Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Mercury]

Marvel's job is to set the expectations. And boy, do they set them: I just react. Clowning on them for being literally afraid of a powerful. modern Jean, likely for shipping reasons, is the next best thing to actually getting to read about a modern Jean. So when the main thrust of Jean as a character, from Marvel, is about limiting her powers and exposure to complex stories, when they mention the character of course my general expectation is "oh, how will they further depower her?". That's the precedent that has been set and emphasized. Anytime someone wants to know what to expect next, they look at past behavior.

Jean's history consists of ebbs and flows, up and downs, as do most characters' histories, although hers include more than a few deaths, too, and tend to be sharper, steeper, and more dramatic. Frankly, that's probably one of the reasons we love her so much, whether we are conscious of it or not, and certainly one facet of her character that has made her so iconic. She's made several splashes. In any event, it's clear now that she's on a gradual upswing, and that's what I choose to focus on. Of course, if you're still angry about the fact that she isn't Phoenix, I don't know what else to tell you. She hasn't been Phoenix in going on half a decade. You either adapt or move on.

On another note, you gotta admit that it's at least a little bit humorous that I made a post about wagering on how much of Jean's focus issue for AXE will belong to Emma and Cyclops and the 2nd bit we see of it is, of course, Emma. Cmon, that's at least a little bit funny.

In hindsight, it is funny but probably means nothing. After all, she's depicted in the Quiet Council's meeting room, so I'm sure she won't be the only council member or character, for that matter, that appears in the book. But honestly, when I first read your "joke," I was like, "****, watch Kitty manifest this." lol. I believe in the law of attraction, i.e., positive thoughts produce positive results, and negative thoughts produce negative results. In any event, I don't think we have much to worry about. Hopefully, she's relegated to a panel or two. And if not, Gillen better touch on the role she played in facilitating Wyngard's abuse of Jean.

[Mercury]

In other news—now I'm reluctant to post this since I've awoken Kitty, lol—I'm in the middle of the new CerebroCast episode centered on Abigail Brand with Al Ewing as the guest, and Connor Goldsmith had the following to say to Al, which he found profound and, according to him, inspired him. For those that don't know, Al is using the Phoenix Force in his upcoming Defenders series. If I remember correctly, Galactus' mom is the host this time.

If you want to check out the exchange for yourselves, it starts around the 1 hour and 3-minute mark and lasts for about 3-4 minutes. Link: https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec...e-2c1b65c4c0e8

[Mercury]

Love this piece by Michael Brower:

Link: https://twitter.com/MikeBrower81/sta...47772746809349

[Gray Lensman]

In other news—now I'm reluctant to post this since I've awoken Kitty, lol—I'm in the middle of the new CerebroCast episode centered on Abigail Brand with Al Ewing as the guest, and Connor Goldsmith had the following to say to Al, which he found profound and, according to him, inspired him. For those that don't know, Al is using the Phoenix Force in his upcoming Defenders series. If I remember correctly, Galactus' mom is the host this time.

If you want to check out the exchange for yourselves, it starts around the 1 hour and 3-minute mark and lasts for about 3-4 minutes. Link: https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec...e-2c1b65c4c0e8

Wouldn't Galactus's mom be from the universe BEFORE this one, since that's where Galactus comes from himself? Without reading/listening further, that would suggest that the Phoenix Force itself is older than the universe.

[WallStreeter]

This is correct. Marvel is entirely in control of whether I expect something negative or positive from them.

It's that matter-of-fact and non-dramatic.



Thank you, Daedra!

And heaven forbid I got on here and said the Krakoa years of Jean stories have been good. We might keep getting the same thing.

There’s several things here. The XMen universe has never been all about Jean Grey, nor will it.

If Jean Grey were to become Phoenix would you really be happy or would you find other reasons to complain?

Because she isn’t in the green dress anymore. She’s actually kicking ass in the field and you make it seem like this is the first issues of the Hickman run where he uses uses her for telepathic communication and forgets she has other psionic powers.

They rather openly talk about her being Phoenix in the past and saving more lives than the Phoenix destroyed.

It doesn’t seem like you’re able to acknowledge any change when it happens or even what you want.

With that said, I’m not attacking you. You have the right to your feelings. It’s just if Jean becomes Phoenix this year I still don’t see that making you happy, since the other changes didn’t.

[MechaJeanix]

I love seeing the thread so alive and popping. I can't even keep up with the conversations but I am glad we have stuff to discuss. After a bit of a dry spell (compared to what we had with X-men Red and what came before that..) it is great to enjoy the books, discuss Jean's role, and have hopes for what is coming up in the near future. Some of us may love what is coming, and others may hate it. I think we are all anxious but cautious.

I love seeing Jean as a competent, capable, and powerful character (without being too overpowered - her current power levels are sufficient). I am glad Jean will get a focus issue in a main event and I hope that whatever happens they respect Jean's history with the Phoenix and her importance/connection to it. We don't need anymore retcons or denials. We need Jean to move forward and I think that is what we may be getting (afterall Jean now has saved more lives that the Phoenix destroyed - see X-men 12 but also other moments where Jean and the X-men saved lives or even a world like in the X-factor Judgement War story). Jean has continued to try to make up for DPS but maybe she finally feels free of that burden? We've had the "final" phoenix story for Jean more than once - Phoenix Endsong and Phoenix Resurrection so it will be interesting to see what is different here. What is the take? Jean is being judged for the actions of Dark Phoenix but Jean has made peace with it and moved on, maybe?

I'm very excited for that story but I'm excited for Judgement Day in general. I hope Jean gets a lot of interesting moments and gets to partake in a lot of action. Cyclops and Jean are best when they get to be heroes fighting not only for mutants but for the world (though I generally do not like it when heroes refer to themselves as such but alas..) This has been Jean's arc during the Hickman Era, she wasn't comfortable with the dirty work of X-force and she wanted to do good and she gets to do more good being an X-man than sitting on the Quiet Council. I like the X-men as an emergency response type organization (to me the X-men will always be the best as a school and an emergency response and rescue piece but that is because the Morrison era will always be the standard for how I judge X-men comics).

I'm interested in what Duggan is going to do in his "year two" but also excited for whoever gets year 3 or to see where Jean may go post Duggan's X-men run.

[MechaJeanix]

In other news—now I'm reluctant to post this since I've awoken Kitty, lol—I'm in the middle of the new CerebroCast episode centered on Abigail Brand with Al Ewing as the guest, and Connor Goldsmith had the following to say to Al, which he found profound and, according to him, inspired him. For those that don't know, Al is using the Phoenix Force in his upcoming Defenders series. If I remember correctly, Galactus' mom is the host this time.

If you want to check out the exchange for yourselves, it starts around the 1 hour and 3-minute mark and lasts for about 3-4 minutes. Link: https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec...e-2c1b65c4c0e8

Like you, I differ with some of Connor's opinions but I have to say I like his ideas about Jean/Phoenix. Separating them (or at least taking Jean out of her more important stories) was always a bad idea. But Claremont, Morrison, and even others have lessened the impact of the retcon but many do not take the time to recount that part of Jean was in the original Phoenix body (and that part was later returned to her) or that her mind was also copied by the Phoenix so it wasn't as simple as someone pretending to be another, etc. Phoenix became Jean, and Jean became the Phoenix (a merger happened). The cocoon could be interpreted as a phoenix egg going by Morrison's run and even Phoenix Resurrection but yet few make that connection (because it hasn't been stated on panel though the parallel is there). There are ways to fix Jean/Phoenix but even if that doesn't happen (and I don't expect it will) I would be happy if Jean is tied to the first phoenix host on Earth (the cavewoman). If Storm can have a divine connection and be a goddess then I don't see why Jean can't have an intrinsic connection to the Phoenix. I would love to know what made her a White Phoenix or an acknowledgement that she remembers being a White Phoenix. There is a lot that could still be explored without turning Jean into a cosmic character. Jean is best in my view as a very human character and one who fights to stay connected to her humanity despite her massive powers or connection (or possible connection) to a cosmic power source.

I would like the Jean/Phoenix connection to be re-defined from what Rosenberg did in Phoenix Resurrection. He made it an unhealthy co-dependent relationship that was based on manipulation and control. That re-defining of their relationship needs to go and replaced with something more nuanced, complex, deeper, and even spiritual.

[andreikes]

Since X-Men Red (I think) Jean and Storm don't have a cool development together

[WallStreeter]

I don’t think we have had the final Phoenix story. We do have the writers basically stop punishing her for Dark Phoenix, a 42 year old story. Finally, Jean can move on.

[Phoenixx9]

In other news—now I'm reluctant to post this since I've awoken Kitty, lol—I'm in the middle of the new CerebroCast episode centered on Abigail Brand with Al Ewing as the guest, and Connor Goldsmith had the following to say to Al, which he found profound and, according to him, inspired him. For those that don't know, Al is using the Phoenix Force in his upcoming Defenders series. If I remember correctly, Galactus' mom is the host this time.

If you want to check out the exchange for yourselves, it starts around the 1 hour and 3-minute mark and lasts for about 3-4 minutes. Link: https://redcircle.com/shows/fcf903ec...e-2c1b65c4c0e8

So....Jean is always Phoenix....?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

There’s several things here. The XMen universe has never been all about Jean Grey, nor will it.

If Jean Grey were to become Phoenix would you really be happy or would you find other reasons to complain?

Because she isn’t in the green dress anymore. She’s actually kicking ass in the field and you make it seem like this is the first issues of the Hickman run where he uses uses her for telepathic communication and forgets she has other psionic powers.

They rather openly talk about her being Phoenix in the past and saving more lives than the Phoenix destroyed.

It doesn’t seem like you’re able to acknowledge any change when it happens or even what you want.

With that said, I’m not attacking you. You have the right to your feelings. It’s just if Jean becomes Phoenix this year I still don’t see that making you happy, since the other changes didn’t.

Lol there have been like 2 issues since Jean came out of the dress and I said issue 12 was positive, but not mind-blowing or overly moving, even though I think absolving Jean Grey of the D'Bari situation is dumb.

I'm sorry I didn't properly worship the ground Jordan White and Akira Yoshida walk on for this very extended run of the most epic Jean Grey stories that have ever been published over the last two issues lol. Take this as my official notice that X-Men 12 is the best comic of all time.

And no, Jean won't be Phoenix. The narrative, which is forced, is that she never should have been. Oh, I can hardly contain how much I love that. It's so great.

[Mercury]

Wouldn't Galactus's mom be from the universe BEFORE this one, since that's where Galactus comes from himself? Without reading/listening further, that would suggest that the Phoenix Force itself is older than the universe.

According to Claremont, the Phoenix Force is "a primal force second only to that of the Creator." It's the spark that ignites and extinguishes life. Also, you're right about Galactus' mom, i.e., she is from the universe before this one. However, I'm not exactly sure how she will feature in Ewing's upcoming Defenders: Beyond, which will be a five-part miniseries.

Here's the announcement regarding Taaia being the new Phoenix: https://www.cbr.com/galactus-mother-...beyond-marvel/

If Jean Grey were to become Phoenix would you really be happy or would you find other reasons to complain?

Because she isn't in the green dress anymore. She's actually kicking ass in the field and you make it seem like this is the first issues of the Hickman run where he uses uses her for telepathic communication and forgets she has other psionic powers.

They rather openly talk about her being Phoenix in the past and saving more lives than the Phoenix destroyed.

It doesn't seem like you're able to acknowledge any change when it happens or even what you want.

With that said, I'm not attacking you. You have the right to your feelings. It's just if Jean becomes Phoenix this year I still don't see that making you happy, since the other changes didn't.

So....Jean is always Phoenix....?

By all accounts, we may be finding out for sure in October!

Lol there have been like 2 issues since Jean came out of the dress and I said issue 12 was positive, but not mind-blowing or overly moving, even though I think absolving Jean Grey of the D'Bari situation is dumb.

I'm sorry I didn't properly worship the ground Jordan White and Akira Yoshida walk on for this very extended run of the most epic Jean Grey stories that have ever been published over the last two issues lol. Take this as my official notice that X-Men 12 is the best comic of all time.

And no, Jean won't be Phoenix. The narrative, which is forced, is that she never should have been. Oh, I can hardly contain how much I love that. It's so great.

Oh, Kitty, stop. You're bouncing between extremes here. No one's asking you to worship the current stories or Jean's depiction in them. However, it would be nice if not every post by you included some snide remark about what you purportedly know they're going to do with Jean next, especially since you don't know. Frankly, it becomes grating after a while, especially since, as I've said before, this is her appreciation thread. At this point, griping about the myriad established and theorized reasons why Marvel hasn't made Jean Phoenix again should be reserved for a separate thread centered on that topic. Maybe you can start one.

Honest question: If Marvel gave you firm confirmation that Jean would never be Phoenix again, would you still follow her developments and be her fan?

In either case, your reaction to X-Men #12 was positive and, frankly, a pleasant surprise. I hope Duggan, Gillen, and whichever other writers are charged with writing Jean can continue to produce things for and develop her in ways that you enjoy.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I'm not at an extreme. Wallstreeter said I didn't celebrate the last like 2 issues enough. Now they have been celebrated lol. As for a separate Phoenix thread, no I wouldn't. And actually, Wallstreeter brought up the Phoenix to me.

Grand inquisitor, would you still be a Jean fan if they actually gave her her powers but it meant Cyclops would move back to Emma, for good? Doesn't matter either way, really; people like what they like.

[Phoenixx9]

According to Claremont, the Phoenix Force is "a primal force second only to that of the Creator." It's the spark that ignites and extinguishes life.

By all accounts, we may be finding out for sure in October!

Yes, yes it is!

I know! It makes me giddy!

[WallStreeter]

Not that it has anything to do with her, but I would still like to see Jean’s reaction upon learning Madelyne Pryor has become sorceress supreme of Limbo. Jeen would scream.