Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Devaishwarya]

The retcon explicitly states that the Phoenix Force “stole a portion of [Jean’s] psyche,” so the experiences and subsequent memories of the Phoenix clone were also Jean’s. As I’ve pondered the negative aspects of the retcon—to be clear, I also consider there to be positive outcomes, such as deepening and adding even more complexity to Jean’s mythos—I’ve come to realize that there is something to be said about it, i.e., the retcon, regarding ignoring and blaming the victim.

Jean has often been blamed for and depicted as feeling guilty due to Dark Phoenix’s actions, as was most recently done in X-Men #4 (2021). Most people seem to find this acceptable. However, there seems to be a disconnect when it comes to depicting or allowing Jean to feel and express pain and sorrow regarding being gaslit and abused. The same is the case regarding her feelings about Madelyne’s experiences, even though it was the fragment of her psyche taken by the Phoenix Force, albeit later abused and contorted by Sinister and Sym, that animated and gave Madelyne life.

I find this troublesome, but also understand why it is the case. Mind you, I’m not saying this applies to either of you, but it is something to which I’ve noticed others are prone.

"steals" meaning it belongs to someone else and a "portion of" meaning not the entire 100% of Jean's Psyche.

And then..."It duplicates me" as in makes a copy of an original.

By these pages shown, It may have believed it was Jean but it obviously wasn't...not in it's entirety.

[Mercury]

But why, just if i am to say i see her as phoenix and guilty. The circumstances don't matter, she still killed billions of people. Are we going to pull in every one of their spirits, every last person who lost a life or lost something or was cost something by her actions and let them sit jean down and tell them what she did to them, how she made them feel, how many psychoti episodes they went on and are still going on because of her actions she feels guilty about.

Frankly, this would be impossible to do because they're all, well, dead. EDIT: You did specify it would be the victims' spirits, which I overlooked, but which also leads to me to the following observation: I doubt they had any psychotic episodes, considering the fact that they died, quite literally, in a flash.

If that is the case why was wanda hounded for her actions when she tried to make amends whereas if we are honest Jean has not tried to make amends or actually do anything but feel guilty for the actions of the phoenix while at the same time declaring it wasnt her and her guilt only goes so far.

For starters, she lost years of her life and had her entire family murdered as a result of Dark Phoenix's/her actions. And yet, there still hasn't been a deep dive into the ramifications of her being gaslit and abused... Again, a case of ignore and blame the victim. That being said, when she became the White Phoenix of the Crown, I would have had her resurrect and reconstruct the D'Bari people and planet. Nevertheless, despite some fans taking issue with Jean’s use of the words "love and kindness"—a negative reaction I find rather strange—I thought Duggan did a good job of having her reconcile her guilt with her sense of duty and yearning for redemption in X-Men #4:

[Mercury]

She could be checking in on the people to see how her actions affected them.

Again, they're dead.

She could be running around gathering up the phoenix to make sure it doesn't happen again. Instead she living her best life, watched echo take the phoenix and move and has been rejecting her responsibility all this time by basically letting the phoenix run around and doing whatever it wants.

I'm just saying what the situation looks like to me if i'm suppose to believe Jean is Phoenix is Maddie is One. It just doesn't work. Jean would have to be a horrible person and pretty much one that shucks responsibility to be running around turning down her own life because...

Then again, as my headcanon is prone to making me view her relationship with the Phoenix Force—i.e., I view it very much as Claremont does: They are inseparable—she could be both repressing it and keeping it in check by not manifesting it and, instead, lending it out to others.

[Grinning Soul]

This just really confused me. The personal aspect is because you literally inserted yourself in your 1st point by saying you never had a problem with wanda which wasn't relevant to the direct discussion so thats how it was made personal.

Well, you had written this on a previous post: "I am big on not having things both ways. Jean can't have the experience the accolades etc of phoenix or maddie and not get any of the blame. If she is the Phoenix, if she is Maddie, she is guilty, i have never seen her as either."

I thought we were talking about our personal views on the matter. I just replied about my view on (1).

Then I asked a conceptual question in (2).

Sorry it that ended up being confusing. But I'm not taking any of that personally. I'm not upset or anything.

Now the confusing part i don't understand your question. IF Jean is Phoenix why would she be hosting herself. I don't get this. It seems you agree Phoenix is it's own thing and at one point it inhabitated a duplicate body of Jean, the same one it must be reanimating whenever it decides to bring Jean back especially since current Jean has a whole different husk. So i'm saying if Jean IS phoenix then yes she is being irresponsbile letting a piece of herself run around causing havok, it's not a question of it she wants to or not if she's calling herself a hero it's the right thing to do. I mean after all she was willing to kill herself to do just that before, right?

Look... I have my headcanon and it explains the whole mess. But it's a headcanon. I cannot prove anything.

That being said, I also have to work with the multiple possibilities and explanations for the mess. I can't pretend they don't exist.

But it's too hard to have this discussion if everything is going to be tangled in one messy woll ball. If you actually want to talk about it, let's do it. But can we do it on PMs? I've already said too much in this thread and I really don't want to risk having other posters jumping in and derailing the conversation even more.

[Mercury]

"steals" meaning it belongs to someone else

Yes, to Jean.

and a "portion of" meaning not the entire 100% of Jean's Psyche.

Or, it is 100% a portion of Jean's psyche.

And then..."It duplicates me" as in makes a copy of an original. By these pages shown, It may have believed it was Jean but it obviously wasn't...not in it's entirety.

I can agree with this interpretation. Then again, I'm also prone to subscribing to this panel written by Claremont in 2020/2021 and which is considered canon. (Jean is deliciously complicated and contradictory, hence my signature quotes.)

[Rev9]

1. I never hounded Wanda and never agreed to the treatment she got.
2. How does one make amends for killing a stellar system? She killed herself to make sure she would never do it again. What else can one do?

Is it not in the Phoenix's power to recreate the stellar system? Whether re-creating absolves her of this is a different matter ,but an attempt should have been an option to the writers.

[Devaishwarya]

Enh...I don't take much stock in Claremont's decades later "intentions".
As much as some are willing to ignore Louise's retcon, I reserve the right to ignore Chris'. Considering that a year later the Phoenix is now happily bonded to another host who isn't Jean. (and I'm not saying that that turn of events isn't "meh!" but...it is also cannon.) The best rationale I can come up with is that in the ever changing world of comics, JeanisPhoenixisJean may have been so at one point but now that is clearly not the case.

Jean feeling guilty for everything the Phoenix did while impersonating her is so melodramatic and far-fetched to me, considering where I stand on the retcon scale.

That's like me blaming myself for my mechanic taking my car and using it to rob a bank then kill a few pedestrians while trying to get away from the police. It's my car yes, licensed to me, but that's as far as my involvement goes. I personally didn't rob the bank or kill those people, nor did I give the mechanic permission to do so.

That said...I understand and to an extent can appreciate Claremont's and others' comic-book flare for the operatic and overblown.

[Rev9]

Enh...I don't take much stock in Claremont's decades later "intentions".
As much as some are willing to ignore Louise's retcon, I reserve the right to ignore Chris'. Considering that a year later the Phoenix is now happily bonded to another host who isn't Jean. (and I'm not saying that that turn of events isn't "meh!" but...it is also cannon.)

Jean feeling guilty for everything the Phoenix did while impersonating her is so melodramatic and far-fetched to me, considering where I stand on the retcon scale.

That's like me blaming myself for my mechanic taking my car and using it to rob a bank then kill a few pedestrians while trying to get away from the police. It's my car yes, licensed to me, but that's as far as my involvement goes. I personally didn't rob the bank or kill those people, nor did I give the mechanic permission to do so.

That said...I understand and to an extent can appreciate Claremont's and other's comic-book flare for the operatic and overblown.

The mythos should be developed to delve into the Phoenix's history and why or how it bonds to hosts,an entity of that power can wear any 'sleeve' it crafts for itself. Which makes me wonder with Maddie already cloned why the writers chose for the PF to make another duplicate.

[Grinning Soul]

Is it not in the Phoenix's power to recreate the stellar system?

The answer to this is: it probably depends on the writer. Honestly, we can argue back and forth on this one, comparing the powers of the MU's cosmic beings and such, and we'll never get to a serious answer here.

Whether re-creating absolves her of this is a different matter ,but an attempt should have been an option to the writers.

Same thing I said before: what makes you think - based on canon - that Jean believes she is the best, most responsible option, to be Phoenix again?

Why no one ever asks what should Warren be doing to be absolved of his genocide? It's a matter of scale? Possessed or not, he's genocide was deliberate, unlike Jean's.

You can't unring that bell and they both paid for their actions already.

So, please, spare me of this silliness.

[Devaishwarya]

The mythos should be developed to delve into the Phoenix's history and why or how it bonds to hosts,an entity of that power can wear any 'sleeve' it crafts for itself. Which makes me wonder with Maddie already cloned why the writers chose for the PF to make another duplicate.

The Phoenix didn't make another duplicate, per se.
The only duplicate it made was Jean. Once Jean rejected it it sought out the nearest "compatible" host which happened to be Sinister's Jean clone and awakened her.

I think it's stated somewhere (not reading the Aaron million year nonsense) perhaps in Claremont's X-Men? that the PF as a Comic entity sought out a host or hosts to experience what it's like to "be human". It could be as simple a reason as that.

Aaron has already revisioned the Phoenix Mythos so...

[Rev9]

The answer to this is: it probably depends on the writer. Honestly, we can argue back and forth on this one, comparing the powers of the MU's cosmic beings and such, and we'll never get to a serious answer here.



Same thing I said before: what makes you think - based on canon - that Jean believes she is the best, most responsible option, to be Phoenix again?

Why no one ever asks what should Warren be doing to be absolved of his genocide? It's a matter of scale? Possessed or not, he's genocide was deliberate, unlike Jean's.

You can't unring that bell and they both paid for their actions already.

So, please, spare me of this silliness.

It's a an option, forget I asked.

[Grinning Soul]

It's a an option, forget I asked.

Thank you.

[Mercury]

Palette cleanser! According to a quick exchange I had with illustrator Jonah Lobe, Jean will be featured in Marvel and Insight Editions’ upcoming book Marvel Anatomy: A Scientific Study of the Superhuman.

Jonah shared the following with me:

A couple things. I show the power center of her brain, and the semi-physical barriers placed there by Prof X. I also show the ghost nutrinos that help her psionic abilities, and I show a graph of her power, her power with cerebro, and her power with the Phoenix, overlayed!

ICON. 🔥

[Mercury]

More from Jonah:

I did my best! I had a huge crush on her as a kid, and she's one Marvel's most powerful heroes ever, so she gets one of the closest-up images, and she's looking right at the camera - she looks INTENSE.

I can’t f*cking wait!

[Exodus]

More from Jonah:



I can’t f*cking wait!

thank you for sharing! that sounds absolutely fascinating! Can't f*cking wait!