Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[johnnysv75]

I like the retcon because it allowed her back. Besides, in my headcannon, it was still her the whole time, not merely a copy.

Oh yes! Having Jean back was a great plus!

I have always tried to come up with a way to make the retcon and the original story merge, so that Jean’s potential isn’t overlooked. And to me, BobbysWorld’s post did so beautifully. (It’s on page 2 in this thread if anyone reading this hasn’t read their post and is curious.) If they did something like that in the comics I would probably cry from pure joy.

[Mercury]

Well going by the modern era's interpretation of events, the wrinkle in this idea is that now we have to view all X-Men past events through the lens of Xavier already having the benefit of Moira's past-life knowledge by the time he ever formed the X-Men.

So as far as current events and definitions go, logistically, perceiving something like X-Men Forever through that lens means that the definition of omega that Xavier would be using there for Jean and Bobby would be the same as the general understanding of omegas from Moira's ninth life......where we know that omegas were an established classification on Krakoa given that its fall came about because of the generation of chimeras Sinister faultily engineered just from omega DNA.

So in essence, Xavier 'now' said that Jean and Bobby were omegas because he knew from before he ever met them - thanks to Moira - that they were omegas in that past life. And by extension his understanding of what that meant would be the same as what we're working off of now.

LOL, headaches, the true legacy of logistical retcons.

As always, you bring up some thought-provoking points!

The “reading” was referring to the psyche of mutants. I don’t think their psyches have to do with their power levels, but it’d be interesting if it did…

Different discussion, though.

I would have thought their psyches, to some degree, would be connected to their powers and power levels, though you do bring up a valid point.

I’m *not* criticizing or suggesting you should change anything. Really just trying to help, okay? ‘Cause you asked.

I love that you took the time to read through it and test its veracity! Also, I want everyone to contribute their knowledge and ideas to the first post! I love the questions you posed below, by the way.

. Personally, I think only Sara was Jean’s sibling. The other “uncles” and “aunts” that appear in Greys’ End don’t need to be literally a second-degree relative to Rachel. They could be brothers and sisters to Elaine or John, making them her grand-uncles and grand-aunts. Some don’t even need to be an actual Grey [EDIT: after all the point of that family reunion was to introduce Rachel to her family, not make it easier for the Shi'Ar to kill the Greys in specific :P]. If they were Rachel's third-degree relatives, wouldn’t she still call them “uncle Liam”, “uncle Roger” and “aunt Julia”?

I actually struggled with this! I was tempted to just list Sara as her sibling, but I was conflicted because I wanted to reference the murder of her entire family. Like you, I also considered listing them as second-degree relatives because Claremont was vague with the descriptions. However, in one caption, he makes it clear that Sara is Julia's older sister, and my idea sort of unraveled, lol. I'm still considering changing their designations, so your suggestion has only made me lean towards that more.

. You probably know, but her withdrawn that followed Annie’s death lasted 1-3 years, depending on the source. I understand you had to pick a number, so I’m not criticising, just adding this here in case you want to make a note somewhere (though, I don’t think it’s needed).

Yes! This was something else with which I struggled. I chose the longer period for impact and dramatic effect.

. “However, due to Jean's inability to control her vast telepathic powers” - I think it’s worth pointing out that Jean was very young at the time and Charles tried to give her time to mature before she could re-start learning how to deal with her telepathy. The reason I think it’s worth pointing out is that people have this idea that Jean is a blunt-force instrument, all raw power and few control. And we fans, particular the ones who bothered to read the 60s comics, know it is not and has never been true. Even if you don't consider the time-displaced period, while she was still a teen, Jean trained her telepathy with Charles, an already experienced and highly proficient telepath who was a demanding teacher, which is a privilege not even he had himself. [EDIT: If you consider the time-displacement, she also trained, as a teen, with Emma Frost]. Jean is absurdly skilled.

I did note that Jean was on "the cusp of pubescence," but maybe I can make that clearer. As far as people viewing Jean as a "blunt-force instrument"--"a sledgehammer"--I see that as just being Leah Williams' take--one in service of uplifting Emma Frost to some level. However, it is a take not supported by Jean's history, which sees her do everything from perform psychic surgery (see X-Men Unlimited #13; X-Men: Red #4) to end the life of MeMe with the precision necessary to avoid killing the mutants he had absorbed into himself. (see: Uncanny X-Men #292; https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/MeMe_...)_(Earth-616)). Nevertheless, I chose to highlight that she couldn't control her telepathic powers based on the depiction of this period found in X-Men Origins: Jean Grey. But, yes, she is very skilled. I see her as both scalpel and sledgehammer, depending on what a given situation calls for.

. “newly-formed covert ops team” - Genuine question because I’m not a native speaker. The original team had secret identities but is it appropriate to describe them as “covert ops”? Most of their missions were quite public, no?

This is a good point! I mean, generally speaking, their operations were covert (i.e., their hq, identities, training, and some of their operations), but you bring up a good point. I'll consider rewording it.

. “This resulted in a six-year sojourn” - I think this might be a bit confusing, Mercury. Six years could not have actually passed in the 616 because then the teens wouldn’t be teens anymore and they couldn’t have gone back in time as if nothing had happened. They most likely spend less than a year time-displaced.

Very good point, which, in fact, was one of which I had not thought. I suppose I can change it to "this resulted in a protracted [or extended] sojourn," no?

. "achieved her full potential as a psi, becoming, briefly, an entity of pure thought." - Not sure how literal this was meant to be. In that Classic X-Men story, Jean’s body is basically dead and it’s her sheer willpower and crazy psychic power that is keeping it somewhat together and moving, which I think it’s jaw-dropping impressive as well. But the point is, her body was still there and would then be placed in a cocoon. I'm not sure if mentioning becoming an entity of "pure thought" won't be confusing to new readers if they ever get to her return to the comics after the DPS death.

That quote was taken from the Dark Phoenix Saga and, since she's become a being of pure after (see Venomized #5), I figured I'd use it to be faithful to the original storyline, show what she can do, and for dramatic effect. We need to discuss this more!

I would love it if we further discussed her history! Your knowledge and perspective are invaluable.

Yes. I’d say Cerebro can detect the potential; not the ability of the mutant to realise their potential. There can be many things that could prevent a mutant to access or use the full scope of their powers. And, to be honest, I’m not sure it’d be even healthy for some of the Omegas to attempt to do it because no matter how powerful they are, mutants still have a human psyche that is most likely not equipped to deal with that much power.

This is a good point, though I would point out that Jean and Bobby have both transcended their physical forms, which is apropos, considering they were the first to be classified Omega Level Mutants, aside from Rachel, of course.

I meant the reason why the PF chose her. I think it has to do with the fact the PF recognized her as another being made of light, song and passion.

Interesting. This falls in line with my theory/headcanon that Jean has cosmic ties/roots outside of her relationship with the Phoenix Force, which is why it was drawn to and obsessed with her to begin with.

Speaking of which, here’s a song I think Jeannie should love:

I haven't had my coffee yet, so I won't list now, but I promise i will soon!

I agree, the print is stunning

It really is gorgeous. I also love the retweak of her Jim Lee design. I've retweeted this artist's tweet on my account for those who want to support him.

[Lucyinthesky]

EDITED: I tried to reply to your PM, hon, but your inbox is full.

Hi Grinning Soul, sorry, I freed space in my inbox

Yes. I’d say Cerebro can detect the potential; not the ability of the mutant to realise their potential. There can be many things that could prevent a mutant to access or use the full scope of their powers. And, to be honest, I’m not sure it’d be even healthy for some of the Omegas to attempt to do it because no matter how powerful they are, mutants still have a human psyche that is most likely not equipped to deal with that much power.

Agreed I think two good examples of an Omega´s power going wrong are Legion and Jaime Bradock, both of them showed mental instability when using their powers until they learned the skill to use them better, so yes I think this is why they need first to learn how it works and when not to push it if it´s costing them their well being.

Once I told Hizashi, my time-displaced twin brother, that I’d love if Marvel had an internal guide describing the definitions and limitations of the super powers and how they work for the characters who have them.

This would never be published to the public and it wouldn't be supposed to limit the writerÂ’s creativity, but itÂ’d be intended to provide a framework for them to help them keep powers consistent.

There are old biograhies of marvel characters that used to include their powers, habilities, limitations and weaknesses with specific examples so I think there´s a possibility they have an actualized version of it for marvel writers, I guess the problem comes when the plot doens´t convince fans the reason why a character could not help or solve the problem at the moment. So while not telling all the information, I think fans could see a version of this.

Cause I understand that concepts evolve in a story that is been told for decades, but inconsistency really bothers me. If a character wculd tk-lift a car in an issue, they shouldn't strain lifting a bike on the next, unless it’s made of a super dense metal or something. :P

Yes that´s always annoying, like I get why they can´t have all characters being OP and I enjoy a lot the stories in which they have to use their skills and creative problem solving, especially if they used to be very powerful but that´s different to those times they have a powerful character be brought down by something they should be able to deal with just to have the writers faves stand out. That really bothers me too

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Why can't we get cool stories like this!

I can see the argument that her soloing 4 Silver Surfers is a bit extra, but I do love it. As far as Jean's look and feel, I do believe that, in the grand scheme of time but before I'm dead, we will get a progressive writer who will let Jean regain what has been stripped away from her and own ALL that she is; vivacious 20-something woman, nice-girl with a very sharp and dramatic tipping point, sister/bff, overpowered psychic space-bird, all of it.

Is that time near? Ehhhhhhh lol

[johnnysv75]

Just read this wonderful article about Jean. It’s from June 2019, so before the Dark Phoenix movie and before Hickman. But still a great read!

https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...ens-jean-grey/

[Mercury]

I can see the argument that her soloing 4 Silver Surfers is a bit extra, but I do love it. As far as Jean's look and feel, I do believe that, in the grand scheme of time but before I'm dead, we will get a progressive writer who will let Jean regain what has been stripped away from her and own ALL that she is; vivacious 20-something woman, nice-girl with a very sharp and dramatic tipping point, sister/bff, overpowered psychic space-bird, all of it.

Is that time near? Ehhhhhhh lol

lmao! Kitty has hope! I can die happy.

[Mercury]

For emphasis, a scalpel:

[Mercury]

Also, as I noted before, Jean was able to shut down MeMe's mind without affecting the minds of those mutants he had absorbed:

[johnnysv75]

For emphasis, a scalpel:

Have you re-read this recently, Mercury? It was an X-Men unlimited or Annual, right? I have been meaning to re-read it ever since I saw that panel of Jean flying through hyperspace. I wonder if she had any machinery to help her or if it was Jean all by herself. If it is the latter, it is a massive feat.

[Mercury]

Have you re-read this recently, Mercury? It was an X-Men unlimited or Annual, right? I have been meaning to re-read it ever since I saw that panel of Jean flying through hyperspace. I wonder if she had any machinery to help her or if it was Jean all by herself. If it is the latter, it is a massive feat.

I reread it a few months ago. It's a good issue. And no, Jean had no assistance. It was all her!

[Gnostic]

Now take this with a grain of salt, but I heard that the plan for the Dark Phoenix Saga in X-Men: Evolution was going to end with Jean dying and Rogue permanently absorbing her powers. Rogue and Scott would then end up as a couple.

That makes sense considering the future vision shows Rogue having the ability to fly and lands right next to Scott, with Jean completely absent.

I think it would have been fitting considering that Rogue was the one to stop Jean when she went out of control in "Power Surge" by taking some of her power and she had a crush on Scott.

[Gnostic]

Jean dies and gets cucked. Why does that seem so familiar?

[WallStreeter]

I can see the argument that her soloing 4 Silver Surfers is a bit extra, but I do love it. As far as Jean's look and feel, I do believe that, in the grand scheme of time but before I'm dead, we will get a progressive writer who will let Jean regain what has been stripped away from her and own ALL that she is; vivacious 20-something woman, nice-girl with a very sharp and dramatic tipping point, sister/bff, overpowered psychic space-bird, all of it.

Is that time near? Ehhhhhhh lol

I ignore that argument. I love her soloing 4 Silver Surfers.

[Phoenixx9]

I ignore that argument. I love her soloing 4 Silver Surfers.

Yes! Me too!

Plus, it looked like Jean was ready to fight Galactus again.

[johnnysv75]

(Continued in next post. Had to make two different posts since I had too many images.)