Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Lucky99]

Is it true? Did Mastermind have sex with Jean Grey?

[I'm a Fish]

Is it true? Did Mastermind have sex with Jean Grey?

He probably made her think they did, since he made her think he was her husband.

[Lucky99]

He probably made her think they did, since he made her think he was her husband.

Ok..cool...her having sex with someone so insidious and twisted would torture her. So it being a illusion can just be whisked away.

[WallStreeter]

Adult Jean has never had her own book or even limited series
. To truly and properly dealt with stuff her last they need to at least give her own limited series. It could me too her finishing her PhD, saving the Shi’ar from some cosmic threat and perhaps her sister and niece and nephew get resurrected. Maybe she gets the codename Phoenix back.

Or maybe she gets her own Disney + series. The MCU and Disney plus have made the most unlikely characters superstars. That might be the place to develop her.

[I'm a Fish]

Ok..cool...her having sex with someone so insidious and twisted would torture her. So it being a illusion can just be whisked away.

I mean, he did make her actually hurt her friends...

[Omega_DCD]

Excellent post and points, Omega_DCD, which include points I’ve made before, both in this thread and elsewhere.

It cannot be overstated how insidious and impactful Jason Wyngarde, Emma Frost, and the Hellfire Club’s perpetrations against Jean were. Over the years, I’ve grown quietly critical of the Dark Phoenix Saga, which I still love and consider amongst my favorite stories, because it doesn’t sufficiently highlight or make this clear enough. In my youth, I took for granted that it was obvious that Jean’s descent and unraveling were due to abuse, which, to me, at least, made her suicide all the more tragic and impactful. However, I’ve come to realize that this isn’t always obvious to readers, mostly due to some of Claremont’s contradictory framing and word choices. Even still, he and Byrne pepper the story with key dialogue and imagery that strongly imply, if not out and out state, that she is reeling from abuse and trauma.

As I wrote in a recent thread on Twitter, the following panels punch me in the gut every time. Claremont’s incisive dialogue, coupled with the layers of defeat and trauma Byrne managed to imbue Jean with here, alerts readers that this isn't simply a woman slowly succumbing to her dark “innermost desires” but reeling from physical and psychological manipulation and abuse. Moreover, aside from it echoing Emma Frost’s garb, Jean being forced and reduced to wearing sexualized lingerie—something that happened while she was under mind control—seems to hammer the point home. The pain and struggle on her face, highlighted by her closed eyes or downcast gaze, sweat-laden furrowed brows, and unkempt hair, coupled with her inner dialogue, point to something much more tragic than an insatiable hunger for power.



Jean’s subsequent transformation into Dark Phoenix is similar to the disassociation and rage that are symptomatic of a post-traumatic stress episode, wherein, in this particular instance, what's been done to her—i.e., she was mind controlled, psychically and perhaps even physically penetrated without her consent (i.e., she was figuratively and literally raped), and her base and amorphous “innermost desires” were contorted into something vile and sadistic—overwhelms her, and she seeks to attack and escape—a fight and flight response—for survival. All one needs to do to get a better understanding of what Jean, as a character, must have been feeling is picture how one would feel if they were mind controlled and had their own shadow desires for power, control, and unbridled sexuality—all universal and somewhat instinctual yearnings—contorted, imposed upon oneself, and used to harm one’s loved ones.



Lastly, it is telling and makes Jean’s struggle doubly impactful that only another woman, Ororo—her sister in spirit and best friend—sees past her rage and recognizes her “pain [and] great sadness.” Even still, although Jean refers to Ororo as “closer to me than my own sister,” she can’t help but lash out at her. There is none of the beady-eyed-villain-twirling-their-pointed-and-curled-mustache in Dark Phoenix, but rather, an all-consuming pain and sadness, and yes, hunger—perhaps for vengeance and a euphoric numbing—that threatens existence. Ultimately, Jean’s “lust” is borne from her anger at and desperation to escape the pain of being so grotesquely violated. She didn’t simply have her innermost desires exposed and granted; she had her agency and autonomy stripped from her and was turned into someone and made to do things she is not and would not do.



Whether readers are conscious or unconscious of the themes of abuse and trauma that run through the Dark Phoenix Saga, I think these themes, coupled with Jean’s self-sacrifice in the end, are what make this story so enduring and shattering. Mind you, this take doesn’t detract from the fact that, as Lord Anton noted, “absolute power corrupts absolutely”; however, it does apply Anton’s declaration equally, if not more so, to the true deviants and perpetrators of the story—Jason Wyngarde, Emma Frost, and the rest of the Hellfire Club—which is what should be done. Ultimately, it was their hunger for power that corrupted them and, in turn, prompted them to violate, corrupt, and shatter a young woman in the prime of her life and power.

Thank you Mercury, and I absolutely love the deep dives you make into this and other Jean related issues and runs. Part of why so many other adaptations or versions of the DPS ring so hollow is because they skip the emotional leg work and various conflicts Jean goes through...instead reduxing the story to a generic "Woman is too powerful for her own good, can't handle it, goes crazy".

I think the reason a lot of people forget about the Hellfire Club being a key catalyst for Dark Phoenix is because the beginning and the end of a story are what people remember the easiest.

And what you have at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga is Jean saying it's a cycle; from Jean to Phoenix to Dark Phoenix, which makes the Hellfire Clubs assault sound inconsequential to her predicament.

That is fair...for me, as for "going Dark" being an inevitability, I can certainly see the rationality behind it. "Jean" in UXM 137 certainly felt that way...but I think she was blindsided and engulfed in what the HFC stoked and unleashed, and was defensively, desperately fighting from the backfoot to hang on to her sanity and "good" nature for dear life.

HOWEVER...I can completely accept "Dark Phoenix" as an inevitability in the sense that it is a "necessary evil" in order to gain perspective and achieve the "enlightened" state that is the White Phoenix.

[Mercury]

I think the reason a lot of people forget about the Hellfire Club being a key catalyst for Dark Phoenix is because the beginning and the end of a story are what people remember the easiest.

And what you have at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga is Jean saying it's a cycle; from Jean to Phoenix to Dark Phoenix, which makes the Hellfire Clubs assault sound inconsequential to her predicament.

You have a point. However, as Omega_DCD stated in their reply to you, Jean was both "blindsided [by] and engulfed in" the aftereffects and consequences of Wyngarde and the Hellfire Club's perpetrations. On the one hand, she felt violated by her perpetrators, while on the other hand, she was horrified by what she had been manipulated—i.e., mind-controlled—into doing: Being intimate with a man, be it figuratively or literally so, that she otherwise abhorred, and humiliating and harming her found and chosen family. Profound hopelessness, resorting to suicidal ideation, and attempting and actually achieving suicide are not uncommon for those blighted by abuse and trauma.

Is it true? Did Mastermind have sex with Jean Grey?

It's hard to say. In Claremont's Classic X-Men #24 backstory "Vacation," he fleshes out (no pun intended) an exchange between Jean and a handsome young man only hinted at in one panel in Uncanny X-Men #125. In the backstory, Jean is still reeling from the seeming death of the X-Men and takes a vacation to Kirinos, one of the Greek islands of the Cyclades. Upon her arrival, she is robbed by a group of adolescent "ruffians," before she meets Nikos, a handsome young native of the island who turns out to be Jason Wyngarde in disguise. Nikos offers to help Jean, after which Claremont writes a few highly suggestive moments between the two.

In one scene, after Jean has accepted Nikos' offer to stay at his apartment, she wakes up naked in bed after he brings her breakfast. Later, they are depicted scuba diving, after which they share a passionate kiss, to which Jean subsequently responds with regret. Afterward, he convinces her to "laugh with me, love with me, LIVE," before taking her to a dance club. They are still in their bathing suits during that last exchange, and in the next scene, they are in the club, fancily and festively dressed. We are not shown what happens in the interim, though that is not to say they had sex; however, it is possible. Granted, this is Wyngarde portraying a different character from the one he portrays during the Dark Phoenix Saga, but his sexual advances, if not perpetrations, are clearly shown in both.

As for whether their fake marriage during the Hellfire Club ceremony was psychically or physically consummated, we may never know for sure. We do know that Wyngarde kissed her multiple times during her "time lapses," and made her believe that they had been lovers for some time. I highly doubt that Claremont intended, or that it can even be argued, that an aspect of her "innermost desires" was to be with Wyngarde as himself or as a man she didn't know and hadn't ever met before. This is why Claremont's dialogue and descriptions in key moments are troublesome to me: He has Jean state that Wyngarde "catered [his] illusions to fit [her] fantasies," but much of what Wyngarde conjures up is foreign to Jean and has nothing to do with her thoughts and experiences—hell, she isn't even imagining herself in an era she recognizes or knows much about—but instead reflects his world, aesthetics, and ideology.

Ok..cool...her having sex with someone so insidious and twisted would torture her. So it being a illusion can just be whisked away.

As far as I am concerned, and to be respectful to the world of superhuman abilities and fantastical experiences, I don't think it matters whether he has sex with her physically or via telepathic illusions. I think, in either case, such experiences would feel both violating and traumatizing, especially to a telepath as powerful as Jean. For all intents and purposes, she lived and, during pointed moments, struggled to rail against the dark fantasies into which Wyngarde thrust her. For example, in Uncanny X-Men #126, Wyngarde pulls her into a telepathic illusion that has her riding a horse–Claremont makes clear that "she's never ridden a horse in her life"—and he tricks her into believing they are hunting deer. In the caption, Claremont writes, "For the second time in as many days, Phoenix' world goes suddenly, decidedly mad," and he writes Jean responding to the illusion by exclaiming, "Oh, no—it's happened again!" Both the description and dialogue here clue readers into the fact that Jean is both shocked and frightened by these "time lapses," which she certainly doesn't recognize as fantasies that bring to life her "innermost desires."

Later, after they've run down one of the deer, Wyngarde assures and encourages Jean, "We are fortunate indeed, Milady. The beast still lives. As the first to run it to the ground, to you goes the honor of administering the coup de grace." Just as she takes the blade from Wyngarde's hand to kill "the beast," he states, "It was a masterstroke of yours...suggesting we hunt a man playing the role of [a] stag, rather than the animal itself." Jean's response is one of shock—"A...man?!"—again, making it clear, as does the art, that she does not recognize the scenario as reflective of her desires and is not okay with what she was about to do. In fact, so disturbed is she by the illusion, that she is pulled out of it, though Wyngarde may have been the one to end it since she was resistant to his grooming. Afterward, she thinks to herself, "I wanted...to kill him! I was about to...what's happening to me?! What am I becoming?!?" It can be argued that, in reality, Wyngarde is making Jean think, feel, and believe that she wanted to kill a man, which is all the more disturbing and distressing.

Adult Jean has never had her own book or even limited series
. To truly and properly dealt with stuff her last they need to at least give her own limited series. It could me too her finishing her PhD, saving the Shi’ar from some cosmic threat and perhaps her sister and niece and nephew get resurrected. Maybe she gets the codename Phoenix back.

Or maybe she gets her own Disney + series. The MCU and Disney plus have made the most unlikely characters superstars. That might be the place to develop her.

She did have X-Men: Red, but I can see why you and others wouldn't consider that "her own book or limited series." It didn't go deep enough, though I do love X-Men: Red Annual #1. In either case, it recently dawned on me that part of why some Jean fans, including, at times, myself, are both galvanized and frustrated by Jean's developments, or, at times, lack thereof, is a nagging sense of anticipation for and expectancy of her being on the verge of something—a great realization, a cathartic release, a satisfying resolution—regarding her various tragedies, traumas, and moments of transcendence. The repeated stripping of her power and iconography (I hear you, Kitty), coupled with ignoring key aspects of her history—e.g., being cloned, the murder of her family, her time displacement, etc.—not only compounds fans' frustration but also galvanizes them more and fuels their anticipation, expectancy, and enthusiasm for both a resolution and, generally speaking, for Jean herself.

One thing that keeps me hopeful and optimistic about her future development is the work centered on her from 2012 through 2018, spanning her time displacement, official return, and role as a leader in X-Men: Red. Who would've or could've expected such developments for Jean, especially after she had been so unceremoniously killed near the end of Grant Morrison's run, over a decade before? Nevertheless, Brian Michael Bendis' love and reverence for Jean shined through, brilliantly so, and spread like wildfire amongst other writers, such as Bunn, Hopeless, Taylor, et al. That period in her history will remain one of my favorites, if not my favorite, and I credit it with solidifying what I thought would be a brief return to comics last year, which is when I first devoured this arc, and, more specifically and importantly, my love for Jean. As I've said many times before in this thread: She is back, loved, and the whole world of possibilities comic books offer is open to her.

Have hope!

Thank you Mercury, and I absolutely love the deep dives you make into this and other Jean related issues and runs. Part of why so many other adaptations or versions of the DPS ring so hollow is because they skip the emotional leg work and various conflicts Jean goes through...instead reduxing the story to a generic "Woman is too powerful for her own good, can't handle it, goes crazy".

I love your deep dives as well. Also, I agree: The main reason why adaptations of the Dark Phoenix Saga have been so unsuccessful is that they skirt or simply ignore that arcs themes—i.e., abuse, trauma, and, ultimately, self-sacrifice, which is how and why the Phoenix first emerged and later perished—in favor of the woman-goes-mad-with power trope. It's incredibly frustrating.

[Mercury]

HOWEVER...I can completely accept "Dark Phoenix" as an inevitability in the sense that it is a "necessary evil" in order to gain perspective and achieve the "enlightened" state that is the White Phoenix.

I very much like this take. Part of my headcanon includes viewing Dark Phoenix as not just a character, or identity, borne from trauma and disassociation but also from one aspect of the Phoenix's raison d'etre: To burn away the corrupt and obsolete. As Phoenix, Jean had become like a god, and when confronted by the darker side of humanity, i.e., Jason Wyngarde and the Hellfire Club, she sought to purge it of its darkness, even if it meant destroying it.

[WallStreeter]

If people can’t think of anything better to talk about than. 42 year old story concerning Jean Grey, the character is hopelessly screwed and she just sucks.

Honestly, the Phoenix has become a hotbed mess of retcons and needs to be destroyed. Let it threaten the Shi’ar and let Jean destroy it this time. And maybe take the codename Phoenix for herself.

[Exodus]

If people can’t think of anything better to talk about than. 42 year old story concerning Jean Grey, the character is hopelessly screwed and she just sucks.

Honestly, the Phoenix has become a hotbed mess of retcons and needs to be destroyed. Let it threaten the Shi’ar and let Jean destroy it this time. And maybe take the codename Phoenix for herself.

that is what we call a "timeless" story if even 42 years after its release people are still fascinated by it. Shall we stop engaging with classic material altogether. The relevancy of a character is not determined by the present...otherwise nobody would love Mariah Carey anymore. ;-)

[Mercury]

Jesus Christ, can we please stop with the absolute judgment calls regarding Jean and her fans? It's toxic, insidious, and serves no purpose other than to make fans of Jean feel bad. Some of us love this character for very personal reasons. This love extends to all iterations of her as an iconic character, whether the iterations under discussion are deemed by some to be great and others lackluster. I have no problem with people sharing their negative opinions on Jean except when doing so becomes akin to a drone that is derisive and irrespective of the opinions of those of us who can find something to love in all of her iterations. As I've pointed out before, this is an appreciation thread, after all.

That being said, no topic regarding Jean, be it a story from forty-plus years ago or her current state in comics, should be restricted in this thread. We should all feel comfortable enough here to both appreciate her as a character and respectfully discuss points of interest, variance, and agreement. The following isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but if you find that all you can do is contribute negative and derisive opinions in this or, for that matter, any other character's appreciation thread, you should ask yourself what is your motivation. What is the point of repeatedly offering nothing but deprecating remarks in a thread that has been created with the intent of appreciating a character, their history, and their impact?

[jwatson]

Is it true? Did Mastermind have sex with Jean Grey?

No mastermind never had sex with Jean Grey because she was at the bottom of Jamacia Bay.

[Devaishwarya]

Point. If one agrees with the canonic retcon. (I do).

While it doesn't make the manipulations by the HFC any less villainous...there is consolation to e had that Jean herself only "experienced" those acts and memories as secondary impressions once the PF bonded with her at the end of her fight with Maddie in Inferno.

[Celestialbodies]

She did have X-Men: Red, but I can see why you and others wouldn't consider that "her own book or limited series." It didn't go deep enough, though I do love X-Men: Red Annual #1. In either case, it recently dawned on me that part of why some Jean fans, including, at times, myself, are both galvanized and frustrated by Jean's developments, or, at times, lack thereof, is a nagging sense of anticipation for and expectancy of her being on the verge of something—a great realization, a cathartic release, a satisfying resolution—regarding her various tragedies, traumas, and moments of transcendence. The repeated stripping of her power and iconography (I hear you, Kitty), coupled with ignoring key aspects of her history—e.g., being cloned, the murder of her family, her time displacement, etc.—not only compounds fans' frustration but also galvanizes them more and fuels their anticipation, expectancy, and enthusiasm for both a resolution and, generally speaking, for Jean herself.

One thing that keeps me hopeful and optimistic about her future development is the work centered on her from 2012 through 2018, spanning her time displacement, official return, and role as a leader in X-Men: Red. Who would've or could've expected such developments for Jean, especially after she had been so unceremoniously killed near the end of Grant Morrison's run, over a decade before? Nevertheless, Brian Michael Bendis' love and reverence for Jean shined through, brilliantly so, and spread like wildfire amongst other writers, such as Bunn, Hopeless, Taylor, et al. That period in her history will remain one of my favorites, if not my favorite, and I credit it with solidifying what I thought would be a brief return to comics last year, which is when I first devoured this arc, and, more specifically and importantly, my love for Jean. As I've said many times before in this thread: She is back, loved, and the whole world of possibilities comic books offer is open to her.

Have hope!

This is the one right here!

If people can’t think of anything better to talk about than. 42 year old story concerning Jean Grey, the character is hopelessly screwed and she just sucks.

Honestly, the Phoenix has become a hotbed mess of retcons and needs to be destroyed. Let it threaten the Shi’ar and let Jean destroy it this time. And maybe take the codename Phoenix for herself.

Wallstreeter please don't take this as an attack but I've been surprised with your shift in many aspects of Jean. I'm not saying I disagree, its just I remember how supportive you were of all things Jean Grey and the PF and I guess I'm wondering if you don't mind sharing. What changed for you?

[jwatson]

The easiest way to solve the whole Jean Grey/Phoenix dilemna is to just use the hatchery to revive Phoenix. If maddie is considered her own person because of her own experiences then surely the duplicate Jean should have acquired enough memories to be it's own person as the real jean was in status. So just have Jean Grey, Phoenix, and Maddie running around.