't feel this is true in my heart, I truly understand their point.

[WallStreeter]

Yes, thank you! The way Emma talks to( or talks down to) everyone is awful. She should really have barely any real friends the way she treats people.



I think it is unrealistic. Mutual respect and tolerance I can understand but true friendship? No way. People that don't like each other can still work well together for the greater good though. I don't know why it has to go any further than that. What is this need so many writers and fans have for everyone to be lovey dovey and bestest friends with Emma Frost of all people. I am already bothered by the friendship Kitty has developed with her. Storm, Jean, and Kitty should be able to maintain a good working relationship with her, but nothing beyond that. Emma Frost is not that lovable, everyone! If she existed in real life no one would like her superior attitude or her underhanded ways.



Yep, and even forgetting all the hurt and suffering she caused Jean, they are just too different to be friends. Emma is abrasive, condescending, and too morally dubious ON TOP of all the crap she has pulled over the years.


Exactly. Very well said. I can't even add anything to this lol.

Emma has also saved the day quite a bit over the years. Her underhanded ways her necessary. Plus Emma is far from the only underhanded person in Jean’s life. Cyclops and Wolverine have done terrible things. So did Jean as Dark Phoenix.

Krakoa is about new beginnings, and yes new friendships have formed.

[thjan]

Where the hate comes from is the nature of the internet. The most miserable voices are the loudest, anything that is not the best is the worst, and every character is boiled down to their worst moments, usually with any context ignored.

Gambit is a sad ripoff of better characters who went out of style long ago, Logan is a hypocritical murderhobo, and a sexual harasser to boot, Jean is a harlot who is leading on multiple men, Emma is an flat out evil homewrecking bitch who is solely responsible for the Dark Phoenix (Wyngarde? Never heard of him!), and Scott, well he is a bigger philanderer than that Bond person, dropping wives at the drop of a hat for no good reason (again leaving out context such as Scott and Maddie displaying incompatible moralities when Loki was offering a false paradise for the lives of ALL the magic heroes - hardly a recipe for a lasting relationship). Again, it's the internet.

Too true, and I will admit I have at times been guilty of it myself. As is evident from my earlier post I am not the biggest fan of Emma Frost(or Quentin Quire). I do try to avoid posting in threads dedicated to her appreciation or threads about issues where she stars just to badmouth her. Also, I wouldn't say that Emma Frost is a bad character or not worthy of being included in the comics, I just on a personal level don't like her whole attitude and Schick. Everyone is someone's favorite and I usually try my best to respect that even if it is difficult at times and I fail at other times. I know from personal experience how exhausting it is to read post after post and thread after thread saying your favorite character is lame, terrible, worthless, and undeveloped and shallow(seriously have they read no comics with Gambit from the last 20 years).

[thjan]

Emma has also saved the day quite a bit over the years. Her underhanded ways her necessary. Plus Emma is far from the only underhanded person in Jean’s life. Cyclops and Wolverine have done terrible things. So did Jean as Dark Phoenix.

I am not saying that Emma Frost has not done good things or isn't overall a force for good now, I am just saying that doesn't automatically provide the basis or the need to form a friendship with absolutely everyone. Like I said mutual respect and being able to work together well is fine, but real true friendship I think is taking it too far with some characters. Like even more than Jean, Storm should only ever have a professional working relationship with her.

[BobbysWorld]

Complete random aside, as I was rereading the original X-Factor run earlier and I was reminded of this scene of Jean and Bobby trying to be stern with the X-Terminator kids for sneaking out to go give all their Christmas gifts away at the local children's hospital.....ah man, X-Factor's mentorship of Rusty, Skids, Julio, Tabitha, Leech, Artie and Taki remains one of the most underrated 'classes' of mutant students for me. They had such great dynamics at times.

RCO021_1468885707 (2).jpg

[Grinning Soul]

Complete random aside, as I was rereading the original X-Factor run earlier and I was reminded of this scene of Jean and Bobby trying to be stern with the X-Terminator kids for sneaking out to go give all their Christmas gifts away at the local children's hospital.....ah man, X-Factor's mentorship of Rusty, Skids, Julio, Tabitha, Leech, Artie and Taki remains one of the most underrated 'classes' of mutant students for me. They had such great dynamics at times.

RCO021_1468885707 (2).jpg

I agree. There's so much Louise Simonson gets right in this book, it's hard to talk about it without gushing! :)

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I am not saying that Emma Frost has not done good things or isn't overall a force for good now, I am just saying that doesn't automatically provide the basis or the need to form a friendship with absolutely everyone. Like I said mutual respect and being able to work together well is fine, but real true friendship I think is taking it too far with some characters. Like even more than Jean, Storm should only ever have a professional working relationship with her.

Also, it's good for the characters to have actual personalities and memories. No one's hanging out with the person that essentially psychologically abused them, let someone have sex with their friend while she was unconscious, and then made an effort to break up their relationship. Making the characters act like best friends is so cheesy. Like, why even have canon and characterization at that point?

[WallStreeter]

Also, it's good for the characters to have actual personalities and memories. No one's hanging out with the person that essentially psychologically abused them, let someone have sex with their friend while she was unconscious, and then made an effort to break up their relationship. Making the characters act like best friends is so cheesy. Like, why even have canon and characterization at that point?

I feel people project their own personal pain onto the characters. There’s no reason for Jean and Emma to hate each other. No reason for Emma and Storm to hate each other. Those rivalries are back from the day when they far fewer female characters, and from when writers had to make the two female characters around fight each other. Emma was introduced as an enemy to Jean, then Storm in 1980. Decades later, it’s literally a different world.

I’m happy Kitty and Emma are friends.

I’m happy the X-Men show that people can forgive people. Emma has nothing done nothing bad to the X-Men in quite sometime abd has saved the day on multiple occasions. It makes characters like Kitty, Jean, and Storm string women who can acknowledge the change in Emma, all they good she has done, and move forward and give Emma genuine acceptance.

Trying to hate and condemn someone forever for past wrongdoings is wrong and hypocritical.

[WallStreeter]

Complete random aside, as I was rereading the original X-Factor run earlier and I was reminded of this scene of Jean and Bobby trying to be stern with the X-Terminator kids for sneaking out to go give all their Christmas gifts away at the local children's hospital.....ah man, X-Factor's mentorship of Rusty, Skids, Julio, Tabitha, Leech, Artie and Taki remains one of the most underrated 'classes' of mutant students for me. They had such great dynamics at times.

RCO021_1468885707 (2).jpg

They should bring back Leech, Artur, and Skids. Now people only member Cable being the mentor to Julio and Tabitha. Rusty was killed by Holocaust. I don’t believe he has been resurrected.

[thjan]

I feel people project their own personal pain onto the characters. There’s no reason for Jean and Emma to hate each other. No reason for Emma and Storm to hate each other. Those rivalries are back from the day when they far fewer female characters, and from when writers had to make the two female characters around fight each other. Emma was introduced as an enemy to Jean, then Storm in 1980. Decades later, it’s literally a different world.

I’m happy Kitty and Emma are friends.

I’m happy the X-Men show that people can forgive people. Emma has nothing done nothing bad to the X-Men in quite sometime abd has saved the day on multiple occasions. It makes characters like Kitty, Jean, and Storm string women who can acknowledge the change in Emma, all they good she has done, and move forward and give Emma genuine acceptance.

Trying to hate and condemn someone forever for past wrongdoings is wrong and hypocritical.

But forgiving Frost, not condemning her, accepting that she is changed and trying to do better, and giving respect and support as allies is NOT the same as being real friends with her and it shouldn't a requirement to be on the same side and allies. And that is what the main disagreement is about. Not all the characters are friends with Gambit and some actively dislike him but that doesn't bother me as a fan, it makes things more interesting and real. Not everyone has to be good friends just because they are big name characters. Also, Frost not doing anything bad to anyone in a while is a big stretch. She very, very recently as far as in-universe comic time goes, used and tricked the X-Men during the Inhuman fiasco and in her takeover of the Hellfire club, and she certainly does not show a lot of respect to people with the way she talks to them even to this day.

And to Mercury's point about how people that are different can be friends, I definitely agree. I have experienced that in my actual life. People that are very different can definitely be friends, I guess I meant to say Jean and Emma are too different in all the ways that truly count. No matter how different friends are there still have to be some fundamental things they agree on. It is not JUST that Jean and Emma have bad history. It is not JUST that they have different methods for getting things done. It is not JUST that their personalities clash. It is not JUST that they have different outlooks on life in general. It is not JUST that they disagree on how to treat people. It is all those things combined and more that make them incompatible as friends. I think Emma is getting the same push that Wolverine got in making him friends with everyone and being put on every team solely because he is so popular with writers and fans. Look, I like Wolverine, but that doesn't mean I think he should be buddies with everyone. Same as with Jean and Emma, characters like Captain America and Cyclops should have always maintained a professional working relationship and grudging respect for Wolverine, but not real friends. Sadly that ship has sailed and now all the characters have to think he is the best and old chums just because he is popular. Things seem to be going the same way with Emma. It is alright for not everyone to get along you know. That was what actually made Wolveroine interesting in the old days, not everyone got along with him and while they learned to work well together that didn't seem to be going to change.

[Subliminally]

[thjan]

Awesome! I thought the Gala outfit was great and so is this regular uniform version.

[Soulsword323]

The modified Gala design is great. Really hits so many points I look for in a Jean costume: sleek, elegant, and no pointless body armor.