Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Grinning Soul]

I'd rather see the Phoenix manifest /craft its own corporeal form for once , instead of hitching rides on hosts.

What do you call a corporeal form? 'Cause it does have a form: the raptor (it was shown flying around without a host). You mean like a human body shape?

[Gray Lensman]

What do you call a corporeal form? 'Cause it does have a form: the raptor (it was shown flying around without a host). You mean like a human body shape?

I think he means the power to be a long term character without needing to possess someone.

[Rev9]

What do you call a corporeal form? 'Cause it does have a form: the raptor (it was shown flying around without a host). You mean like a human body shape?

Yes, a human body form

[Zelena]

Yes, a human body form

Everytime I saw the Phoenix without an host, it had Jean Grey’s appearance…



Or it looked like a bird…

[Rev9]

Everytime I saw the Phoenix without an host, it had Jean Grey’s appearance…



Or it looked like a bird…

True, but it should craft a form other than a previous host to retain a distinct ,unique identity especially since Jean parted with it.

[Grinning Soul]

True, but it should craft a form other than a previous host to retain a distinct ,unique identity especially since Jean parted with it.

I'd prefer the PF to be a cosmic force which has a consciousness, but not an anthropomorphic one.

And since that's not the case - the PF is, in my opinion, painfully human - I wouldn't mind if it decided to set on a form. As long as it does *not* look like Jean or steals any of her experiences, I couldn't care less.

[BobbysWorld]

Honestly, it might be pedantic of me, but part of why I've always been resistant to associating the Phoenix with characters other than Jean, even though I'm also fine focusing on Jean without it, is because the entire POINT of a phoenix, icon/imagery-wise, is that there's only ever ONE phoenix at a time. Its a singular being in pretty much every variation of every phoenix myth ever created. IMO its just....totally missing the point of crafting a comic book mythos around a phoenix, specifically, if you're going to end up associating it with a dozen different characters, sometimes as many as five at a time.

Like, its totally knee-jerk, I freely admit it, lol, but a part of me will always be like 'hmm, that feels off' when the Phoenix is associated with anyone but Jean, as long as Jean's around in some capacity, because like.....sorry not sorry, if you're going to make a big deal about a Phoenix, there should be only one phoenix and/or host otherwise what you've really got is just a bunch of firebirds.

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[Grinning Soul]

Honestly, it might be pedantic of me, but part of why I've always been resistant to associating the Phoenix with characters other than Jean, even though I'm also fine focusing on Jean without it, is because the entire POINT of a phoenix, icon/imagery-wise, is that there's only ever ONE phoenix at a time. Its a singular being in pretty much every variation of every phoenix myth ever created. IMO its just....totally missing the point of crafting a comic book mythos around a phoenix, specifically, if you're going to end up associating it with a dozen different characters, sometimes as many as five at a time.

Like, its totally knee-jerk, I freely admit it, lol, but a part of me will always be like 'hmm, that feels off' when the Phoenix is associated with anyone but Jean, as long as Jean's around in some capacity, because like.....sorry not sorry, if you're going to make a big deal about a Phoenix, there should be only one phoenix and/or host otherwise what you've really got is just a bunch of firebirds.

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Deep down I agree with you (I even know how I'd "fix" this Phoenix mess). But I've made my peace with Marvel's insistence in destroying it. I've been ready for Phoenix Corps for years. :D

Silly jokes do help, my friend.

[Rev9]

I'd prefer the PF to be a cosmic force which has a consciousness, but not an anthropomorphic one.

And since that's not the case - the PF is, in my opinion, painfully human - I wouldn't mind if it decided to set on a form. As long as it does *not* look like Jean or steals any of her experiences, I couldn't care less.

I don't necessarily think an anthropomorphic form would curtail its powers.I just want it to interact with humans if it chooses to through this human form, but still maintain its cosmic form as its default setting that it can also revert to if it chooses. A new non-Jean form would suit it imo as it would really feel autonomous from a reader perspective.

[Grinning Soul]

I don't necessarily think an anthropomorphic form would curtail its powers.I just want it to interact with humans if it chooses to through this human form, but still maintain it's cosmic form as its default setting that it can also revert to if it chooses. A new non-Jean form would suit it imo as it would really feel autonomous from a reader perspective.

I wasn't thinking about powers or anything like that. It could be another cosmic character with a human-like body.

What I meant is that I'd want this character's relationship with Jean to be "I once was Jean Grey, but now I'm Phoenix" or "I had a crush on this human once and man... she destroyed my poor cosmic heart. But I'm over it now". :P

[Phoenixx9]

I think the X-office is reclaiming tbe Phoenix. Being in other world caused the return of Rachel’s Phoenix powers, Tini Howard as said.

I think now Jean is saying she is formerly Marvel Girl and the host blatantly calls her a former Phoenix she is going to reclaim the codename Phoenix. Disney Plus is doing the Echo television show and no, she won’t be Phoenix. What they are started to do is making Jean be a cosmic hero instead of holding the shadow of Dark Phoenix over her head. Even during the height of the retcon in X-Factor if Jean cut loose they feared a return of Dark Phoenix. As I said, Jean needed a proper redemption story and this story seems to be it.

I have long said that Jean with the PF should be a cosmic hero and would love to see Jean as part of a cosmic team on adventures. I would also love Jean to get the Phoenix back.

But another part of me wants to see what this new powerful Jean Grey can accomplish on her own without it.

[Mercury]

... Tbh, I think one of the biggest drawbacks to his X-Men title is how safe he's playing it, wherever possible. He's trying to please as many people as he can, as best he can, in large part because I think he IS aware of a lot of the criticism to his Marauders run, but the thing is......you can get GOOD writing, out of playing it safe and trying to keep as many people entertained as possible. But its really hard to get GREAT writing that way. The best stories require taking risks.

I assume the reason Duggan's work comes across as if he is "playing it safe" is because, in a sense, he has had to out of necessity? I mean, as I've said before, he wrote the first year of this series amidst three major events—Trial of Magneto, Inferno, and X Lives... and X Deaths of Wolverine—while preparing to enter another one—Judgment Day—this summer. I'm assuming there was but so much he could or was allowed to do. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the editorial mandate was to keep the plates spinning while serving action(!), intrigue, and light character work. Nevertheless, I've found his style refreshingly down-to-earth and straightforward and the threads and villains he's introduced fascinating.

...what actually tends to happen is writers end up trying not to DISPLEASE as many people as possible [...] so they err on the side of at least paying attention to what everyone DOESN'T want, the things that will actively alienate them, and shies away from that at any opportunity.

And that's kinda like the storytelling equivalent of painting a picture that isn't the result of having an actual image in mind and bringing it to life, but simply painting by way of negative space, painting away from everything you know people DON'T want to see and sorta just....seeing what that leaves you with. It creates an end product that's less likely to bother anyone, be something they OBJECT to.....but not all that likely to excite or ignite them either.

See my comment above. That being said, I don't think he's writing with the motive of "trying not to displease as many people as possible." I think he's just telling straightforward while keeping his eye on two to three overarching arcs he has established. Granted, his writing style might not be as highbrow or high-concept as writers like Hickman, Gillen, or Ewing, but it has a broad appeal and is more approachable as a result.

That's what I think the biggest 'flaw' in his X-Men run is, and his handling of the various characters. He's not writing TOWARDS his image of them and what their stories should be. He's writing AWAY from what he most commonly hears readers don't WANT their stories to be. His Jean isn't the worst I've seen her written, not by a wide margin. But she's not the best, either. She's kinda just there.....EXCEPT for a smattering of moments, where she really pops.

I've already written why I'm enjoying and rather excited about what he's doing with Jean. When he focuses on her, as you say, "she really pops," and that's far more than I can say she did under Hickman. Also, as much as I loved some Percy's moments for her, I think the criticism that "she's kinda just there" applies more to her role in X-Force and X Lives of Wolverine, though, again, I liked and even loved a lot of what he did with her. (In X-Force, Percy had her give a great speech to Beast about not fearing death right before she resurrected Xavier; it's one of my favorite moments of hers during the Dawn/Reign of X eras).

Furthermore, as I've said before, I think he's highlighted various aspects of Jean's character that haven't been highlighted since before the dawn of the Krakoan era, including showing how she feels about her troubled past and the way she has chosen to present herself up until recently (i.e., her use of the old uniform and codename). He's also given her some morally ambiguous or downright questionable things to do, such as pushing Lorna to go with her initial impulse regarding joining the team and, in the latest issue, having her break a gambler's hand when she really didn't need to go that far to get his and everyone else's attention. And it's clear to me, especially from what I've been told, that he's just getting started.

Overall, I think he's done great and refreshing character work with Jean and others, such as Everett, Lorna, and Scott. Granted, I wouldn't call his character work extensive or voluminous—he's been more focused on highlighting their abilities individually and as a team while fleshing out new villains and plot threads—but I also wouldn't call it safe or boring. I've actually grown to feel like I know and even love his Jean, Everett, Lorna, and Scott. They feel real and complex to me. So much so, in fact, that I pray he keeps them on the team and continues to reveal more about them. (It's obvious Jean and Scott are staying on, so I'm talking more abut Everett and Lorna here.)

[Mercury]

And thus rather than longer character arcs that advance these characters in specific directions and develop them in new and potentially lasting ways, what Duggan actually ends up creating, I think, are a lot of smaller character MOMENTS that give different groups of fans character BEATS they're pleased with and cater to their particular interests and wants for those characters. But these character moments are kinda scattered and effervescent. They create favorable reception, but they're hard to craft a lingering impression from. It makes it likelier for Duggan to receive a more positive response from fans DURING his run, WHILE he's writing and delivering these moments and fans are reading and receiving them for the first time, but is it going to create a story or arc for any of these characters that fans are going to come back to and reread or think of nostalgically once his run is over and he's moved on to something else? I don't know that it is.

I don't think the fact that Duggan hasn't created longer character arcs rests solely on him, though. As I stated above, I think the editorial mandates for this particular series have been specific and as a result of the aforementioned events he has had to tiptoe around and for which he has had to prepare. However, I think criticism of his struggle to consistently highlight each character within a team dynamic is valid. Even still, during the first three issues of the series, he did a fantastic job of doing just that. All of the team members were included, fought together, and worked as a whole beautifully. Then he began to dedicate issues to one or two characters at a time, which had/has it's benefits and downsides.

And to your point about whether he "has creat[ed] a story arc for these characters that fans are going to come back to and reread or think of nostalgically," I can say he has done so for me. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that I'm a biased Jean Grey fan, lol. Still, I've gone back to reread the first 11 issues published so far and was surprised by how much I enjoyed them, even more as a whole. You get the sense that he is really going somewhere with his plots and characters, unlike some writers whose writing may be more adorned and concepts more highbrow but who essentially just circle the drain and leave one impatient.

The irony of course, is that Duggan IS fully capable of committing to a longer storyline with a slowburn payoff, sink that time, page-space and energy into building something with weight and far-lasting implications. He's doing it in this very title, with his over-arching PLOT for the X-Men as a whole.

But he's just not doing it with the INVIDIDUAL X-Men. He builds up to a lot of things, teases various directions they could spin out of, maybe is using that to gauge how much interest or excitement people have for things like a story where Shiro goes to Otherworld. But while there's a definite larger shape to the team plot, is there that same shape to any of the members' personal arcs? Is there anything we can point to that says this is Lorna's character arc? There's development for Everett, focus on parts of his character and story like how he was changed by the Vault, the stuff with Urich, but is there an Everett STORYLINE, something that's going somewhere with intent rather than being a collection of Ev moments that are only tethered together by virtue of happening one after another in the pages of one single, continuous title?

And that's what I think his Jean is missing. She's not being written badly, by any means. I've enjoyed a number of her scenes. There's nothing particularly objectionable about his portrayal of her, its just....she's there until she's not and when she's not, there's not really any sense of where or when we'll see her next or in what context, what might be coming down the road for her CHARACTER....because there's not really been a STORY crafted out of her various scenes or that we can feel being built up to. I don't know that when his run is over, we'll be able to say 'this here was the overall shape of Jean's character in his run, this was the ARC he gave her, this was how being in this book advanced HER plot rather than just how her presence in the book was used to advance the book's plot.' And I would like to be able to, is the thing. I would like to read what story he comes up with for Jean specifically, for Ev, for Shiro, for Rogue. But we're almost a year in and I don't really see any greater shape forming around any of the individual characters, just the team as a whole.

And again, I disagree with your opinion that he isn't doing much with individual characters. I already touched upon the characters he's made me care about most. He's made Everett more proactive than he's been in a very long time, while also highlighting his potential and effectiveness. He's allowed Lorna's charm and pathos to shine through and spotlighted her strength and abilities. Frankly, he's made me fall in love with Scott again for the first time in forever. And as for Jean, during specific moments, I think he's underscored that she has been troubled and conflicted by how she's chosen to present and assert or not assert herself. He's depicted her as an effective mentor and leader. Could he develop these and other characters more? Absolutely. Then again, I think he will be, especially as we moved through and past Judgment Day.

If you look back through other X-Men runs, the original X-Men Red, the Dark Phoenix Saga, the original X-Factor, etc, etc.....each of those runs had over-arching stories for the whole team, sure, but you can also clearly see JEAN'S personal story shining through them too.

Claremont's runs are a whole other animal because he was using tools—expository captions, thought bubbles, etc.—most current writers aren't. It would be better to compare Duggan's run to its predecessor—Hickman's run—which certainly left me wanting.

At the end of the day, best you can do is write the story YOU want to write, and trust the fans who have a similar outlook on the characters will find it and enjoy it too, and the ones who don't, well....if you don't view the characters the same as them there was never really any chance of you writing that character's Next Great Epic in their eyes, y'know? So yeah, maybe as a writer you settled for writing moments they'd receive fondly, as that's easier to pull off while having a different overall interpretation....but is it worth it, if you hobble everything else your run or character arcs COULD be, were you to just...go for it in those directions instead?

So, yeah. That's my take on his run in general, and his depiction of Jean in particular. Its not great. Its not bad. Its safe. Its not going to make any waves.

But that's just it. Its not going to make any waves.

And like, if you want to write something that's remembered? Something that leaves people talking, leaves a mark, makes an impression, that lasts?

You gotta make some fucking waves.

Ultimately, I think Duggan's writing and overall run on this series will be judged best after Judgment Day and the dust from the three events before it has settled. It'll be interesting to see who keeps for and how his focus will change during year two.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts! You always bring much to ponder to the table!

[Mercury]

She has the acting range *and* the looks!

Okay, I'm sort of seeing your vision...

Color me intrigued.

[WallStreeter]

I don't necessarily think an anthropomorphic form would curtail its powers.I just want it to interact with humans if it chooses to through this human form, but still maintain its cosmic form as its default setting that it can also revert to if it chooses. A new non-Jean form would suit it imo as it would really feel autonomous from a reader perspective.

Why would the Phoenix force create a human body for itself that has not I had to do with another person? At that stage it has no connections anyone, which is why Marvel doesn’t do that.

Really, they could simply get rid of the Phoenix as consciousness, because it originally wasn’t. Rachel already has her Phoenix powers back by going to Otherworld.