Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Exodus]

Wasnt expecting to see Hope and Jean in the same panels but loved this

clearly same person! Can we bring the theory back that Hope is a resurrected version of Jean?! She is clearly another clone with bangs.

[Mercury]

I am ['enjoying it all'] too. And the fact they did a cosmic redemption storyline for her already, before they address Phoenix issues in September.

I'm happy to read that you're "'enjoying it all' too," WS. You and Phoenixx9 are truly two of my lifelines in this forum and thread.

I actually think Marvel on a number of its major characters in XMen does listen to fan opinion overall. Like people thought Storm had been sidelined and she ends up becoming the Regent of Mars. People thought Jean had been sidelined and put in the horrible green dress. Now she is out of the dress, a powerhouse again, and they are going to address whatever her connection to the Phoenix is in September.

I agree with all of this. Jean's treatment and development have improved markedly in the last year. If some fans can't or won't see that, I honestly don't know what else to say to them. I will say this, as I have many times before: Jean isn't the only A-list or otherwise character that suffered under Hickman's reign, so it's illogical to interpret her regression under him as a personal affront. Again, for all we know, her earlier decision to revert back to the Marvel Girl garb and moniker, coupled with her seemingly freewheeling attitude regarding her relationships with Scott and Logan and her choice to turn a blind eye to Hank's machinations, may be tied to what we will learn about her during Judgment Day. The fact of the matter is, we just don't know.

That being said, comic books ain't for the inflexible and faint of heart, folks!

Positivity and CONSTRUCTIVE criticism works.

I absolutely agree with this. Positivity is key, especially when communicating with writers and artists regarding the work they're doing with your favorite characters. No one likes to be condescended to and at the receiving end of short or lengthy diatribes. Not to toot my own horn—actually, yes: toot! toot!—I think it's my determination to see the silver lining in everything that has granted me some measure of success in having my voice heard—and responded to!—by comic book writers, artists, critics, and commentators alike, even those with whom I may not agree. Regarding Jean, when I see any of the aforementioned people express a take on her that I disagree with, rather than attack them for it and presume to know what their intentions are, I attempt to open up an informative dialogue with them.

Firstly, if I'm attempting to engage with someone whose work I genuinely enjoy and admire, I always lead with that, i.e., by praising their work when I can. However, if I'm not a fan, I simply start off by saying something along the lines of, You know, I read or heard when you wrote or said A and B about Jean, and I just want to point out that C and D aspects of her history contradict that. Is your take based on an aspect of her history with which I may not be familiar or something of which the reader is not yet aware? Of course, that's not an exact template I follow, but you get the gist. As a result, I've received some pretty generous and forthcoming responses from people working in the industry. The point is to engage creators and not talk at them. No one likes to be scolded or made to feel like they're inept or have secret malicious agendas.

People say they don't want Jean to become Phoenix again, but then complain when Marvel throws the Phoenix around to everyone else like a one size fits all dress. It's Jean's dress! She wore it and will always wear it better than anyone else. Stop worrying about her power levels. When she pushes her powers, that's what she is. When Carol Danvers goes into binary mode, nobody complains.

I don't think people who don't want Jean to become Phoenix again and complain when Marvel "throws [it] around" are contradicting themselves or being disingenuous. Some fans don't want her to become Phoenix again simply because, in a sense, they're traumatized by what has happened to her every time she has become Phoenix—namely, she's been killed off for years. However, they may not want the Phoenix given to every other superhero, which seems to be the pattern, because they feel it diminishes Jean's Phoenix stories and overall lore. Other fans may feel the same regarding the Phoenix being bestowed upon others, but may not want Jean becoming Phoenix because they feel it in some way distances her as a character from them. To be clear, I've interacted with fans who have expressed to me all of the above.

Frankly, I'm not fixed in my desires for Jean. In fact, I feel my preferences for her are split perfectly down the middle. That is, I can make a compelling case for why she should be revealed as being either unquestionably "one with" the Phoenix, simply its premier avatar, or both. However, I can also make a solid case for why she should be unburdened of her connection to and with it, especially when considering the reasons I mention in the paragraph above. In either case, my love for this character will not be diminished. I have and always will love her, whether she's at her weakest and most incongruent or her most powerful and congruent. It helps that I try to remain aware of the fact that, at this point, Jean is truly a mythological figure. That is to say that she will more than likely outlive us all, and her stories will continue to morph and be shaped by others with different perspectives on her. It's sort of pointless to feel sad, angry, or depressed just because you don't agree with what current writers are doing with her. Her story, as will that of other characters, will continue to change.

at this point, I only want Jean's iconography restored. I really do not need the Phoenix Force anymore. Making the Phoenix a sentient & anthropomorphize being took away everything that was fascinating about it in my eyes. So, let's just shape her pink energy into a bird aura and let's be it.

Here's a non-confrontational question for you: What if that doesn't happen? What if she never reclaims her Phoenix iconography again? How will this affect your appreciation for her as a character?

*reads X-Men Red #4*

Ugh, we're STILL doing this?

Aw. I pretty much agree with BobbysWorld's take, so my response to you will be interspersed throughout my response to him.

For what its worth, I didn't read that scene as necessarily meaning that as READERS we're supposed to think that makes him a more powerful telepath than Jean (assuming we're talking about the same scene, lol). Like I think the context here is key....Storm is talking with a bunch of galactic leaders, and making a point to remind them of who Xandra's father is and all the implications that carries for Xandra's heritage, and perhaps even her own power. Its most likely just a bit of political theater - given the point of the scene, Storm has every reason to talk up Xavier in that scene and emphasize his power and capabilities to a room full of Xandra's peers, rivals and even enemies. I don't think we need to actually assume it says anything definitive about Xavier's power vs Jean's, or anything like that.

Firstly, I completely agree with your astute observation here. Secondly, Ororo expressed uncertainty by qualifying and prefacing her statement with "perhaps." Lastly, even if Ororo means or believes that Xavier is "the most powerful telepath in the universe," she neither has the power nor knowledge to make such a determination. Ultimately, Xavier is the closest she has to a living father figure and for much of his history has been considered the most powerful telepath on Earth—I'm not sure if he's ever been classified as the most powerful telepath in the universe—so I can see this factoring into her statement, too. In either case, the reasons you listed coupled with my points are what I'm using to interpret that scene. Ultimately, Jean is an Omega Level Telepath and Xavier is not.

Incidentally, Ewing's X-Men Red #4 was so f'ing good.

[MarquisAsh]

When I read X-men red #4 today I knew this would’ve been a discussion! But the truth of the matter is Jean and Cable communicated without cerebra when he was in otherworld. It didn’t exhaust Jean either. Oracle felt the telepathic blast, but it wasn’t said if Jean felt it or not. I’m sure she did by her being the master telepath that she is. She just wasn’t exhausted.

[Exodus]

@Mercury: Jean will always be the Phoenix is some kind of medium. Maybe in another movie or tv show or cartoon or parallel universe story or PS game etc. etc. The Dark Phoenix Saga will remain one of the most iconic stories of all time. No writer can separate Jean from her history. they tried really hard but it never works out.

sooo, I think it is not really important if the current comicbooks version of her has it or not. I also expect the comicbooks to loose their quality again quite soon and I will probably go back re-reading old runs in the near future (I'm looking at you Grant Morrison Omnibus and Inferno Omnibus!!). Hence, I don't think my fandom needs Jean to restore her iconic power set and relationship to the Phoenix in the current books because she is anyhow somewhere always still The Phoenix! Her history is so vast and long, the present is not that important.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

@Mercury: Jean will always be the Phoenix is some kind of medium. Maybe in another movie or tv show or cartoon or parallel universe story or PS game etc. etc. The Dark Phoenix Saga will remain one of the most iconic stories of all time. No writer can separate Jean from her history. they tried really hard but it never works out.

sooo, I think it is not really important if the current comicbooks version of her has it or not. I also expect the comicbooks to loose their quality again quite soon and I will probably go back re-reading old runs in the near future (I'm looking at you Grant Morrison Omnibus and Inferno Omnibus!!). Hence, I don't think my fandom needs Jean to restore her iconic power set and relationship to the Phoenix in the current books because she is anyhow somewhere always still The Phoenix! Her history is so vast and long, the present is not that important.

I don't know that this is true. I think it comes down to how the movies play her, as the flicks have the widest reach. If she is like the current comics era in the films, I think that's what the public will know her as.

[Exodus]

I don't know that this is true. I think it comes down to how the movies play her, as the flicks have the widest reach. If she is like the current comics era in the films, I think that's what the public will know her as.

But why should the public forget so much about her history?! She is not a totally unknown character to the pubic (whoever this is supposed to be) to begin with. Just google "Jean Grey" and see what pictures pop up. Her wikipedia will also not be erased. Games will retell the Phoenix Saga, etc.

The new cartoon will be a revival of the 90s show where an entire season was dedicated to the Phoenix and Jean. So X-Men 97 will have this history already firmly established when it starts next year and some people will feel nostalgic and rewatch it.

[Celestialbodies]

*reads X-Men Red #4*

Ugh, we're STILL doing this?

Don’t worry I’m sure marvel’s apologist have got this covered, but Let me just say that this proves beyond any argument that Hickman’s omega data page was utter and complete garbage, all it did was downgrade Jean’s omeganess to just tp and at the end of the day it wasn’t even worth it .

No you are right on the money regarding the scene i was referring to, lol...but I wish I could be as charitable as your interpretation. It just smacks of overshadowing Jean yet again....in an issue that she is guest staring in....and vocalized by her best friend Storm no less. At first I smiled a bit at what Magneto said about Forge...but then that happened.

It rubs me extra wrong because I was just on the cusp of making a post saying if we would start seeing all of the superlatives lavished upon Xavier for decades, shown to Jean now that Jean is, per that list, an Omega Level telepath...or dare i say, would we ever see those "second only to Jean" type of descriptions...but clearly not if we're stuck in 90s-esque characterizing.



It has certainly done Jean no favors

Completely understand these sentiments.

I think I agree with Omega_DCD’s conclusion.

The point definitely was not to put doubt on Xavier’s power here with a “perhaps”. It was to reaffirm that he was the most powerful, capable of catching his daughter’s psychic scream into the abyss.

I don’t have the same frustrations, but I do understand where they are coming from. It could be another Omega Level Emma deal, but it’s just as believable as a legit change considering Xavier has held it for so long.

Agreed!

I haven’t read the issue yet, but I have no problem with Xavier being more powerful than Jean. He is a very experienced telepath with a lot of raw power. Jean being omega just means that her potential is unlimited. It doesn’t mean that she is tapping into this unlimited potential today. Her current power level is probably below Xavier’s, but her potential is to be much more powerful than him. (And in my personal headcanon her potential is to one day become the actual Phoenix force, and not just its host.)

But calling Forge an omega seems weird, especially since the data page with the omega list specifically said that he wasn’t an omega (if I remember correctly).

I have a problem with it for no other reason, than Jean is never allowed to fully leave Xavier's shadow, then stay out of it. I know my words might be twisted by other commenters, but I don't understand how someone like Jean trained by Xavier, with years of practice, her own unique skillset, would still so consistently be below Xavier in the zeitgeist of how writers use her.

A few commenter mentioned how what was said about Xavier had nothing to do with Jean. But the context of the issue challenges that, we have 3 powerful telepaths discussed or used Oracle heard Xandra death, so did Xavier. However, Jean was only present because Xavier wasn't available, statements made by Storm can only draw one conclusion that of the X-men telepaths Xavier is currently the strongest.

Which leads me to my next point:

]Jean had a noted guest appearance in the issue but...that scene had absolutely nothing to do with her and everything to do with Xavier and the connection with his daughter Xandra and the resurrection protocols.[/B] For anyone reading that and inferring shade is being thrown on Jean is reaching and not reading.

This is the best example that Jean's contributions weren't even needed, and used as a passive comparison to Xavier. The issue highlights how formidable Xavier is in an issue Jean appears, has multiple characters comment on Xavier absence and abilities, but also demonstrates that Jean didn't even need to appear here when Hope was already present. So, pulling from the context of the issue, you would naturally assume one that Xavier is stronger and two why was Jean even present?

She added nothing to the plot, her contributions could have been replicated by anyone, and based on the precedence was set by Hickman, both Jean and Quentin are Omega level, having someone with the same powerset as her, in the issue she appears, being called perhaps the strongest telepath in the universe is bound to invite comparisons. How else can you interpret how Ewing situated both telepaths in this issue, imo Xavier comes away from context as much more formidable and stronger.








I'm ready for Jean as I've repeated ad nauseum to move into that space, where these meaningless appearances in issues that don't matter, will matter and that her abilities in the context of others is respected, which historically has not always been true. She's been consistently called the second most powerful telepath on Earth, but until the early 00's she did not have the feats, nor respect among her peers for that title to mean anything. Since NXM, she's been referred as stronger than Xavier but rarely has Jean's telepathy matched his.


And please, just so we're all clear I do not need a series of feats from Jean, I know what's she's capable of and unfortunately based solely on feats. There is not a time in the history of Jean/Xavier where Jean is demonstratively stronger, so please trust me when I say I've done the research.

[WallStreeter]

Completely understand these sentiments.




Agreed!



I have a problem with it for no other reason, than Jean is never allowed to fully leave Xavier's shadow, then stay out of it. I know my words might be twisted by other commenters, but I don't understand how someone like Jean trained by Xavier, with years of practice, her own unique skillset, would still so consistently be below Xavier in the zeitgeist of how writers use her.

A few commenter mentioned how what was said about Xavier had nothing to do with Jean. But the context of the issue challenges that, we have 3 powerful telepaths discussed or used Oracle heard Xandra death, so did Xavier. However, Jean was only present because Xavier wasn't available, statements made by Storm can only draw one conclusion that of the X-men telepaths Xavier is currently the strongest.

Which leads me to my next point:



This is the best example that Jean's contributions weren't even needed, and used as a passive comparison to Xavier. The issue highlights how formidable Xavier is in an issue Jean appears, has multiple characters comment on Xavier absence and abilities, but also demonstrates that Jean didn't even need to appear here when Hope was already present. So, pulling from the context of the issue, you would naturally assume one that Xavier is stronger and two why was Jean even present?

She added nothing to the plot, her contributions could have been replicated by anyone, and based on the precedence was set by Hickman, both Jean and Quentin are Omega level, having someone with the same powerset as her, in the issue she appears, being called perhaps the strongest telepath in the universe is bound to invite comparisons. How else can you interpret how Ewing situated both telepaths in this issue, imo Xavier comes away from context as much more formidable and stronger.

Okay, if you have a problem with it what can to do about it? If someone is of the opinion Xavier is the strongest telepath, it’s not like you can put them mail. Different writers will always saying different things about different characters power levels. I’m not suggesting you agree with this, but I also don’t see the point in falling apart over this.

A character you consider to be the most powerful telepath, but someone else considers another person to be the most powerful telepath.

I mean I can’t tell you what to like or not like. You can hate it. But there’s just no point to scream every time Jean’s status or power ranking is threatened in your mind either, particularly when the Jade not the scene was about her

[Devaishwarya]

@ CelBod
Not at all. Jean was needed because Xavier was otherwise incapacitated (the man got a nose-bleed from Xandra's telepathic message)
One can say that with Hope there in panel with Jean the inferred "slight" would be more telling but...Jean showed up and did what she had to do. Why can't some people be happy for that?

The insecure need to turn every appearance into some kind of rumbles discussion is just silly.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

But why should the public forget so much about her history?! She is not a totally unknown character to the pubic (whoever this is supposed to be) to begin with. Just google "Jean Grey" and see what pictures pop up. Her wikipedia will also not be erased. Games will retell the Phoenix Saga, etc.

The new cartoon will be a revival of the 90s show where an entire season was dedicated to the Phoenix and Jean. So X-Men 97 will have this history already firmly established when it starts next year and some people will feel nostalgic and rewatch it.

I just meant it's probably not that hard to supplant the "Jean Grey is Phoenix" idea if all of Marvel is as aggro against her as the comics are.

But as I think about it I lean toward your sentiment and think you're right. This era of comics is but a blip in time and strong ideas usually stick around for a reason.

And anyway the movie people probably don't have the same ick about Jean Grey looking too strong. Lol

[Mercury]

[Regarding Ororo referring to Xavier as "perhaps the most powerful telepath in the universe"] it’s just as believable as a legit change considering Xavier has held it for so long.

I mean, Duggan had Rogue pretty much refer to Jean's telekinesis as Omega Level—she certainly wasn't using her telepathy—and Jean herself define her telekinesis as such by revealing "No object is too heavy or too big to lift nor too small to grasp," concluding, "You just have to feel it."



ScreenRant even went on a rant about how they've reclassified Jean as an Omega Level Telekinetic, lol.

Source: https://screenrant.com/xmen-jean-gre...psychic-omega/

I imagine Storm said that in relation to the environment they were in. A way to show how strong he is. Besides, Storm is not someone who defines who is the strongest telepath. Sometimes people take it too literally. Some character might say that Emma or Quentin is the most powerful character. Storm says Xavier is the greatest telepath, then Xavier always says Jean is the strongest telepath. Take easy

I completely agree with everything here.

The Marvel written bio for Jean on the Dauterman trading card already stated Jean surpassed Xavier though.

Quoted for truth. In an impulsive moment of weakness—we're ALL prone to this when championing and defending our favorite characters—I actually tweeted Ewing, who is not very active on Twitter, the aforementioned back cover, along with this comment:

"After reading X-Men Red #4, I'm simultaneously more in love with your work and infuriated! 😂 First, BRILLIANT issue. Second, as noted on the back cover of X-Men #3 (2021), Jean’s “mental powers [have] surpass[ed]” Xavier's, who is not Omega Level like she is."

We'll see if he responds, though I doubt he will.

Bloop!

I am not sure what the most powerful telepath even means. Pretty much all the gods and powerful sorcerers have telepathic powers, as well as omega mutants.

All the Eternals have telepathic powers, and most can easily kill Charles because they are more than powerful enough to defend against his psychic attacks while he can't defend against their PHYSICAL attacks.

I mean Moondragon has blasted Charles into a coma with just a psychic attack. Emma wormed her way through his mind. Mastermind once put Charles in a coma. Nate Grey once pulled his astral body off the astral plane. He has lost to the Shadow King before. Even in purely psychic matters, he is not all powerful.

Storm of course can't go into all that because she was basically trash talking to the Galactic COUNCIL. That they think that Xavier and perhaps Xandra (she just got resurrected) are the most powerful telepaths is more important than if it is really true or not. It completely would have made no sense for Storm to declare Jean the most powerful telepath, because even if it is true there is the context of the situation.

Oh, and as far as fandoms go, it's not always about your favorite character. Get over it. LOL

Very good points.

I think it's weird to say he's better than Jean since I've seen it being posted around here different situations where Xavier looked at a telepathic feat Jean did and his reaction is basically "what the fuck", and those seemed to happen with enough frequency to safely put her above him.

I don't think Ororo's statement is weird for the reasons I and others have already listed. Of course, it took me aback for a few moments, but then I realized, this is Ororo's point of view, one that she qualifies with "perhaps" and doesn't claim to be the absolute truth. It is not a narrative declaration. In either case, your statement regarding Jean's feats and Xavier's reactions instantly brought to mind this scene in which he notes that Jean transferring her psyche into Emma's body (without the help of a machine or any other augmentation) is "something Jean has never been able to do before!" I can't recall if Xavier has accomplished this feat, though he very well have:

The only point I can perhaps see is that storm did not want to bring Jean up to the Galactic Council as to remind them of Jean and then have them go after Jean (Phoenix) once more.

This would be an interesting in-story reason.

Jean had a noted guest appearance in the issue but...that scene had absolutely nothing to do with her and everything to do with Xavier and the connection with his daughter Xandra and the resurrection protocols. For anyone reading that and inferring shade is being thrown on Jean is reaching and not reading.

Exactly.

[Devaishwarya]

Exactatiously.

How many movie goers (who outnumber the Jean/XM fans) actually know the details of the DPS as written in the comics? And of those who do know, how many actually care whether she's Phoenix or not now?

Jean (as with all the X-Men) as written is only foremost and present in the minds of those who actually follow the character(s) in comics...the general movie-going public don't care either way.

[Mercury]

I love that Domino thinks of Jean first to mitigate a "five-alarm" emergency. And, of course, I love seeing her work with Sage. Jean puts out a "psychic blast" affecting all of Krakoa, "embed[ding] a psycho-psionic undertone of fear into the broadcast...most will feel scared, sick." And the Cuckoos feel both. "Jeannie the meanie supremey!" 😂 This is from X-Force #29, which dropped today.

[WallStreeter]

It’s obvious Jean was there to download Sunspot’s consciousness.

And I think we all know Storm was talking crap.

I do think some people just like to be downers. And you know what m? It’s okay if you’re a downer. Be yourself. I’m not going to be down just because you are. I personally enjoyed this issue. How somételes feels about it is up to them. No need for anyone to convince someone else on how they feel.

[StormBorn06]

Exactatiously.

How many movie goers (who outnumber the Jean/XM fans) actually know the details of the DPS as written in the comics. And of those who do know, how many actually care whether she's Phoenix or not now?

You're just dropping truth bombs here at random.