Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Grinning Soul]

Years ago, I've made an online friend who says he's been in love with her since he was 10, when he first read the X-Men comics. He really means it (EDITED: it's the kind of innocent feeling of a child's heart that still lingers -- it's not the way an adult falls in love). It's adorable. :)

For us, she's a fictional character, but Jean is a real person for the other characters in the 616 universe. And I'm sure not everyone likes the kind of person she is. But I'd say most people do. On top of being drop-dead gorgeous, there's something so endearing about her and so many things that are so admirable... Seriously, she should be really hard not to love/fall-in-love-with or both. :)

[Exodus]

in the 616, she is probably just a drop-dead gorgeous person and all those superficial idiotic men like Warren, Scott, and Logan only fall for her because of her looks.

or even worse: she subconsciously manilpulates everybody around her telepathically to fall for her.

Jean's desirability totally demystified. ;-)

[Grinning Soul]

in the 616, she is probably just a drop-dead gorgeous person and all those superficial idiotic men like Warren, Scott, and Logan only fall for her because of her looks. Jean's desirability totally demystified. ;-)

or even worse: she subconsciously manilpulates everybody around her telepathically to fall for her.

Genuine question with no sassy tone implied: how serious are you?

[Exodus]

Genuine question with no sassy tone implied: how serious are you?

Well, I just do not think that the emotional responses of straight cis alpha-male assholes like Logan, Xavier, and Cyclops are saying a lot about what makes Jean lovable....let's just say, that Jean's interest in men is also a little bit questionable...Come on, Jean, falling for these guys? Seriously?

I think her friendships with Nightcrawler, Synch, Iceman, and Storm are more telling how gorgeous her personality probably is.

[Grinning Soul]

Well, I just do not think that the emotional responses of straight cis alpha-male assholes like Logan, Xavier, and Cyclops are saying a lot about what makes Jean lovable....let's just say, that Jean's interest in men is also a little bit questionable...Come on, Jean, falling for these guys? Seriously?

I think her friendships with Nightcrawler, Synch, Iceman, and Storm are more telling how gorgeous her personality probably is.

Thanks for your answer.

[Exodus]

just imagine you are friends with Jean, and you have to go through a dinner date where she brings Cyclops and you have to sit next to him. SOOOO BORING! THE TRAGEDY OF HETEROSEXUALITY FULL ON! ;-)

[Grinning Soul]

just imagine you are friends with Jean, and you have to go through a dinner date where she brings Cyclops and you have to sit next to them. SOOOO BORING! THE TRAGEDY OF HETEROSEXUALITY FULL ON! ;-)

I'm sorry, Exodus. I don't think we can have a conversation about this topic. It's what happens when someone is coming from a totally different point of view. There must be some point of agreement before one can attempt to start a discussion and, in this case, it doesn't seem we have it.

Most - if not all of - my friends are heterosexual men and they are much more complex than society gives them credit for and it bothers me a lot that it is the case. But I cannot prove that to you or to anyone. So...

[Exodus]

I'm sorry, Exodus. I don't think we can have a conversation about this topic. It's what happens when someone is coming from a totally different point of view. There must be some point of agreement before one can attempt to start a discussion and, in this case, it doesn't seem we have it.

Most - if not all of - my friends are heterosexual men and they are much more complex than society gives them credit for and it bothers me a lot that it is the case. But I cannot prove that to you or to anyone. So...

good for you. Wise words. I think we definitely should not continue to speak about it if my funny comment (about fictional characters) is already enough to irritate you (e.g. spark your fragility). #notallstraightcismen

You should probably also think about getting some queer and trans* friends in your life. Cheers!

[Grinning Soul]

good for you. Wise words. I think we definitely should not continue to speak about it if my funny comment (about fictional characters) is already enough to irritate you (e.g. spark your fragility). #notallstraightcismen

You should probably also think about getting some queer and trans* friends in your life. Cheers!

You got me wrong. I'm not irritated or triggered or anything like that. It bothers me that society reduce straight men to silly stereotypes because it bothers me when any human being receives this treatment.

But I've learnt that sometimes you can't have a conversation about certain topics with a particular person, depending on their point of view. The hashtag you wrote is evidence to me that whatever I said about heterosexual men would be met with that kind of reaction. I don't think I was wrong. But maybe I was. Would you be actually open to talk about my perception of them?

As for more queer and trans friends, sure, I'd love to have them. Why would you assume I'm the one who isn't interested? It takes two, right?

[Exodus]

Let’s maybe just move on and return to the comicbooks.

For me are Cyclops and Wolverine not the most sensitive and caring straight cis men I can imagine. Or are depicted as men who are particularly self-aware and self-reflexive about their privileges.

I like Jean for her friendships, not for her basic taste in aggressive alpha men.

[Grinning Soul]

Let’s maybe just move on and return to the comicbooks.

For me are Cyclops and Wolverine not the most sensitive and caring straight cis men I can imagine. Or are depicted as men who are particularly self-aware and self-reflexive about their privileges.

I like Jean for her friendships, not for her basic taste in aggressive alpha men.

I hadn't mentioned any character in particular. I was trying to lighten up the mood and talk about something I thought we could agree on, since we're in this thread: Jean is easy to love.

That's all.

[BobbysWorld]

Re: Jean and separating the Phoenix from her and moving it into another sphere of the Marvel Universe entirely....

To be clear, I absolutely think there's more to Jean than the Phoenix, that she's a great character even without it. She doesn't NEED it to be compelling. You don't need to include the Phoenix in her stories in order to have something to do with her character or something to say about her.

But I'm also always gonna think the constant question of 'should the Phoenix be kept out of Jean's stories and vice versa and them distanced as much as possible' tends to be a moot point no matter what answer you side with personally. Its more of an idle thought experiment than a question with any real practicality, IMO. Because here's the simple truth: Jean and the Phoenix are ALWAYS going to be linked in a lot of peoples' minds, no matter WHAT you do. That's....literally just what happens when two characters or concepts are centered in an iconic story like the Dark Phoenix Saga.....they're always going to be associated with each other in a lot of minds no matter WHAT you do with them together or separately after that story, because....it was iconic? That's literally the nature of iconic stories, they're memorable. They're iconic because they're lasting, they leave an impression, make their mark. Whether or not you ever put those two in a story together ever again after that, even if you come up with a million explanations in canon for why they are never, ever, ever, getting BACK together.....

The point is, they WERE intertwined for one of the most iconic, best known, fondly remembered, and formative comic book stories of all time.

And that's not a genie you can ever put back in the bottle.

Frankly, I don't understand why they even try so hard? It is what it is. It doesn't mean that every story after that needs to star both Jean and the Phoenix, that you can never separate them conceptually and spin them off into other directions....it just means whatever you do with them either separately or together, you need to at least accept that no matter WHAT you do, for some people, they will always be linked in their minds. And its the latter part that Marvel just....doesn't want to accept, and so they keep trying to create a definitive story or take that conclusively severs any connection Jean has ever had with the Phoenix once and for all, and its like....that's dumb. I'm sorry, but that's dumb. The more you fixate on that, the more you uphold The Ultimate Jeanie-and-the-Phoenix Break Up Song as the holy grail of Jean stories......

The less chance you'll ever be successful because the hilarious irony is that all the focus you put on insisting that Jean and the Phoenix are totally not connected any more....THAT'S STILL PUTTING FOCUS ON JEAN AND THE PHOENIX, AS A CONNECTED CONCEPT!!

Its the 'don't think about pink elephants two seconds after somebody brings up pink elephants' thing. The very attempt at distancing Jean from the Phoenix in peoples' minds is what keeps them framed in the same mental snapshot for a bunch of the very people Marvel tries so hard to get to agree with them that Jean and the Phoenix have nothing to do with each other any more and never will ever again.

And that's dumb. Did I mention that's dumb? I forget.

It doesn't help, of course, that because of how much bizarre emphasis Marvel's put on trying to un-iconify Jean and the Phoenix's connection over the years (yes un-iconify is totally a word that I did not just make up, it literally means to make something iconic turn non-iconic, duh, its totally in the dictionary, you can trust me I'm a doctor) like, they've made creating the Ultimate Phoenix-Sans-Jean story into something so mythologized, they've expressed such a WANT for the Phoenix story that just makes readers once and for all go 'Jean Who?' - that its become like, some kind of weird status marker or achievement trophy that writers go after in the hopes of being immortalized as the writer who made the, idk, Anti-Dark Phoenix Saga? LOL.

Tbh, personally I think that also stems from and feeds into that thing where certain writers seem more focused on leaving their mark on the Marvel landscape than they are on just....writing good stories. Being known or remembered as the writer who changed the Marvel Universe forever with a particular story feels like more of a priority for some writers than just writing stories that readers like or enjoy, regardless of how long they carry the memory of it with them afterwards.

And that's the problem I have with the whole "Jean Grey - To Be Phoenix, or Not to Be Phoenix" question. I think it keeps focus on what kind of stories they're telling with both Jean and the Phoenix and how removed or not they are from each other in said stories....at the expense of just focusing on just telling good stories with them, regardless of what they're doing with the other half of that pair elsewhere at the same time. With the added irony/frustration that the fixation on untangling the two is all largely irrelevant anyway, because you can't just....MAKE readers forget the lasting impression and associations a famously iconic story left them with initially.

One of my biggest wishes for Marvel editors and writers is just....a greater understanding or acceptance that no single writer or editor can control how much of a mark they leave on the Marvel landscape, or ensure that a particular story or concept they wrote or created will remain the definitive take no matter what writers after them do. Like, that's not up to you, lol. You can't control that sort of thing. Its anathema to partaking in a work-for-hire shared universe where you didn't create 90% of the characters you're playing with and you can't order everyone that follows you to keep their grubby mitts off your toys after you bow out and are officially done playing with them. If you don't want anyone messing with your stuff or coming along twenty years later and undermining a story you wrote or changing one of your characters or concepts in a way you don't like.....like, that's what creator-owned work is for. But its just not how shared universes work. Writers don't necessarily have to LIKE that aspect of writing in a shared universe, but they kiiiiiiinda should be able to accept it, because it is what it is....and I just don't think a lot of modern writers DO actually accept that inherent aspect of writing in a shared universe.

And thus we end up with weird stories about the Phoenix and Thor and a tournament of champions where all the most popular or famous Marvel characters duke it out for the honor of being the Phoenix's new favored host....and its just like omg stop, are you writing these stories because you actually want to write these STORIES, or because you want to write big, universe/character-altering changes that will forever stand out in Marvel history as 'Writer X Was Here and He Did That,' y'know?

And frankly, this isn't meant as a call-out post for Jason Aaron, lol, because he's far from the only writer I think is guilty of this sorta thing. I've famously ranted a time or two in Bobby-centered threads about how Bendis didn't want to write Bobby's coming out story so much as he just wanted to be remembered as the writer who wrote Bobby coming out (if he'd actually wanted to write that STORY, he had forty plus issues before the six page coming out narrative that he could have used to explore Bobby's character challenging and changing his self-expectations over the course of like, an actual character arc as opposed to a headline-grabbing Event that didn't even take up a quarter of the issue that's now 'iconic' for being the issue where Bobby came out).

But like, yeah. That's my take on the eternally bandied about question of whether or not Jean and the Phoenix should be upheld as an intertwined duo or kept separate and out of each other's stories: the answer literally doesn't matter because the simple reality is for most readers, the association between Jean and the Phoenix is locked in and nothing anyone does is going to ERASE the lasting impressions left by a famously iconic story and its frankly kinda weird to be so obsessed with trying. If Marvel doesn't want to write Jean as the Phoenix for the foreseeable future for whatever reason? Okay! Just....don't write Jean as the Phoenix. Its that simple. What readers feel or think about Jean and the Phoenix's connection outside of stories where they're not connected should like....not be the most prominent aspect of stories where they're not written as being particularly connected. That's just....bizarrely counter-intuitive and always will be.

[Portsian]

As a gay man I have always loved Jean, from early days, and i am 54 now so been with her a long time. But I dont need to dumb down fiction str8 men fir how they are currently written. Xmen are about differences, and one of those is differences is being heterosexual. Im not a massive fan of Logan, or Scott, but not cosvof their sexuality.

I dont really follow Avengers, and hate the Phoenix crap going on overthere. Couple of questions as 1000000 bc humans did not exist has Aaron explained any of that with his Pre historic xmen? Also, is Echo primarily known as Echo or Phoenix, as her code name? If still mostly called Echo then Jean should claim the Phoenix namr back, even without the Force.

[Devaishwarya]

I don't think Marvel is trying to "un-iconify" Jean and her past connection to the Phoenix. They can't. But it is in the "distant" past.

Aaron is simply telling a story, his story, using a cosmic "character" from X-lore that's not a major factor of said lore currently thanks to Jean rejecting it some time ago.

[Psych1c]

Jean does have a questionable taste for men. She's not perfect after all, but Cyclops is not as boring as people make him to be nor is it related to his sexuality, it's just his bland personality and the way he's lived his life.

The Phoenix Force has been used as an accessory and I don't really think Jean needs it. They have a great story, they were one or bonded for life, however, I'm exhausted of people reducing Jean to a weak lady that needs a cosmic bird to be strong. This Phoenix off-on switch has hurt Jean and made people question her abilities and power, not to mention everybody and their mother being able to host it. Something that was intended to be a unique relationship or a natural extension of her powers became a cheap plot device and the best thing for Jean is to stay far away from it, at least while it's been treated like a boost that anyone can wield.

This inconsistency only allows people to make Jean seem like she can't lift a paperbag without the Force boosting her up.