Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Jackraow21]

And I love that he named one of his guns after Jean

Not only that, but back in the 90s he had floating robot helpers on his cloaked space station, Graymalkin, and they were named for the O5 including Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

X-Men are barely a factor in Renew Your Vows, so most it wasn't mentioned.

But the universe is a variant of 616, so background stuff is most likely the same-ish.

From what I can tell, RYV follows similar plot from 616 but the major differences I could find are:

- Aunt May died at some point, possibly during clone saga.

- Kraven's Last Hunt may not have happened since Kraven shows up alive.

- One More Day obviously didn't happen, that allowed Annie to exist and Spider-Marriage to remain.

- Civil War didn't happen.

And for the X-Men related changes, what I could gather is:

- New X-Men likely didn't happen or was very different, the story has Emma being a villain (Which can mean Generation X didn't happen too, either that or she went back to being a villain at some point), and the X-Men are all dressed in the 90's costumes, and Magneto is a villain too, and Jean is alive, so changes could be even more different, however, Xavier's institute is an actual school, so maybe that part happened.

- Xavier helped prevent Civil War from happening by having this idea of super-heroes policing each other or somethin' like that, that pissed off Cyke and made him lose Jean to some Canadian dude.

Either way, by being a 616 variant, stuff like who Cyke's mother is, is likely to be the same as 616.

That's more or less what I remembered, but I didn't really read the comics so the details get even vaguer in my bad memory.

I guess he'd still be the son of a Katherine Summers. But this is too painful. So in my headcanon, her name in this AU is actually Gertrude Summers. :P

Depends, how much has Gerry Conway written X-Men? I'm only aware of an early Marvel Team-Up issue (Which's that one where Spidey kissed Jean in the end lol), if he didn't write much X-Men, and/or hasn't shown much X-Men knowledge, then it might not have been intentional.

Also I heard Conway didn't even want to use X-Men here, apparently he would have prefered to use F4 (Which would make more sense, Spidey barely interacts with X-Men).

Honestly, even if he was a big X-Men fan, he might have genuinely forgotten that Scott's mother is also named Katherine. I'm a big fan of the character and I had my moment of: "wait, isn't his mother a Katherine too?"

But, since we're talking about Scott, I wouldn't put past a writer to have done it intentionally to due their own personal hate for the character. I can see Percy, for instance, doing it on purpose. :P

Anyway, I get why editorial might have pushed Conway to use the school, though. The X-Men is a big franchise and establishing them in an AU is always interesting for the company. After all, there's always the chance to increase sales by having the X-Men fans jump in to read about it.

But in the end, it's all in the execution. Good execution can make it look like the most obvious choice (even when it isn't). Bad execution can make it feel shoehorned indeed.

Yes.

Thank you for sharing the pages. That's what I remembered (though vaguely) because that made an emotional reaction of "awn… my poor Cyke…" in my robotic heart.

It's one of the things that makes me relate to Scott. We're both contractually obliged by the universal law to love Jean Grey. :P

Thanks a lot for the info!

[Grinning Soul]

Not only that, but back in the 90s he had floating robot helpers on his cloaked space station, Graymalkin, and they were named for the O5 including Jean.

This nostalgia with the names comes from the Summer genes. :P

Cable has so much of both Scott and Jean in him... It's what makes him so effing dangerous. I love it! :)

[Lukmendes]

Not only that, but back in the 90s he had floating robot helpers on his cloaked space station, Graymalkin, and they were named for the O5 including Jean.

That's surprisingly cute of Cable, specially considering it's the 90's lol.

Honestly, even if he was a big X-Men fan, he might have genuinely forgotten that Scott's mother is also named Katherine. I'm a big fan of the character and I had my moment of: "wait, isn't his mother a Katherine too?"

But, since we're talking about Scott, I wouldn't put past a writer to have done it intentionally to due their own personal hate for the character. I can see Percy, for instance, doing it on purpose. :P

Well, Conway has his clear preference for ships, he's the guy who decided to develop MJ, and while it wasn't his idea to kill Gwen, he did so anyways, and in clone saga made Jackal to represent "salty Gwen fans" who whined about her being killed and who also didn't actually care about her character (Basically caring more about "Gwen the Spider-Girlfriend) lol.

Plus before this, he's the one who made Spidey randomly kiss Jean in Marvel Team-Up#4, Gwen was still alive back then and Spidey was dating her (And Conway was writing ASM at the time too), so it was really weird for him to randomly kiss Jean (Specially considering how long it took for him to kiss any of his girlfriends), I like to joke that Conway want to fulfill a redhead fetish, MJ wasn't available and he picked up the closest one .

So yeah, considering that Wolverine being with Jean has no importance at all to the plot, and that Shine's existence is also irrelevant, and Conway likely didn't even want to use X-Men, yeah, probably his preference to have Wolverine with Jean, but I doubt the Kate thing is supposed to be an insult towards Cyke, but who knows, his talk with MJ makes it sound he's kinda broken lol.

Anyway, I get why editorial might have pushed Conway to use the school, though. The X-Men is a big franchise and establishing them in an AU is always interesting for the company. After all, there's always the chance to increase sales by having the X-Men fans jump in to read about it.

Possibly, but stuff like that, and later on him being forced to make RYV MJ get the Venom symbiote alienated him and made him leave the book.

But in the end, it's all in the execution. Good execution can make it look like the most obvious choice (even when it isn't). Bad execution can make it feel shoehorned indeed.

It did feel a bit shoe horned, Cyke even mentions that Civil War was prevented because now super-powered people police each other, Avengers police super-heroes, while Xavier polices mutants, and Cyke suggests that Xavier suggesting Annie to go live in the Institute is partially his way of policing Annie for mutant-kind (Though Cyke mentions it's both because of that and "as a teacher looking for a potential student"), but, Annie isn't a mutant and that's made clear in the story itself, and that plot point is quickly forgotten about within the issue itself, and MJ quickly accepts Annie could study there despite what Cyke said.

Plus knowing Spidey's 616 actual story makes it weirder since, again, he's barely involved with X-Men, and the story has Xavier visiting him during his birthday party in a way that implies it's okay for him to do so and even know his identity, and then Jean calls him by his name too and Spidey doesn't mind, which's questionable when RYV's first volume made it clear Spidey didn't reveal his identity to other heroes (Basically like it was pre-2000's), it just suddenly implied X-Men are people Spidey's close enough with when in 616 they're just people he says "Hi" to once a decade, it's just weird, and the plot of that story is so weirdly structured that it suddenly ends with MJ defeating both Magneto and Emma in a single panel.

So yeah, something about the plot feels off, and maybe that's Conway half assing by that point.

Cable has so much of both Scott and Jean in him... It's what makes him so effing dangerous. I love it!

Well Scott's and Jean's genes are pretty awesome according to Sinister,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶C̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶g̶o̶d̶ ̶t̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶M̶a̶r̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶C̶a̶p̶c̶o̶m̶ ̶2̶.̶

[Grinning Soul]

Well, Conway has his clear preference for ships, he's the guy who decided to develop MJ, and while it wasn't his idea to kill Gwen, he did so anyways, and in clone saga made Jackal to represent "salty Gwen fans" who whined about her being killed and who also didn't actually care about her character (Basically caring more about "Gwen the Spider-Girlfriend) lol.

Plus before this, he's the one who made Spidey randomly kiss Jean in Marvel Team-Up#4, Gwen was still alive back then and Spidey was dating her (And Conway was writing ASM at the time too), so it was really weird for him to randomly kiss Jean (Specially considering how long it took for him to kiss any of his girlfriends), I like to joke that Conway want to fulfill a redhead fetish, MJ wasn't available and he picked up the closest one :p.

So yeah, considering that Wolverine being with Jean has no importance at all to the plot, and that Shine's existence is also irrelevant, and Conway likely didn't even want to use X-Men, yeah, probably his preference to have Wolverine with Jean, but I doubt the Kate thing is supposed to be an insult towards Cyke, but who knows, his talk with MJ makes it sound he's kinda broken lol.

It's understandable Scott would feel this way, specially if you considered that his position about the registration act was inspired by Jean's overcoming the "destructive lure of ultimate power".

She gave him hope. He believed in her. But her inability to believe in herself was what made them fell out. This is pretty tragic, actually.

I can see why it'd be hard for him to let go. Especially when you consider they're still having 24/7 contact.

As for Conway's redhead fetish… I've always thought that kiss was weird and out of the blue. But Jean has this effect on men: for some reason, they think it's okay to just randomly kiss her, so I guess it's in character for her - I say with the bitter sarcasm of someone who hates this behaviour and the depiction of it as a fun/sexy thing.

The reason I asked if the naming was intentional is because sometimes writers talk openly about hating Scott. It could have been the case. But it could have just been overlooked too.

I was just curious.

Possibly, but stuff like that, and later on him being forced to make RYV MJ get the Venom symbiote alienated him and made him leave the book.

When you care about the characters you're writing, sometimes it's hard to stomach some stuff. I understand.

It did feel a bit shoe horned, Cyke even mentions that Civil War was prevented because now super-powered people police each other, Avengers police super-heroes, while Xavier polices mutants, and Cyke suggests that Xavier suggesting Annie to go live in the Institute is partially his way of policing Annie for mutant-kind (Though Cyke mentions it's both because of that and "as a teacher looking for a potential student"), but, Annie isn't a mutant and that's made clear in the story itself, and that plot point is quickly forgotten about within the issue itself, and MJ quickly accepts Annie could study there despite what Cyke said.

All right. So it's worse than I thought. I assumed she was a mutant. But even then, she wouldn't necessarily need to go to the "mutant school".

Plus knowing Spidey's 616 actual story makes it weirder since, again, he's barely involved with X-Men, and the story has Xavier visiting him during his birthday party in a way that implies it's okay for him to do so and even know his identity, and then Jean calls him by his name too and Spidey doesn't mind, which's questionable when RYV's first volume made it clear Spidey didn't reveal his identity to other heroes (Basically like it was pre-2000's), it just suddenly implied X-Men are people Spidey's close enough with when in 616 they're just people he says "Hi" to once a decade, it's just weird, and the plot of that story is so weirdly structured that it suddenly ends with MJ defeating both Magneto and Emma in a single panel.

So yeah, something about the plot feels off, and maybe that's Conway half assing by that point.

That's one of the problems with those AUs that are very similar to the 616, right? We assume stuff is pretty much the same, but it's still an AU. The writers can always use that to justify that Spidey is closer to the X-Men in this universe than on 616… While we have to accept it rationally, it feels weird.

Well Scott's and Jean's genes are pretty awesome according to Sinister,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶C̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶g̶o̶d̶ ̶t̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶M̶a̶r̶v̶e̶l̶ ̶v̶s̶ ̶C̶a̶p̶c̶o̶m̶ ̶2̶.̶

Yummiest genes of mutantkind for sure! :)

But on a serious note, I was referring more to Nathan's personality. Amongst other things, he's a mixture of the obsessive strategic genius of his dad with the "I've got it. Follow me" boldness of his mum.

[Lukmendes]

It's understandable Scott would feel this way, specially if you considered that his position about the registration act was inspired by Jean's overcoming the "destructive lure of ultimate power".

She gave him hope. He believed in her. But her inability to believe in herself was what made them fell out. This is pretty tragic, actually.

I can see why it'd be hard for him to let go. Especially when you consider they're still having 24/7 contact.

It's honestly weird Cyke got that moment, he's easily the best developed X-Man in RYV because of that, even though he's fairly useless to the plot, maybe it's to make him info dump about Civil War being prevented more believable, but who knows.

As for Conway's redhead fetish… I've always thought that kiss was weird and out of the blue. But Jean has this effect on men: for some reason, they think it's okay to just randomly kiss her, so I guess it's in character for her - I say with the bitter sarcasm of someone who hates this behaviour and the depiction of it as a fun/sexy thing.

The thing is that the situation is very much out of character for Spidey, he can be rather passive even with his own girlfriends, and it's even weirder he randomly decided to kiss Jean, who I'm pretty sure this is the first time he met her too lol.

Sure she helped save his life, but still, weird.

70's attitude about those things is probably why this happened, that and Conway himself was like 20 years old back when he wrote that, but even then it's still out of character for Spidey, first on-screen lip kiss he has was with Gwen, and she started it, not him.

That's one of the problems with those AUs that are very similar to the 616, right? We assume stuff is pretty much the same, but it's still an AU. The writers can always use that to justify that Spidey is closer to the X-Men in this universe than on 616… While we have to accept it rationally, it feels weird.

The problem is that back in the first volume, before Regent's attack, it's made clear he didn't reveal his secret identity much, so he has that pre-2000's bitchiness about keeping his secret identity, so even within RYV's own context it's weird that at least Xavier, Jean, and Wolverine know it (Though Wolverine found out by himself back in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine at least, and even if that story didn't happen, if he randomly walks to a place Peter Parker is he'd know), maybe Jubilee knows it too.

There's also the minor detail of Cap mentioning that X-Men disappeared and he makes no comments about it back in the first volume, but that one is less noticeable.

At the very least there are years between Regent's attack and the "Spider-Family" becoming active as heroes, so it's not completely unbelievable, and considering RYV's past is different enough that Kraven's Last Hunt seemingly didn't happen (Either that or Kraven randomly resurrected, maybe Grim Hunt happened), who knows, maybe X-Men#27 happened in this universe, with the difference of Spidey accepting to briefly join the X-Men or whatever and he revealed his identity to 'em before leaving lol.

I wouldn't mind such changes as much if they were done more naturally, or more importantly, if the story was actually interesting, and this X-Men arc did neither for me.

But on a serious note, I was referring more to Nathan's personality. Amongst other things, he's a mixture of the obsessive strategic genius of his dad with the "I've got it. Follow me" boldness of his mum.

Don't know much about Cable, but if he has Jean's temper combined with his more militaristic mentality, then there could be amusing situations lol.

[Force de Phenix]

That X-treme X-Men issue is from 2002...Rogue's name wasn't revealed until 2004

She's an omega level telepath, but I get that they're just comic book characters.

[Grinning Soul]

It's honestly weird Cyke got that moment, he's easily the best developed X-Man in RYV because of that, even though he's fairly useless to the plot, maybe it's to make him info dump about Civil War being prevented more believable, but who knows.

I didn't read the entire book, so I'll take your word for it. I'm not trying to cut the conversation short, okay? I just really don't feel I can argue much because I only saw some pages of that series.

The thing is that the situation is very much out of character for Spidey, he can be rather passive even with his own girlfriends, and it's even weirder he randomly decided to kiss Jean, who I'm pretty sure this is the first time he met her too lol.

Sure she helped save his life, but still, weird.

Mmm... I'd have to check because my memory is really bad when it comes to details such as publication date (unless it's relevant to some particular story), but I think they had met before. But just once.

Anyway, I understand what you're saying about Spidey. I also thought it was a weird thing for him to do.

70's attitude about those things is probably why this happened, that and Conway himself was like 20 years old back when he wrote that, but even then it's still out of character for Spidey, first on-screen lip kiss he has was with Gwen, and she started it, not him.

I'm not one of those fans who criticises past generations work by today's perspectives. I understand they are a product of their time, even if I crige watching/reading certain stuff.

The problem is... I wish the attitude had stopped in the 70s. Oh, well... Like that famous song says: "oh, no, I've said too much..." :P

Let's leave it at that, shall we? :)

The problem is that back in the first volume, before Regent's attack, it's made clear he didn't reveal his secret identity much, so he has that pre-2000's bitchiness about keeping his secret identity, so even within RYV's own context it's weird that at least Xavier, Jean, and Wolverine know it (Though Wolverine found out by himself back in Spider-Man vs. Wolverine at least, and even if that story didn't happen, if he randomly walks to a place Peter Parker is he'd know), maybe Jubilee knows it too.

There's also the minor detail of Cap mentioning that X-Men disappeared and he makes no comments about it back in the first volume, but that one is less noticeable.

At the very least there are years between Regent's attack and the "Spider-Family" becoming active as heroes, so it's not completely unbelievable, and considering RYV's past is different enough that Kraven's Last Hunt seemingly didn't happen (Either that or Kraven randomly resurrected, maybe Grim Hunt happened), who knows, maybe X-Men#27 happened in this universe, with the difference of Spidey accepting to briefly join the X-Men or whatever and he revealed his identity to 'em before leaving lol.

I wouldn't mind such changes as much if they were done more naturally, or more importantly, if the story was actually interesting, and this X-Men arc did neither for me.

I totally get it. I'd probably feel it was shoehorned too if I had read it.

And it's one of the problems I have with AUs: they can just tell you "but it's not the 616 universe" at their convenience because, well... it's true. But, although I accept that, it feels like something is missing when they don't bother much to establish the background for the stories/interactions. That's just me, though.

It's probably why I can't seem to care much about them, even the ones I find interesting.

Don't know much about Cable, but if he has Jean's temper combined with his more militaristic mentality, then there could be amusing situations lol.

Not her temper per se. More that attitude of taking charge when needed and being natural at it.

Scott never really wanted to be a leader. He leads 'cause he's become excellent at it and he has an overdeveloped sense of duty.

And by the way, Scott has quite a temper too. It's just that we don't see it very often because he's a control freak on top of being very rational.

[Lukmendes]

Mmm... I'd have to check because my memory is really bad when it comes to details such as publication date (unless it's relevant to some particular story), but I think they had met before. But just once.

X-Men made cameos in ASM once in Annual#1, but everyone did, and they were far from Spidey.

Spidey showed up in X-Men#27, but only Beast and Iceman met him, they were trying to make him an X-Man but he refused.

Spidey actually fought the X-Men in #35 because of a silly misunderstanding, but Jean stayed behind and wasn't part of the fight.

As far as I'm aware, it's just those times they shared appearances before MTU#4, maybe they both showed up in F4 Annual#3 (Where Reed's and Sue's marriage happens), but I doubt they met there, much less interacted.

I totally get it. I'd probably feel it was shoehorned too if I had read it.

And it's one of the problems I have with AUs: they can just tell you "but it's not the 616 universe" at their convenience because, well... it's true. But, although I accept that, it feels like something is missing when they don't bother much to establish the background for the stories/interactions. That's just me, though.

It's probably why I can't seem to care much about them, even the ones I find interesting.

Yeah that's the problem with being a variant universe, it uses the same-ish story but makes random changes here and there and may pretend it was always like this, which may not look organic even if you don't know that the background wasn't like this.

MC2 was probably the best Marvel got when it comes to being a variant, but it's more so because it was smart about it, since it had the time skip that gave everyone new lives and whatever, RYV despite time skips failed to do that, it's even more noticeable when Annie is made into a teenager, though that timeskip to age her up was editorial mandated, so the lack of changes make sense 'cause it wasn't done organically.

Wonder if the name Annie is confusing any Jean fan here .

Scott never really wanted to be a leader. He leads 'cause he's become excellent at it and he has an overdeveloped sense of duty.

It's actually funny to read older comics, in X-Men#7 Xavier basically orders Cyke to be a leader even though he doesn't really want it, he even suggests Beast or Angel as other candidates, and Xavier's reply to that is basically "You're the one who has the qualities to be a leader, shut up and obey" lol.

And by the way, Scott has quite a temper too. It's just that we don't see it very often because he's a control freak on top of being very rational.

Well, he'd be a lousy leader if he let his temper take control of him too much lol.

[jwatson]

jeannie.jpg

just a late night Jeannie after a long day.

[Grinning Soul]

jeannie.jpg

just a late night Jeannie after a long day.

She looks wonderful, jwatson! Thanks for sharing. :)

Do you ever colour your art? Some of your pieces - like this one - would look stunning. :)

[jwatson]

She looks wonderful, jwatson! Thanks for sharing.

Do you ever colour your art? Some of your pieces - like this one - would look stunning.

Thanks appreciate it, and no problem. I do sometimes but very rarely. I'm not really confident in my colors digitally but i do paint traditionally from time to time.

[Grinning Soul]

X-Men made cameos in ASM once in Annual#1, but everyone did, and they were far from Spidey.

Spidey showed up in X-Men#27, but only Beast and Iceman met him, they were trying to make him an X-Man but he refused.

Spidey actually fought the X-Men in #35 because of a silly misunderstanding, but Jean stayed behind and wasn't part of the fight.

As far as I'm aware, it's just those times they shared appearances before MTU#4, maybe they both showed up in F4 Annual#3 (Where Reed's and Sue's marriage happens), but I doubt they met there, much less interacted.

Like I said: horrible memory when it comes to details, unless I make a point to look into it. And I'd never bothered to pay attention at "when did Jean meet Peter?". I just vaguely remember that Spidey had met the X-Men before. But probably just one time.

I'm hopeless! :D

Yeah that's the problem with being a variant universe, it uses the same-ish story but makes random changes here and there and may pretend it was always like this, which may not look organic even if you don't know that the background wasn't like this.

MC2 was probably the best Marvel got when it comes to being a variant, but it's more so because it was smart about it, since it had the time skip that gave everyone new lives and whatever, RYV despite time skips failed to do that, it's even more noticeable when Annie is made into a teenager, though that timeskip to age her up was editorial mandated, so the lack of changes make sense 'cause it wasn't done organically.

Age of Apocalypse is probably my favourite AU.

Wonder if the name Annie is confusing any Jean fan here :p.

It might be! :D

But that naming - I'm fairly sure - was a coincidence! :)

It's actually funny to read older comics, in X-Men#7 Xavier basically orders Cyke to be a leader even though he doesn't really want it, he even suggests Beast or Angel as other candidates, and Xavier's reply to that is basically "You're the one who has the qualities to be a leader, shut up and obey" lol.

Well… he was right. :D

I find it funny too. Teachers used to be so stern back then. Xavier would often threat them with demerits or whatever if they were late! :D

Well, he'd be a lousy leader if he let his temper take control of him too much lol.

Being fair here, it's not like Jean flies off the handle all the time, either. But there are many scenes in which you see that the temper got the better of her for a second and then she dialed back and regained her composure. When she doesn't dial back, though… take cover! :D

And Scott could be controlled while leading and less so in his real life. But no: it's all the time. Until it isn't. And then it's optic blasts and punches and screaming that can get actually disproportionate. :D

He's so messed up. So many people think he's boring, but he's actually an awesome character. Bless his heart. I love him. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks appreciate it, and no problem. I do sometimes but very rarely. I'm not really confident in my colors digitally but i do paint traditionally from time to time.

Have you tried Rebelle?

[Warlioncomics]

Not her temper per se. More that attitude of taking charge when needed and being natural at it.

Scott never really wanted to be a leader. He leads 'cause he's become excellent at it and he has an overdeveloped sense of duty.

And by the way, Scott has quite a temper too. It's just that we don't see it very often because he's a control freak on top of being very rational.

We got a great amount of angry Scott since house of M & it lasted until he died
He started to be calm again in Rosenberg’s uncanny X-men & the current era