Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Havok83]

I’m totally ok with Jean not being on the council although it would have been interesting to see her written by Gillen, mostly because his writing style endears me, with his use of many thought boxes and dialogues, which I love. The Quiet Council seems too burguiose and the X-Men more like the workers union, so I’m pro X-Men :P

Immortal was a very fun title to read. The bad part is too many references to Hope being the Phoenix, but I guess is the price I have to pay for reading this cool story with Lukas art.

I loved it bc Hope DOES have a connection to the PF and it should be acknowledged as opposed to forgotten. I wouldnt mind it being explored more especially with our Jean alive and involved

[Starchilde]

I loved it bc Hope DOES have a connection to the PF and it should be acknowledged as opposed to forgotten. I wouldnt mind it being explored more especially with our Jean alive and involved

It totally make sense story wise, I’m just annoyed cause Hope annoys me lmao specially when I remember she paraded around as White Phoenix haha

[Mercury]

Scott has been in constant conflict with the Council since the beginning of the era, he even gave up his Commander title to focus on the XMen very recently so it seems very unlikely to me.

It would take a lot of justification for Jean or him to leave their role when the team is founded based on their criteria. Which also make Council members ineligible. So again, I would find that very hypocritical, and it's not a trait of the wonderful Jean Grey.

Agreed. Makes little sense for her or Scott to join the QC given the stance they took. I want them to stand firm in their choices and not be seen as flipfloppers

It wouldn't be hypocritical or make "little sense" if Jean prompted the Q.C. to create a new seat for, or fill an empty one with, a new Q.C. member specifically elected by the citizens to represent them and was to be subsequently elected as that member. The impetus for her would be to provide oversight, speak on behalf of the citizens, and challenge anything she deems unacceptable. And that's just one way they could make her a Q.C. member again.

[Havok83]

It wouldn't be hypocritical or make "little sense" if Jean prompted the Q.C. to create a new seat for, or fill an empty one with, a new Q.C. member specifically elected by the citizens to represent them and was to be subsequently elected as that member. The impetus for her would be to provide oversight, speak on behalf of the citizens, and challenge anything she deems unacceptable. And that's just one way they could make her a Q.C. member again.

But the QC exists to represent the citizens of Krakoa nad thats why there are 12 of them which cover a wide range of values. There is no one person that can encompass and represent Krakoa as a whole and creating a seat to do that among a Council of 12 (13 if its a new seat) gives said person little power. This sounds good in theory but I dont think it would actually work. If anything they should repurpose existing seats as that is something that Nightcrawler or Storm would be perfect for. Storm has kinda transitioned to serving as a representative of Sol but Kurt could be more for the Krakoan citizens. The more I think of it, I would prefer they lean into that with Kurt bc so far he hasnt really done much or served a purpose on the QC other than be a vote.

[Mercury]

I loved it bc Hope DOES have a connection to the PF and it should be acknowledged as opposed to forgotten. I wouldnt mind it being explored more especially with our Jean alive and involved

It totally make sense story wise, I’m just annoyed cause Hope annoys me lmao specially when I remember she paraded around as White Phoenix haha

As far as I'm concerned, and the story implies, Hope's connection to the Phoenix Force was through Jean, who was White Phoenix at the time, warned others of Hope's arrival, and appeared to Scott, urging him to "let go" right before Hope heard the Phoenix Force "calling" her (see Avengers vs. X-Men #12).



Jean didn't officially "separate" herself from the Phoenix Force until Phoenix Resurrection, and, considering how Phoenix stories have been previously revealed to be deceptive, even that last separation can be questioned or retconned. Moreover, what happened during Avengers vs. X-Men was very similar to what happened during Phoenix Endsong: While Jean was fully bonded with the Phoenix Force--not just a fragment of it--part of her was compelled to take human form in order to feel human emotions (i.e., love) and sensations, even bonding with Emma; however, another part of her had transcended and was capable of taking control of those base impulses even when they seemed to overpower her (i.e., she snatched the Phoenix Force out of Emma).

Additionally, it can be theorized that the ghost of Jean was communicating with time-displaced teenage Jean from the White Hot Room as she attempted to save her from the Phoenix Force and guarantee her own separation from it, which was determined to physically resurrect and fully embody adult Jean, i.e., become human/mutant again. In the end, Jean's bond with the Phoenix Force has not been undermined but instead left a mystery; in my opinion, purposefully so. I see Jean's time spent as the White Phoenix post-New X-Men and her subsequent returns prior to her official resurrection as steps and stumbles on the way to complete apotheosis, which she never fully achieved due to her desire to return to Earth.

EDIT: What I noted above is partly why I don't fret about Jean's seeming separation from the Phoenix Force. All of the retcons have included her in one shape or form, and have never made it explicitly clear that she is no longer the ideal or permanent host of the Phoenix Force, or that it isn't, in fact, simply a manifestation of her power. Revelations like the one above and that the "first host" was a woman bearing a striking resemblance to Jean, who also found a literal cyclops to save and care for, don't make the separation of Jean and the Phoenix Force any clearer or more convincing; in fact, they do the opposite. Again, I believe this has been purposefully done.

Jean's entire arc as Phoenix, including all of her appearances as Phoenix from 1976 to 2018, centers on apotheosis and her resistance to achieving it. For all intents and purposes, it's still an unfinished arc, which I find makes it more compelling and has been intentionally left as such.

[Mercury]

But the QC exists to represent the citizens of Krakoa nad thats why there are 12 of them which cover a wide range of values. There is no one person that can encompass and represent Krakoa as a whole and creating a seat to do that among a Council of 12 (13 if its a new seat) gives said person little power. This sounds good in theory but I dont think it would actually work. If anything they should repurpose existing seats as that is something that Nightcrawler or Storm would be perfect for. Storm has kinda transitioned to serving as a representative of Sol but Kurt could be more for the Krakoan citizens. The more I think of it, I would prefer they lean into that with Kurt bc so far he hasnt really done much or served a purpose on the QC other than be a vote.

Yes, the Q.C. does exist to represent Krakoan citizens, but none of them have been elected by said citizens. Also, the impetus for a 13th member would be to both represent and be voted in by citizens, provide oversight, and transparency, acting as a whistleblower and informant to the citizens of Krakoa and Arrako if necessary.

[CapCyke]

Yes, the Q.C. does exist to represent Krakoan citizens, but none of them have been elected by said citizens. Also, the impetus for a 13th member would be to both represent and be voted in by citizens, provide oversight, and transparency, acting as a whistleblower and informant to the citizens of Krakoa and Arrako if necessary.

I don't think it fits with the direction Jean wants to take, which is to protect Mutants and Humans equally. What she understood is that the Council will always vote for an option that favors Krakoa over any other entity, even a Krakoan like in X of Swords. Creating a new role probably won't change that.

If she goes back there, it's knowing full well that she'll find herself in the same dilemma as during X of Sword, right?

[Mercury]

I don't think it fits with the direction Jean wants to take, which is to protect Mutants and Humans equally. What she understood is that the Council will always vote for an option that favors Krakoa over any other entity, even a Krakoan like in X of Swords. Creating a new role probably won't change that.

If she goes back there, it's knowing full well that she'll find herself in the same dilemma as during X of Sword, right?

To be clear, I'm not necessarily advocating for her to rejoin the Q.C. as much as stating how the writers can make a case for her doing so. Also, I wouldn't say she would "find herself in the same dilemmas as during X of Swords"--should have more leverage--but yes, there would certainly be drama and conflict, which is good for storytelling.

[Exodus]

As far as I'm concerned, and the story implies, Hope's connection to the Phoenix Force was through Jean, who was White Phoenix at the time, warned others of Hope's arrival, and appeared to Scott, urging him to "let go" right before Hope heard the Phoenix Force "calling" her (see Avengers vs. X-Men #12).



Jean didn't officially "separate" herself from the Phoenix Force until Phoenix Resurrection, and, considering how Phoenix stories have been previously revealed to be deceptive, even that last separation can be questioned or retconned. Moreover, what happened during Avengers vs. X-Men was very similar to what happened during Phoenix Endsong: While Jean was fully bonded with the Phoenix Force--not just a fragment of it--part of her was compelled to take human form in order to feel human emotions (i.e., love) and sensations, even bonding with Emma; however, another part of her had transcended and was capable of taking control of those base impulses even when they seemed to overpower her (i.e., she snatched the Phoenix Force out of Emma).

Additionally, it can be theorized that the ghost of Jean was communicating with time-displaced teenage Jean from the White Hot Room as she attempted to save her from the Phoenix Force and guarantee her own separation from it, which was determined to physically resurrect and fully embody adult Jean, i.e., become human/mutant again. In the end, Jean's bond with the Phoenix Force has not been undermined but instead left a mystery; in my opinion, purposefully so. I see Jean's time spent as the White Phoenix post-New X-Men and her subsequent returns prior to her official resurrection as steps and stumbles on the way to complete apotheosis, which she never fully achieved due to her desire to return to Earth.

EDIT: What I noted above is partly why I don't fret about Jean's seeming separation from the Phoenix Force. All of the retcons have included her in one shape or form, and have never made it explicitly clear that she is no longer the ideal or permanent host of the Phoenix Force, or that it isn't, in fact, simply a manifestation of her power. Revelations like the one above and that the "first host" was a woman bearing a striking resemblance to Jean, who also found a literal cyclops to save and care for, don't make the separation of Jean and the Phoenix Force any clearer or more convincing; in fact, they do the opposite. Again, I believe this has been purposefully done.

Jean's entire arc as Phoenix, including all of her appearances as Phoenix from 1976 to 2018, centers on apotheosis and her resistance to achieving it. For all intents and purposes, it's still an unfinished arc, which I find makes it more compelling and has been intentionally left as such.

Such a wonderful Post!!! Thank you for that.

[Soulsword323]

Same,

I really regret not seeing Jean interact in this political game that is the CC.

She's in a good place with Duggan but the place to be clearly seems to be X men immortals.

It would have been nice. Jean looks to have some kind of role in Judgement Day, so hopefully Gillen gets to do some neat things with her over there.

same! I think the Summer House with Jean, Nightcrawler, and Storm was absolutely perfect as a moral compass. I think it was absolutely wrong to regress Jean to go back to the X-Men. She is the leader, but having the X-Men in times of Krakoa is soooo absolutely pointless...sorry, but no sorry.

Jean is an embassador since Morrison's New X-Men and X-Men: Red. I get that. But she is also really good at being a politician looking for common ground between very different people.

I think she should be announced to be the official liaison with humanity for the council. So she would still be an X-Men, but also have a seat at the council.

Yeah, I loved the summer seats as well. Jean, Kurt, and Ororo really did represent the best of Xavier's dream. Wish we could have gotten to see more of those three, and Immortal could have been the perfect place for that. As much as I adore Colossus, I don't think he's going to be brining much to the table (not trying to be shady, I do love Pitor!) with him being influenced by others.

I think something like you suggested would've been cool for Jean, but unfortunately, I don't think we'll be getting that. Hate that Jean wasn't allowed to pull double duty, even if narratively I understand why she couldn't.

[Mercury]

Such a wonderful Post!!! Thank you for that.

You're welcome! And thank you for the positive feedback, love. I'm glad someone else gets where I'm coming from.

EDIT: I think it's clear that Hope embodied the White Phoenix because Jean called her to bond with her. So, in a sense, Jean aided Hope and Wanda in subduing the Phoenix Force (herself?).

[thechronic92]

Jean is where she needs to be. The council is too villainous not to fail. Someone's gonna have to clean up their mess.

[Mercury]

Jean is where she needs to be. The council is too villainous not to fail. Someone's gonna have to clean up their mess.

And I want it to be Jean...



Mwahahahahaha!

[Celestialbodies]

Seeing what's going on in Immortal, and the reaction it's gotten, I am disappointed that Jean is no longer part of the Council. I love X-Men, and Duggan's writing, but it would have been great to see Jean involved in what Gillen has planned.

Same,

I really regret not seeing Jean interact in this political game that is the CC.

She's in a good place with Duggan but the place to be clearly seems to be X men immortals.

I'm going to say something controversial, writing aside I think Red or Immortal would be the worse books for where Jean is now. I think, X-men plays to her strengths whereas she would never receive the development or focus of her peers in the books I mentioned. I definitely think both Red and Immortal will be written well, but as I said in the Immortal thread, X-men is acting as a great companion already to the new books. While balancing its own plots, moving forward the franchise's overall narrative, and expanding the cast. It most definitely has room for improvement, but I genuinely believe that book is going to surprise readers more than they think, the last two issues did a superb job setting up narratives which were referenced in Red and Immortal!

Jean is where she needs to be. The council is too villainous not to fail. Someone's gonna have to clean up their mess.

And I want it to be Jean...



Mwahahahahaha!

Nah, let someone else play babysitter!

[Writerblog]

I'm going to say something controversial, writing aside I think Red or Immortal would be the worse books for where Jean is now. I think, X-men plays to her strengths whereas she would never receive the development or focus of her peers in the books I mentioned. I definitely think both Red and Immortal will be written well, but as I said in the Immortal thread, X-men is acting as a great companion already to the new books. While balancing its own plots, moving forward the franchise's overall narrative, and expanding the cast. It most definitely has room for improvement, but I genuinely believe that book is going to surprise readers more than they think, the last two issues did a superb job setting up narratives which were referenced in Red and Immortal!

Characters getting out of their comfort zone can be really interesting and can possibly mean growth. Saying that, I don't think X-men Red concept is good for Jean at all.