Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Tank]

Thank you for this reminder. The page sandwiched between the pages you posted also underscores how much respect Jean has for others’ privacy despite claims to the contrary:

“I could have done it, Scott. So could the Professor, for that matter. But we chose not to out of respect for Psylocke’s privacy.”

I dont know why this would be something to be proud of. It just highlights what an ineffective telepath Jean can be. If you can do it, but you wont makes you as ineffective as not being able to do it in the first place. Jean is most interesting when she crosses these lines. Those times where she crosses the lines should be high lighted, not the times where she is just ho hum do nothing.

It’s not a coincidence that Jean’s most popular incarnations are Morrison or when she’s Phoenix…the times where she is a little scary, a little bit inhuman, when she is not afraid to cut loose or be controversial. It’s why teen Jean was so interesting and had her own agency. When she has a temper to balance out the compassion. It’s why we’re stuck with current carebear Jean and it’s so sad to see someone with so much more to offer reduced to a boring, one note pacifist.

I dont want saint Jean. I want a Jean that is willing to get her hands dirty not this caricature of a character on a pedestal.

[Exodus]

really? I think being a hero means not abusing your mutant powers. Reading the minds and manipulating the minds of others without permission is unethical. I like the idea of Jean being one of the few pacifist in the X-Men universe.

She will always struggle with her ideals though. She will always has to cross the line because she is working as part of a mutant militia who uses violence to achieve their goals but she still can try to follow a moral compass.

All the X-Men by now are morally grey. Let's have one who clearly stays on the good side for once...

[BobbysWorld]

I mean, I'm definitely of the opinion that might doesn't make right.....just because Jean can do things doesn't mean she has a right to do them in the name of the greater good, but I think she'd be the last person to actually profess that. Yes, there have been occasions where Jean's crossed certain lines, or come close to it, but its never because she thinks she has the right to do whatever she wants just because she can....its more that she's kinda convinced herself that its an end justifies the means kinda moment, that its not about her WANTING to do it but believing she has to.

Personally, I do actually like that Jean sometimes tows the line between ethical and unethical uses of her telepathy....like she's conscientious of it, its not something she's cavalier about and sometimes she doesn't even notice she's doing it and sometimes its something she's really troubled by or not sure where the line actually is.

Because the interesting part about it for me is when other telepaths like Emma call her out for being hypocritical re: telepathy and ethics.....the really key, unexplored part about all that for me is remembering WHO Jean took all her early cues about telepathy and ethics FROM. Aka Charles Xavier, who definitely has been hypocritical more often than not, with his telepathy.

Like, I feel like a lot of the time, the issue is that Jean very much does believe in being ethical and conscientious about how she uses her powers.....she WANTS to be that way, believes in being that way.....and when she crosses a line, a lot of the time its because she doesn't stop to question that she actually has crossed a line, because growing up, she was so often witness to the way Xavier talked a big game about power ethics but was very, VERY good at justifying all the times he was blatantly unethical. I think its impossible for Jean to not have internalized some of that, to some degree, and I'd love to see an arc about her reflecting on that and exploring the realization that the very person who instilled in her this idea that she had a responsibility to use her vast powers ethically, like....was NOT actually a great role model on that front himself, and inadvertently ended up giving her this deeper impression that it was still okay at the end of the day to just do whatever and convince yourself that as long as you made the right noises about feeling bad 'you had to do that' like, that was the same thing as accountability and thus saved you from being hypocritical.

(Really not intended as Jean bashing, I think every character as old as the 05 inevitably has at some point been written doing not awesome stuff, and Xavier's track record in regards to not actually practicing the very principles he taught - with this going alllll the way back to the original, classic X-Men IMO - like, in Jean's case at least, there's thus a fascinating explanation for some of her worse moments, which could lead to some excellent character growth for her, via stories about her outgrowing her first and oldest teacher and realizing that there can still be merit to some of the things he taught her even if he didn't end up being committed to it himself).

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I dont know why this would be something to be proud of. It just highlights what an ineffective telepath Jean can be. If you can do it, but you wont makes you as ineffective as not being able to do it in the first place. Jean is most interesting when she crosses these lines. Those times where she crosses the lines should be high lighted, not the times where she is just ho hum do nothing.

It’s not a coincidence that Jean’s most popular incarnations are Morrison or when she’s Phoenix…the times where she is a little scary, a little bit inhuman, when she is not afraid to cut loose or be controversial. It’s why teen Jean was so interesting and had her own agency. When she has a temper to balance out the compassion. It’s why we’re stuck with current carebear Jean and it’s so sad to see someone with so much more to offer reduced to a boring, one note pacifist.

I dont want saint Jean. I want a Jean that is willing to get her hands dirty not this caricature of a character on a pedestal.

No! No complexity or dimensionality for Jean!

It's better if they simply write the stories so Jean's inaction works out for the best in the end. Don't write the character in situations where there isn't an obvious rainbows-and-sunshine solution and outcome.

[Tank]

No! No complexity or dimensionality for Jean!

It's better if they simply write the stories so Jean's inaction works out for the best in the end. Don't write the character in situations where there isn't an obvious rainbows-and-sunshine solution and outcome.

I just want a Jean that’s not a saint Carebear. It’s not interesting but boring.

[Grinning Soul]

really? I think being a hero means not abusing your mutant powers. Reading the minds and manipulating the minds of others without permission is unethical. I like the idea of Jean being one of the few pacifist in the X-Men universe.

She will always struggle with her ideals though. She will always has to cross the line because she is working as part of a mutant militia who uses violence to achieve their goals but she still can try to follow a moral compass.

All the X-Men by now are morally grey. Let's have one who clearly stays on the good side for once...

Yes, please. A moral character isn't a perfect character. Therefore, they don't have to be boring. They just need to genuinely try to do the right thing. Real people don't always know what the right thing is, why should the characters?

Sometimes it's really hard to determined that because ethics and morals colide. That's the fun of writing traditional heroes. Sometimes they screw up because they didn't know better, sometimes because they were human and flawed. Again: they don't have to be perfect and boring. They can and should fail at times. They just have to genuinely try.

And they have to show remorse when they realise they did something wrong. They can't just shrug it off because people who do that don't remain committed to do the right thing.

We have too many edgy anti-heroes who always have something snarky and/or cool to say. Why can't we have a few of them who are actually trying their best to be the best person they can?

Yeah I do actually like that Jean often tows the line between ethical and unethical uses of her telepathy....like she's conscientious of it, its not something she's cavalier about and sometimes she doesn't even notice she's doing it and sometimes its something she's really troubled by or not sure where the line actually is.

The interesting part about it for me is when other telepaths like Emma call her out for being hypocritical re: telepathy and ethics.....the really key, unexplored part about all that for me is remembering WHO Jean took all her early cues about telepathy and ethics FROM. Aka Charles Xavier, who definitely has been hypocritical more often than not, with his telepathy.

Like, I feel like a lot of the time, the issue is that Jean very much does believe in being ethical and conscientious about how she uses her powers.....she WANTS to be that way, believes in being that way.....and when she crosses a line, a lot of the time its because she doesn't stop to question that she actually has crossed a line, because growing up, she was so often witness to the way Xavier talked a big game about power ethics but was very, VERY good at justifying all the times he was blatantly unethical. I think its impossible for Jean to not have internalized some of that, to some degree, and I'd love to see an arc about her reflecting on that and exploring the realization that the very person who instilled in her this idea that she had a responsibility to use her vast powers ethically, like....was NOT actually a great role model on that front himself, and inadvertently ended up giving her this deeper impression that it was still okay at the end of the day to just do whatever and convince yourself that as long as you made the right noises about feeling bad 'you had to do that' like, that was the same thing as accountability and thus saved you from being hypocritical.

(Really not intended as Jean bashing, I think every character as old as the 05 inevitably has at some point been written doing not awesome stuff, and Xavier's track record in regards to not actually practicing the very principles he taught - with this going alllll the way back to the original, classic X-Men IMO - like, in Jean's case at least, there's thus a fascinating explanation for some of her worse moments, which could lead to some excellent character growth for her, via stories about her outgrowing her first and oldest teacher and realizing that there can still be merit to some of the things he taught her even if he didn't end up being committed to it himself).

This is a really emotional day to me and the topic is... difficult.

Two things to consider: Jean is supposed to have the mind and emotional maturity of a 34-40 years old woman. Xavier is, in many ways, a father figure to her.

I didn't have an easy relationship with my father. Or a close one. But excluding genetics, some of the choices I've made in life and some of the perspectives I have of the world were heavily influenced by him.

On different levels than Xavier, he was a person who raised me to be ethical and moral, when he was very prone to give himself excuses when it wasn't convenient for him to be. Growing up seeing that didn't make me internalise that. It made me more vigilant *not* to be like that.

A third thing to consider is that men are, generally speaking, better at compartimentalising than women. I'm not saying that men are more hypocritical than women. They're not. But what I'm saying is that, generally speaking, it's easier for them to actually not see they're being hypocritical. And easier for them to stuff feeling bad about it (if/when they do realise it) in a strongbox that they'll never open so they can keep going without changing.

I mentioned Jean's mental age because as time passes we tend to understand our parents better (if we try). It's a path of admiration, disappointment, understanding and acceptance. You reach a point where you realise your parents are deeply flawed people like anybody else and yet you love them anyway because your love is not contingent on their being perfect. What makes the filial love unique is that we love the parent for their contribution to the person we are. Everything they got right and everything they got wrong are in you. And at some point you own those things: they're yours to choose what to do with them.

Jean had more than enough time to go through this process. So going back to the part of your message I've bolded, if she had internalised some of it, she also had plenty of time to learn better from the consequences of her actions and to choose to be different.

Like a father, I'm sure that's what Xavier wanted for her: to be better than him in every way, including his moral failures.

That's what I'd like to see.

[BobbysWorld]

Those are all very valid points and well worth considering. I only couched my thoughts in terms of a hypothetical future story because its not something we've actually seen tackled yet, though you're absolutely right that all of that is stuff that Jean could have thought of and worked through already, and could be plausibly stated to be internal characterization informing a lot of her choices as is, even if we haven't seen it depicted as such specifically.

[Grinning Soul]

Those are all very valid points and well worth considering. I only couched my thoughts in terms of a hypothetical future story because its not something we've actually seen tackled yet, though you're absolutely right that all of that is stuff that Jean could have thought of and worked through already, and could be plausibly stated to be internal characterization informing a lot of her choices as is, even if we haven't seen it depicted as such specifically.

I was just offering a different perspective for the sake of discussion because I think you are actually interested in that. But, unfortunately for me, this is just to scratch the itch in our nerd neurons. For better or worse, this kind of approach hasn't been the focus in most of the books/stories of the Krakoa era.

[Mercury]

I dont know why this would be something to be proud of. ...Those times where she crosses the lines should be high lighted, not the times where she is just ho hum do nothing.

Frankly, I'm not sure how respecting others' privacy and autonomy is something of which to not be proud. Implying that one person respecting another's agency is somehow something to be ashamed of is a little warped to me.

It's not a coincidence that Jean's most popular incarnations are Morrison or when she's Phoenix…the times where she is a little scary, a little bit inhuman, when she is not afraid to cut loose or be controversial. It's why teen Jean was so interesting and had her own agency. When she has a temper to balance out the compassion. It's why we're stuck with current carebear Jean and it's so sad to see someone with so much more to offer reduced to a boring, one note pacifist.

Jean has been assertive since day one (see examples below); this is not a character trait with which either Claremont or Morrison imbued her, though they did lean into it in their respective runs. Moreover, I interpret the fact that she reigns herself in now more than she has in the past as possibly indicative of lessons she's learned since her time-displacement and subsequent resurrection and concessions she's made since choosing to help build and become a citizen of Krakoa. That being said, she has also displayed moments of assertiveness and held to some of her convictions during the Krakoan era; there wouldn't be a new X-Men team otherwise.

Ultimately, I enjoy Jean's ebbs and flows; I find they are what makes her a unique and fascinating character. She isn't stuck playing the role of a snarky, irreverent bitch, which can be fun to read, but, to me, indicates a lack of substance and character and gets tiresome after a while. She's empathic but also willful depending on what the situation calls for. In the end, she's learned to choose her battles.

[Mercury]

I mean, I'm definitely of the opinion that might doesn't make right.....just because Jean can do things doesn't mean she has a right to do them in the name of the greater good, but I think she'd be the last person to actually profess that. Yes, there have been occasions where Jean's crossed certain lines, or come close to it, but its never because she thinks she has the right to do whatever she wants just because she can....its more that she's kinda convinced herself that its an end justifies the means kinda moment, that its not about her WANTING to do it but believing she has to.

I can somewhat agree with this. I mean, Jean has killed and incapacitated people with her telepathy and telekinesis more than once (see examples below), but not out of sheer anger or to show off. I wouldn't even say she did so because she's "convinced herself" or "believe[es] she has to"—this makes her sound like she's in some form of denial about her flaws, which I completely disagree with—as much as knows with certainty that there are no alternatives.

Personally, I do actually like that Jean sometimes tows the line between ethical and unethical uses of her telepathy....like she's conscientious of it, its not something she's cavalier about and sometimes she doesn't even notice she's doing it and sometimes its something she's really troubled by or not sure where the line actually is.

I enjoy when she "tows the line," too, though as I mentioned above, I think she knows when and why she's doing it.

Because the interesting part about it for me is when other telepaths like Emma call her out for being hypocritical re: telepathy and ethics.....the really key, unexplored part about all that for me is remembering WHO Jean took all her early cues about telepathy and ethics FROM. Aka Charles Xavier, who definitely has been hypocritical more often than not, with his telepathy.

I may be wrong, but I think the only telepath that has "call[ed] her out for being hypocritical re: telepathy and ethics" is Emma, which, as far as I'm concerned, is indicative of her self-projection more than anything else. I mean, we're talking about someone who has gaslit and abused adolescents, not to mention what she's done to adults and her bias against Jean.

As for Xavier, she long ago called him out on his deceptive methods.



I'll continue my response to your post in my next reply because I want to accompany it with pictures.

[Mercury]

Like, I feel like a lot of the time, the issue is that Jean very much does believe in being ethical and conscientious about how she uses her powers.....she WANTS to be that way, believes in being that way.....and when she crosses a line, a lot of the time its because she doesn't stop to question that she actually has crossed a line, because growing up, she was so often witness to the way Xavier talked a big game about power ethics but was very, VERY good at justifying all the times he was blatantly unethical. I think its impossible for Jean to not have internalized some of that, to some degree, and I'd love to see an arc about her reflecting on that and exploring the realization that the very person who instilled in her this idea that she had a responsibility to use her vast powers ethically, like....was NOT actually a great role model on that front himself, and inadvertently ended up giving her this deeper impression that it was still okay at the end of the day to just do whatever and convince yourself that as long as you made the right noises about feeling bad 'you had to do that' like, that was the same thing as accountability and thus saved you from being hypocritical.

To underscore the point I made in my previous reply, I want to highlight the fact that Jean has questioned Xavier's methods multiple times. Case in point: The time she hesitated to forcefully enter Magneto and Logan’s minds right before and after Magneto ripped the adamantium from Logan's skeleton. Ironically enough, Xavier’s insistence that Jean follow his lead prevented her from stopping Logan’s attack on Magneto, which is what cost him his adamantium.



To further underscore my point, here's an instance in which Bobby wanted to tell Jean something—many, as do I, assert that he wanted to come out of the closet—and expected that she had or would read his mind. She hadn't and wouldn't. Her respect for others' privacy is made even more clear in the page I shared previously, in which she makes it clear to Scott that she could have entered Psylocke's mind but didn't out of respect for her privacy. Mind you, Psylocke had both tried seducing Scott and attacked Jean when she questioned her motives, and yet, Jean still didn't invade her mind.

(Really not intended as Jean bashing, I think every character as old as the 05 inevitably has at some point been written doing not awesome stuff, and Xavier's track record in regards to not actually practicing the very principles he taught - with this going alllll the way back to the original, classic X-Men IMO - like, in Jean's case at least, there's thus a fascinating explanation for some of her worse moments, which could lead to some excellent character growth for her, via stories about her outgrowing her first and oldest teacher and realizing that there can still be merit to some of the things he taught her even if he didn't end up being committed to it himself).

In the end, I think some people infer that Jean tends to use her telepathy intrusively because of how she behaved during her time-displacement and what she did to Emma during New X-Men. Firstly, during her time displacement, she was not only overwhelmed by suddenly having her telepathy unlocked—an ability she didn't know she had due to Xavier implanting psychic barriers in her mind and erasing it from her memory—but also emotionally compromised due to learning of her and her friends' fates. She wasn't equipped or trained enough to control her telepathy and was a mere teenager desperate to prevent what she saw of the future from happening. This led to instances like her changing Warren's mind about staying and unintentionally hearing others' thoughts, including Bobby's, who felt like he was "going crazy" because of being gay. Ultimately, she was immature and traumatized.

As for Emma, I think it's clear that Jean ransacked her mind not just because of jealousy but because she wanted to confirm whether Emma was a threat to the entire team. You have to remember, despite Emma's turnabout, Jean was probably still wary of her, considering their history and Emma's sordid past. Moreover, Jean was aware that Scott was in a psychologically compromised state (he revealed this to her issues before) and wanted to make sure Emma hadn't manipulated him into doing something he didn't want to do. This is underscored by the fact that Jean scolded Emma for manipulating bigots' minds before begrudgingly mindwiping them so that they wouldn't remember what Emma had done.



In the end, Jean has always been assertive and, at times, hot-headed. And, like every other character, she has also made questionable choices. However, for the most part, she has remained aware of her actions and held certain standards—standards I reckon are above Xavier's—when it comes to violating others' rights and privacy.

[Mercury]

These little moments made my week.

[Mercury]

For the “Jott” fans, from X-Men ‘92 XCII #1. This little moment was too cute (I covered the word balloon with a misshapen heart, lol):

[andreikes]

It's so cool to see Jean's development in a frame every 10 comics s2

[Mercury]

It's so cool to see Jean's development in a frame every 10 comics s2

Duggan has done a great job writing Jean and dedicated an entire issue to her. Some of the other team members, like Rogue and Laura, have less appearances than her. Keep in mind: Some of these characters will leave the book in two months; Jean will remain indefinitely.

It’s all about the long game.