Page 252 of 315 FirstFirst ... 152202242248249250251252253254255256262302 ... LastLast
Results 3,766 to 3,780 of 4719
  1. #3766
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    Fiery patterns…

    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  2. #3767
    2022: The Year of Hellion Rift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,296

    Default

    That Artgerm pic is so freaking pretty
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Hellion is the talk of the boards and rightfully so.

  3. #3768
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The Ocean
    Posts
    3,411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    While Duggan has undoubtedly been teasing out Jean renouncing her old garb and moniker, I'm not sure that it will lead to her reclaiming her Phoenix iconography, i.e., the Phoenix codename or costume. Still, you bring up a good point: Traditionally, Judgement Day is just the kind of event that would feature and even highlight a moment or twist like Jean becoming Phoenix again. However, I think it's more likely that this event will serve as a pivotal moment for establishing her current psychological state, perhaps including her reasoning for dropping the Marvel Girl veneer.

    Based on what Gillen has said, he seems intent on tapping into Jean's history as Phoenix and with Madelyne Pryor. Incidentally, while some have a been there, done that attitude about this—understandably so!—I 1) think it's important, especially in this era, to reestablish core aspects of characters' mythos to remind long-time and inform newer readers of their various facets, and 2) am beyond excited to have a writer as capable and talented as Gillen doing the reminding. Besides, I think he'll do a little more with Jean than just rehash older stories.
    I don't think something like that will happen in the comics until Jean in brought into the MCU and the if/when they adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga.

    The comics like to piggy-back off MCU successes so that's the only time I see the Jean becoming Phoenix again outside of cover-bait, flashbacks and alternate-universe stories. (or whenever Aaron stops hogging Phoenix and giving it to every-other character, lol)
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  4. #3769
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    You say you are a Jean Grey fan but then you post something like this.... I am focusing on the "Jean being the weakest" part. You are wrong, Jean was never the weakest.
    I'm not exactly a Jean fan, it's more of a mild interest lol.

    And early stories had Jean being an inconsistent mess, she did start managing to casually lift Hank and a group of women, but then a few times she couldn't lift Hank for longer than a few seconds before getting tired, which made it look like she got weaker despite the story making in clear the X-Men were training a lot, in situations like that she really didn't look impressive.

    I think inconsistencies like that stopped around the time Juggernaut debutted, maybe a bit before, but unfortunately Jean suffered from this inconsistency early on anyways, she could look like one of the strongest members, or one of the weakest lol.

    6) Bobby was a walking snowman. Jean was way more powerful
    Bobby is another who was implied to be far weaker than he really was lol.

    Despite the story getting annoying about how immature he was, he could do a lot of nonsense with his ice, and unlike Cyke and Jean, he never ever got tired, and while he was immature, he wasn't really dumb with how his powers got used, so the story implying he was weak was always weird for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    But even in the earliest stories, she wasn't the weakest. I mean, in addition to taking Hank for a spin, she was able to lift five soldiers (that's about 750 lbs right there) and grab hold of and redirect a live missile into the ocean all in issue #1. Between issues #1 and #10, she used her telekinesis to lift six women several feet in the air and transport them, redirect Bobby's ice pellets at him at high speeds, stop Quicksilver mid-run twice and spin him midair, take apart a rifle and reassemble it with expert precision, topple a dinosaur, and overwhelm Scarlet Witch. (To verify this, see this long ass thread: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...79233021689865)
    Yeah, that was bad wording on my part and I'm sorry about that.

    My point was supposed to be the usual one I make about Jean back then, that she was inconsistent and at times she looked weaker, but again, even with the blatant sexism Lee/Kirby had about women back then, Jean still had her fair share of impressive moments and stopped being as inconsistent after a while.

    Not to say she was the only inconsistent one, in X-Men#3, all the X-Men look like a bunch of incompetent buffoons because they all lost to a fucking circus, not even an evil circus too like Circus of Crime... This happened after X-Men#1 had them fighting Magneto well, but among the X-Men she was hurt the most by inconsistency until that stopped in around halfway point of Lee/Kirby run.

    One of my favorite of Lee and Kirby's X-Men pages is the one below (from issue #17 or #18), which was from the end of their run and shows her both multitasking and being instrumental to the success and, frankly, survival of the team.

    My favorite one was when she grabbed Pietro when he was running, both times lol.

    Was extra funny because I was reading those issues not long before Dark Ages#3 came out, in which Jean shuts down Pietro with her telepathy, combine that with her grabbing Pietro in X-Men comics immediately reminded me of when she did the same thing in one episode of X-Men Evolution (I think it was Wanda's debut episode), so it made it look like Pietro is Jean's personal punching bag for me lol.

    It is weird, but, as I noted previously, I think Claremont wanted to underscore how drastic her transformation into Phoenix was. Nevertheless, the fact that Claremont liked Jean before he got to work on her—he was the one that decided to bring her back after Lein wrote her leaving the team—is a testament to the fact that she was both complex (e.g., sensitive but assertive) and powerful from the very beginning. It's clear he wanted to highlight these qualities of hers more than they had been during the original run.
    Honestly, fact he wanted to make Jean be strong enough to defeat Thor (Not a small feat back then) is already an indication of this favoritism, and that's before we get into Dark Phoenix starting with Jean's power being around Galactus' level and only increasing from there lol.

    Aw! While I find your fervent defense of Jean sweet, Lukemendes is a Jean fan and means no harm. He and I have discussed this topic before.
    It's "Luk".

    Hardest username to write correctly I swear lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I completely understand your skepticism. Hell, I've questioned a few Jean fans on here myself. But I can assure you, Lukemendes
    Man, twice in a row...



    .

    is cool.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I don't think something like that will happen in the comics until Jean in brought into the MCU and the if/when they adapt the Dark Phoenix Saga.

    The comics like to piggy-back off MCU successes so that's the only time I see the Jean becoming Phoenix again outside of cover-bait, flashbacks and alternate-universe stories. (or whenever Aaron stops hogging Phoenix and giving it to every-other character, lol)
    It depends, whether or not MCU synergy gonna happen is arbitrary, we had Wanda taking control of Chthon a few months ago, and now in Doctor Strange 2 she was mostly the Darkhold's puppet.

    Not to mention the whole nonsense of Phoenix being Thor's mother, and I doubt Echo will be getting Phoenix in whatever series she's gonna have too.

    So maybe a possible X-Men movie could affect Jean, or maybe it wouldn't, it depends on Marvel's mood, or even what the movies do with her.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  5. #3770
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    does anyone have links to the interview where it is mentioned that Jean was given phoenix to put her on the power levels of Ororo? The link i had now has dead images. if so you can dm me.
    Firstly, the interviews you are referencing were part of an article and retrospective in The Comics Journal #50 (1979) and Fantagraphics Books' 1982 volume The X-Men Companion [TXC], respectively. Both interviews were referenced in Back Issue! #54 (2013). I have copies of the latter (i.e., Back Issue! #54), which I will post relevant scans of below, and will be getting access to the former (i.e., The Comics Journal #50), though I also have the relevant quotes from that article on hand and will share a link to them below. As for The X-Men Companion, I am in the process of searching for it.

    Now that clarifying the sources is out of the way, neither Claremont nor Cockrum ever stated or implied that "Jean was given Phoenix to put her on the power levels of Ororo." In fact, Claremont made quite the opposite clear: Phoenix was meant to be the X-Men's first female cosmic superhero. (NOTE: There is some evidence that suggests she was actually Marvel's first female cosmic superhero, but I'm still researching that.) However, after he was met with resistance from the editorial staff—they weren't keen on having a female cosmic superhero—he was forced to reduce Phoenix's powers to Storm's levels. In The Comics Journal #50 (this is referenced in the Back Issue! page posted below), Claremont admitted:

    "Dave and I kind of liked the idea that we had a female character who was cosmic. No one else did...Len Wein objected strenuously to our using Firelord if Phoenix beat him. We couldn’t have a lady character who’s cosmic, because – well, his argument was that it made the rest of the X-Men superfluous. We got around it by having the fight be a draw.”
    Not only does the above quote confirm that Jean/Phoenix was intended to be the X-Men's first female cosmic superhero—again, I'm not yet sure if she would've been Marvel's first—but it also makes it implicitly clear that, at the time, Storm was not considered a cosmic superhero. Additionally, during the same interview for The Comics Journal, Claremont continued:

    “So anyway, we were told, Dave and I, that Phoenix could not be cosmic...And when the editor passes down an edict, you’re stuck with it. We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.”
    He also expounded:

    “Phoenix is actually Marvel Girl at her ultimate extent...Phoenix in [Uncanny] X-Men #108, when she saved the universe, was Jean Grey achieving her fullest potential as an entity.”
    (NOTE: As I noted above, the last two quotes from The Comics Journal are not included in the Back Issue! article. Instead, a quote from The X-Men Companion is referenced. As soon as I get access to the direct scans of The Comics Journal article, which should be within the next 1-2 days—I subscribed to their archives subscription—I will post them, too. Here is the source for the last two The Comic Journal quotes: http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot...x%20beat%20him.)

    Frankly, the above quotes speak for themselves. Now, the quote from The X-Men Companion, which was published in 1982—three years after The Comics Journal interview above—and referenced in the second Back Issue! page posted below, is as follows:

    "We had originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's [another of the new X-Men], and that the saving the universe was a one-time-only stunt, that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment...she was drawing on the X-Men for help."
    In the quote above, Claremont claims that he and Cockrum had "originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level...equivalent to Storm's," which slightly contradicts what he said three years earlier when he noted, "We had to cut [Jean/Phoenix] back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is." In either case, the same applies: Not only was the creation of Phoenix not influenced by Storm but Jean/Phoenix at her full potential was considered more powerful than Storm. Moreover, Jean/Phoenix's M'Kraan Crystal feat was meant to showcase her abilities at their fullest potential, which Cockrum confirms, substantiating Claremont's claims above:

    “Actually, when we introduced Phoenix I don’t think we intended for her to keep super cosmic powers, because the rest of the group becomes superfluous then...Chris had said something about using the power to save the universe in X-Men #108 (in 1977), but that wiped it to such a degree that it reduced her powers. And after that, theoretically, she was not supposed to be that super-cosmic person.”
    In either case and to reiterate, it is clear that the introduction of Phoenix was 1) not influenced by Storm's power levels; 2) meant to be the introduction of the first female cosmic superhero; 3) meant to represent Jean's full potential as a psi; and 4) was conceived as being more powerful than Storm.

    Before I share the Back Issue! pages, I also want to note the following: Jean was categorized by a highly-advanced, bio-sensor-equipped A.I., which were not prone to hyperbole at the time, as having "infinite mental powers" in Uncanny X-Men #48 in 1968. Incidentally, in that same issue she was able to use her telepathy to psi-scan and track an "electronic [robot] brain," which was unheard of then and is rare even now.

    This was all nearly a decade before Claremont became the writer for X-Men and introduced Phoenix, or as some of you so affectionately refer to it as: "the burnt chicken." I point this out to underscore the fact that Jean's abilities being referred to as "infinite" far predates Claremont and his Phoenix stories. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this is why Jean, as Louise Simonson noted, was his "total favorite." (Here is the video source for Simonson's quote: https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...32186242916357)





    Last edited by Mercury; 05-24-2022 at 04:22 PM.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  6. #3771
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I'm not exactly a Jean fan, it's more of a mild interest lol.
    You bastard! After I defended you, too... GET OUT!



    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    And early stories had Jean being an inconsistent mess, she did start managing to casually lift Hank and a group of women, but then a few times she couldn't lift Hank for longer than a few seconds before getting tired, which made it look like she got weaker despite the story making in clear the X-Men were training a lot, in situations like that she really didn't look impressive.
    Chalk that up to a combination of sexism and lack of creativity, dear. In either case, from issue #1, her telekinetic abilities were formidable, despite the inconsistencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, that was bad wording on my part and I'm sorry about that.

    My point was supposed to be the usual one I make about Jean back then, that she was inconsistent and at times she looked weaker, but again, even with the blatant sexism Lee/Kirby had about women back then, Jean still had her fair share of impressive moments and stopped being as inconsistent after a while.

    Not to say she was the only inconsistent one, in X-Men#3, all the X-Men look like a bunch of incompetent buffoons because they all lost to a fucking circus, not even an evil circus too like Circus of Crime... This happened after X-Men#1 had them fighting Magneto well, but among the X-Men she was hurt the most by inconsistency until that stopped in around halfway point of Lee/Kirby run.
    No need to apologize, love. I know you mean well. Also, the rest of your response here is fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    My favorite one was when she grabbed Pietro when he was running, both times lol.

    Was extra funny because I was reading those issues not long before Dark Ages#3 came out, in which Jean shuts down Pietro with her telepathy, combine that with her grabbing Pietro in X-Men comics immediately reminded me of when she did the same thing in one episode of X-Men Evolution (I think it was Wanda's debut episode), so it made it look like Pietro is Jean's personal punching bag for me lol.
    Yeah, Jean has worked Pietro quite a few times, lol.

    [QUOTE=Lukmendes;6061123]Honestly, fact he wanted to make Jean be strong enough to defeat Thor (Not a small feat back then) is already an indication of this favoritism, and that's before we get into Dark Phoenix starting with Jean's power being around Galactus' level and only increasing from there lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It's "Luk".

    Hardest username to write correctly I swear lol.

    Man, twice in a row...


    I swear...between that avatar and your finickiness regarding your name—I've seen you correct others before—could you be any more endearing, Luk? 🥹
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  7. #3772
    Incredible Member Omega_DCD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    631

    Default





    Like we recently said....That's Jean, lol

  8. #3773
    Astonishing Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Appalachia
    Posts
    2,026

    Default

    I'm loving all the Jean covers. I am hoping for good things coming up in both X-men (including the Gala one shot) and Judgement Day. There was a time I was skeptical if Jean was going to get a new look because she felt so branded as Marvel Girl in this current era. Seeing Jean in the new costume is sort of exciting. I hope Jean gets some good characterization in Judgement Day but I also want her to get plenty of action.

  9. #3774
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    I'm loving all the Jean covers. I am hoping for good things coming up in both X-men (including the Gala one shot) and Judgement Day. There was a time I was skeptical if Jean was going to get a new look because she felt so branded as Marvel Girl in this current era. Seeing Jean in the new costume is sort of exciting. I hope Jean gets some good characterization in Judgement Day but I also want her to get plenty of action.
    After all that I've seen and heard within the last two months, I think it's safe to feel both hopeful and excited for Jean's treatment and development over the next several months to two years. I also think it's safe to say that Jean has slowly been and is going to continue getting the best treatment she has since pre-HoX/PoX.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  10. #3775
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    In the quote above, Claremont claims that he and Cockrum had "originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level...equivalent to Storm's," which slightly contradicts what he said three years earlier when he noted, "We had to cut [Jean/Phoenix] back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is."
    It could be a case of him remembering poorly, or maybe he changed a bit of what happened to not sound as much of a contrarian, or maybe it's to hide to blatant sexism that was going on with the excuses of why Jean couldn't be that strong.

    This all assuming that the original statement, that some didn't want a woman being that strong is the most truthful one too, though by being the oldest one, and the times it was said (Once Bronze Age Supes started, his powers became about a third weaker, and when DC was asked if that meant Supergirl was now stronger than him, supposedly the answer was "No, because women aren't stronger than men"), it's most likely to be the truthful one, while the later ones try to make the whole situation look less bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    You bastard! After I defended you, too...
    Well, I tricked you into thinking I'm a fan and you got my username wrong twice, guess this is a mutually painful relationship .

    GET OUT!



    Jokes aside, I can be real slow to become emotionally invested in stuff enough to consider myself a fan, and once I become a fan then there's the usual heightened glee if something cool happens and heightened annoyance if bad writing happens.

    To use Spidey as an example, I think ASM#1 vol 6 is bad, bad enough that I'll be dropping ASM for a few months (And even made me consider dropping comics in general for a few months again), it screwed both Spidey and MJ who are among my favorites, I just don't wanna put up with Wells' writing for a while after that, but if similar stuff happens with characters I'm interested in but don't consider myself to be a fan of, I'll be annoyed but not nearly as much.

    So yeah, I think Jean is cool, stuff I've seen about her character is interesting a̶n̶d̶ ̶I̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶U̶l̶t̶i̶m̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶A̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶2̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶g̶e̶r̶̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶l̶e̶v̶e̶l̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶k̶i̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶, and I check her out once in a while, but for me, calling myself a "fan" is a big deal, and it'd feel like I'm lying if I said I was one, and I don't like lying.

    Chalk that up to a combination of sexism and lack of creativity, dear. In either case, from issue #1, her telekinetic abilities were formidable, despite the inconsistencies.
    Yeah, Jean was the type whose highs were surprisingly high (I expected her to faint easily like in the 90's cartoon, which didn't happen at any point), but unfortunately had embarrassing lows too.

    Though I think if we count all characters, the one who had it worse was Magneto, went from strong enough to deal with the X-Men alone, but after he formed the Brotherhood, he forgot how overpowered he was, and at his worse, just ran away at random despite still being able to fight, though at least the last two issues of Lee/Kirby run he remembers he was overpowered (And even knocked down most X-Men without his powers for some reason lol).

    I swear...between that avatar and your finickiness regarding your name—I've seen you correct others before—could you be any more endearing, Luk? ��
    Well, sometimes I find patterns that may or may not be intentional in stories, if that's considered endearing I guess.

    I'll probably have a headache once I reach Claremont's run, that guy has a lot of patterns to the point I've seen the youtuber Comic Tropes make a drinking game out of "Claremont-isms" in a random issue and he was tipsy by the end of the video lol.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 05-24-2022 at 07:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  11. #3776
    Fantastic Member The Thunderbird's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    345

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega_DCD View Post


    Like we recently said....That's Jean, lol
    As a speedster Quicksilver should be used to such force. So imagine if Jean would use the same amount of force on a normal person she could probably kill them.

  12. #3777
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    I'm posting this response here too because I think it's important to the overall discourse about Jean in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I think Claremont was very clear. Jean was set to Storm's level on Earth and Storm would have eventually reached the level of phoenix as she explored space now. Storm was not cosmic at first but once she went into space she learned she could control the cosmic storm a new aspect of her power. When Jean got phoenix she skipped the earthly stuff and went right to cosmic but had to be brought back down and as such was settled at the high level storm already was on earth.
    Yes, Claremont was very clear. As he revealed in Phoenix: The Untold Story (1984), when he and Cockrum initially conceived of Jean as Phoenix, they wanted her to be "the X-Men analog, if you will, to Thor—someone who was essentially the first female cosmic hero—" and defeat him or Silver Surfer in a fight, but editor Jim Shooter balked. (I've shared the page containing Claremont's quote below.)



    This is substantiated by the quotes from 1979 I shared in my previous post, in which Claremont explicitly stated, "[Dave and I] were told...that Phoenix could not be cosmic...We had to cut her back. So we decided to cut her down to roughly where Storm is, which is fine.” He pretty much said the same thing in reverse three years later in 1982: "We had originally envisioned that [Jean/Phoenix] had a power level that was equivalent to Storm's and that saving the universe was a one-time-only stunt; that it was Jean achieving her full potential for that one moment."

    Later, when Byrne replaced Cockrum as the artist of the book, he made a concerted effort to push for Jean to be downplayed and excluded from stories because he found her to be too powerful as Phoenix, going as far as saying, "I didn't like Phoenix since the word go. Because she instantly made the rest of the X-Men fifth wheels, you know? And she wasn't even an X-Man." That last comment stings because she certainly was an X-Man—one of the founding members and the first female X-Man, in fact, and later revealed to have been Xavier's first student—even if she had been written off the team prior to Claremont taking over. (Below is the page containing Byrne's quote.)



    To be clear, both Cockrum and Claremont conceived of Jean as the X-Men's, and perhaps Marvel's, first female cosmic superhero. Moreover, they created Phoenix not because they wanted to have her compete with or surpass Storm, but because they loved Jean as a character—"too much," in fact, as Byrne notes in the first page above—and felt that she had never been given her proper due, especially considering the vast potential of her character and abilities as indicated and displayed in the years before they partnered and took over Uncanny X-Men.

    Furthermore, Phoenix was created as being simply an extension or manifestation of Jean's abilities at their fullest potential, i.e., not as a separate entity or "force." In fact, Claremont still sees Jean and Phoenix as one and the same, or "both, as always," as he wrote in the prequel to Days of the Future Past, i.e., Uncanny X-Men #140.5, which he wrote in 2020 and was published in 2021. (Incidentally, I find it both telling and interesting that Marvel signed off on this story, considering what's been done with the Phoenix Force within the last couple of years. Hmm...) Lastly, he still considers her power second only to that of the Creator. The panel from the aforementioned issue is below.



    I belabor the points above because 1) I want to set the record straight as to why Phoenix was created, 2) make it clear that she had no peer in the X-Men when it came to her abilities, and 3) underscore how both explicit and implicit, conscious and unconscious sexism played a pivotal role in not just reducing her powers so that she wouldn't be able to defeat Thor or Silver Surfer or [insert-another-male-cosmic-superhero] but also in subjecting her to abuse, making her go mad with power, and being reduced to killing herself or, per the original ending, being psychically lobotomized.

    She's my favorite fictional character, and if people are going to make claims about her history, I want to make sure those claims are based on fact and are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    The two's journey was suppose to mirror each other. Jean to show Storm the cosmic world and Storm to explore Jean's will and inner strength on earth. At least that's how i read it. Shame it didn't happen that way. But i'm still hoping Ewing. ^_^
    While I'm not sure whether this was Claremont's initial intent, it's a beautiful idea, and one to which I wouldn't be averse. Jean and Ororo are my favorite mutants, and I consider their bond and friendship deep, unique, and iconoclastic in the best possible way. In my opinion, they are not only the most powerful but also the grand pillars of the X-Men. They are peerless and irreplaceable.

    On a side note: You know, when I peruse this thread, some of the sentiments shared here about Ororo strike me as similar to the sentiments of a lot of Jean's fans. Jean has been undermined and held back often throughout her history. Fans of hers have had to contend with male artists and writers who have exhibited both conscious and unconscious sexism in their quest to shove her to the side, kill her, and/or undercut the progressive developments she's undergone under better male and female writers, i.e., writers like Claremont, Simonson, Seagle, Bendis, Bunn, Hopeless, and Taylor. (I exclude Morrison from this list because, while I love much of what he did with her, he undermined the good he did by, once again, killing her off.)

    Moreover, like Osiris, Jean has been cut into several parts—divided and scattered—and had whole characters built from her remnants, be they Madelyne Pryor, Rachel Summers, Hope Summers—all characters whose creators admitted were supposed to be either doppelgangers of Jean or Jean herself—or the dozen or so Phoenix hosts that came after her. Not to mention, the countless characters whose developments have been inspired by her seminal and groundbreaking trajectory in comic books. In the end, I long ago transcended my anger and sorrow regarding this. I mean, if I made it a point to gripe every time creators use and have used bits and pieces or whole swathes of Jean's mythos and iconography to amplify their stories and male and female characters, I'd be a very unpleasant person. Instead, I choose to remain content and secure with the knowledge that she has been so impactful—a blueprint, really—and, ultimately, is a better and more complex character as a result of all of the attempts to subjugate her.

    In short, I empathize—quite deeply, in fact—with the frustration hardcore Storm fans feel regarding how she, too, has been undermined and underdeveloped throughout the years, especially considering Claremont's original vision for her. Moreover—and more importantly—I understand and would be remiss to ignore the fact that Jean fans have not had to contend with one significant factor with which Storm's fans have had to in their plight to have Storm given the respect and attention she deserves: racism. And for that I feel deep sorrow. Nevertheless, I say all of this to underscore that, much like these two beautiful characters, we have more in common than not, and we should strive to band together and respect both of their long and intricate histories instead of pitting them against one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    In some ways thinking about it, i think Rogue Storm was a homage to Jean in that claremont probably had to do the hardest thing, bringing storm back to earth, having her give up her own power, it was hers, because we literally saw what happened to Jean but not because she couldn't handle it, the men in the room couldn't. Thanks mercury you really added a deeper level to my love for there friendship with this. i could be dead a$$ wrong but in my headcanon it really does.
    Believe it or not, for a fleeting second, this made me choke up. (It was a fleeting second, dammit! lol!) Yes, I agree. Rogue Storm was definitely an homage to Jean. In fact, Claremont uses the same words he used to describe how Jean's power felt to her as Phoenix to describe how Ororo's powers feel to her as Rogue Storm: "Her power sings within her..." Right after, he notes, "And, at last, Ororo understands how Jean Grey felt as Phoenix. Those memories of her beloved friend give her the strength she needs to face her inner demons." What a beautiful moment.

    Ultimately, Claremont used story beats he used and planned for later use with Jean to not only further develop Ororo but to create Madelyne and Rachel. I choose to celebrate rather than begrudge that.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  13. #3778
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It could be a case of him remembering poorly, or maybe he changed a bit of what happened to not sound as much of a contrarian, or maybe it's to hide to blatant sexism that was going on with the excuses of why Jean couldn't be that strong.

    This all assuming that the original statement, that some didn't want a woman being that strong is the most truthful one too, though by being the oldest one, and the times it was said (Once Bronze Age Supes started, his powers became about a third weaker, and when DC was asked if that meant Supergirl was now stronger than him, supposedly the answer was "No, because women aren't stronger than men"), it's most likely to be the truthful one, while the later ones try to make the whole situation look less bad.
    These are good points. Like you, I think the oldest statement is "most likely to be the truthful one." (Also, I love how you express yourself. Reading you is like being on a ride.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Well, I tricked you into thinking I'm a fan and you got my username wrong twice, guess this is a mutually painful relationship .

    You fucking cutie! I'm squealing, lol. And I think you are a fan, mister, but you're still processing your conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Jokes aside, I can be real slow to become emotionally invested in stuff enough to consider myself a fan, and once I become a fan then there's the usual heightened glee if something cool happens and heightened annoyance if bad writing happens.

    To use Spidey as an example, I think ASM#1 vol 6 is bad, bad enough that I'll be dropping ASM for a few months (And even made me consider dropping comics in general for a few months again), it screwed both Spidey and MJ who are among my favorites, I just don't wanna put up with Wells' writing for a while after that, but if similar stuff happens with characters I'm interested in but don't consider myself to be a fan of, I'll be annoyed but not nearly as much.

    So yeah, I think Jean is cool, stuff I've seen about her character is interesting a̶n̶d̶ ̶I̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶U̶l̶t̶i̶m̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶A̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶2̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶g̶e̶r̶̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶l̶e̶v̶e̶l̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶k̶i̶c̶k̶e̶d̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶, and I check her out once in a while, but for me, calling myself a "fan" is a big deal, and it'd feel like I'm lying if I said I was one, and I don't like lying.
    I get all of this, but what I said above still applies. In either case, I'm glad that you're interested enough to pop in here and take part in the discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, Jean was the type whose highs were surprisingly high (I expected her to faint easily like in the 90's cartoon, which didn't happen at any point), but unfortunately had embarrassing lows too.
    I find it amazing that they made her weaker in XTAS than she was in comic books in the 1960s. Like, WTF? Thankfully, we have Beau DeMayo—a huge Jean fan with a tattoo of her on his forearm—as executive producer and head writer of the revival. He's pretty much confirmed that we're getting the opposite of what we got for Jean in the original run of the animated series, so I'm psyched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Though I think if we count all characters, the one who had it worse was Magneto, went from strong enough to deal with the X-Men alone, but after he formed the Brotherhood, he forgot how overpowered he was, and at his worse, just ran away at random despite still being able to fight, though at least the last two issues of Lee/Kirby run he remembers he was overpowered (And even knocked down most X-Men without his powers for some reason lol).
    Huh. I'll have to pay closer attention to old-school Mags during my rereadings, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Well, sometimes I find patterns that may or may not be intentional in stories, if that's considered endearing I guess.
    Oh, you're totally endearing and adorable. I've thought that for a long time. It's the way you communicate your thoughts on here and, of course, now all of these squeal-inducing memes, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I'll probably have a headache once I reach Claremont's run, that guy has a lot of patterns to the point I've seen the youtuber Comic Tropes make a drinking game out of "Claremont-isms" in a random issue and he was tipsy by the end of the video lol.
    Actually, I think it'll be right up your alley, especially early-Claremont. I look forward to reading some of your thoughts on those first issues.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

  14. #3779
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,244

    Default

    I haven’t read much since hickman’s era started. What roles has exodus had? I don’t necessarily mean power wise. But I barely hear of him when I scan the forums.
    Your favorite superhero- the one you visit these forums to talk about. Would they talk to others the way you do on this message board?

  15. #3780
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    4,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I haven’t read much since hickman’s era started. What roles has exodus had? I don’t necessarily mean power wise. But I barely hear of him when I scan the forums.
    Gillen has admitted having big plans for him. He's also confirmed that Exodus' power increases by faith from others. Outside of that, I can't remember anything else at the moment. But I'm very fickle. lol.
    Jean Grey in the words of Walt Whitman, from his masterpiece Leaves of Grass, "Song of Myself" (51 and 52):

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"

    "Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged, Missing me one place search another, I stop somewhere waiting for you."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •