Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Grinning Soul]

I'm wondering if Jean's small moment in X-Men 11 was already the moment Mr. Duggan was implying on twitter...? That would be a little disappointing after all this hype here. lol

"I did not even let the Phoenix command me." well, Jean....the Phoenix kinda did command you quite a bit throughout your entire history...

I find Jean's speech a little comical. Just walking into a room and telling strangers some random stuff about your life...I will do the same from now.


"you probably don't know me, but I'm a glamazon bitch ready for the runway."

Oh, come on, Exudus. These are comic books. This is the kind of stuff we make fun about but love it. Don't be a Yelena! :P

[MechaJeanix]

My interpretation of Jean’s line about the Phoenix was in reference to Phoenix Resurrection when she expelled it and told it off. Also in the Jean Grey solo the Phoenix states Jean’s influence over the Phoenix was unmatched -or something to that effect. So I think the line works. Plus in Morrison’s run she appeared in control of it and not the other way around imo so it checks.

[Rev9]

Krakoa ending...

Patience is a virtue

[andreikes]

I'm wondering if Jean's small moment in X-Men 11 was already the moment Mr. Duggan was implying on twitter...? That would be a little disappointing after all this hype here. lol

"I did not even let the Phoenix command me." well, Jean....the Phoenix kinda did command you quite a bit throughout your entire history...

I find Jean's speech a little comical. Just walking into a room and telling strangers some random stuff about your life...I will do the same from now.


"you probably don't know me, but I'm a glamazon bitch ready for the runway."

I'm not Marvel Girl anymore. I'm Jean Grey now.

I was wondering what makes a person arrive in a place where no one knows you and you say it randomly. These lines would have more relevance in the past and if it was her changing her costume.

I hope X-Men 12 is the moment...

[Grinning Soul]

Patience is a virtue

I'm going to be little ray of sunshine, me. Ready?

You know what is the worst part? Is that patience may not pay off. This is Marvel. Nothing guarantees that what will come after will be better...

I know. I have a lighthearted, delightful personality. :P

[Rev9]

I'm not Marvel Girl anymore. I'm Jean Grey now.

I was wondering what makes a person arrive in a place where no one knows you and you say it randomly. These lines would have more relevance in the past and if it was her changing her costume.

I hope X-Men 12 is the moment...

Maybe she was having a 4th wall moment

[Rev9]

I'm going to be little ray of sunshine, me. Ready?

You know what is the worst part? Is that patience may not pay off. This is Marvel. Nothing guarantees that what will come after will be better...

I know. I have a lighthearted, delightful personality. :P

Welcome to cynics incorporated

[I'm a Fish]

I like Jean having the capacity for frustration and indignation and anger. Her rare fits and flares are what make the character. "She is very nice all the time to everyone no matter the situation" is not a character.

Weezy, Morrison, Bendis, Hopeless, Percy allow a real human character with emotions and intentions and a certain willingness, up to a point, to take action like a person with motivations would.

I like Taylor but in a different way: he aimed to make her the paragon nice superhero type but allowed her an OK mix of failures and wins to still be a character. TaylorJean didn't have the requisite spice to reach the heights she could have, but she was still notable and additive for the character. TaylorJean was "aww so nice rainbows hugs" but in a decent way.

Yeah, I like a Jean Grey who is compassionate and selfless, but also has a notorious temper than you do not want to cross.

(I also like Max Wittert's Jean looool)

[Grinning Soul]

Welcome to cynics incorporated:o

I wish I was a cynic. It'd actually spare me of a lot of headache in my life.

Nah, I'm not a cynic. I like my heroes flawed, but heroic. I cheer for them to get their happy ending. I'm all for putting them through tough times so there is conflict in the story, something to be overcome. But I hate when writers are cruel just for the sake of creating a "big" story to put their names on.

I don't want cynical endings in my super hero books (I'll read other genres if I'm in the mood for that). I want my heroes to struggle, but win. Get some new scars along the way, but ultimately win and learn. Become better versions of themselves.

'Cause I don't know... That's life, right? It's what we should try to do. And if heroes aren't inspiring this kind of feeling... what's the point?

So... I'm definitely not a cynic. I just think Marvel once agreed with what I've just described. And they don't seem to do now.

Broken record time? That's fine. Their IPs, their choices. But it's not for me.

[MechaJeanix]

I like Jean having the capacity for frustration and indignation and anger. Her rare fits and flares are what make the character. "She is very nice all the time to everyone no matter the situation" is not a character.

Weezy, Morrison, Bendis, Hopeless, Percy allow a real human character with emotions and intentions and a certain willingness, up to a point, to take action like a person with motivations would.

I like Taylor but in a different way: he aimed to make her the paragon nice superhero type but allowed her an OK mix of failures and wins to still be a character. TaylorJean didn't have the requisite spice to reach the heights she could have, but she was still notable and additive for the character. TaylorJean was "aww so nice rainbows hugs" but in a decent way.

Bingo! Jean is best when the character feels like a fleshed out “real” character like so many other characters get to be (looking at you, Scott Summers and Emma Frost). I want the character to have flaws, make mistakes, and have some struggles. Too often there are missing beats in Jean’s story/progression. We need to know more about how she feels about Marvel Girl, the QC, her relationship(s), etc.

[WallStreeter]

I'm wondering if Jean's small moment in X-Men 11 was already the moment Mr. Duggan was implying on twitter...? That would be a little disappointing after all this hype here. lol

"I did not even let the Phoenix command me." well, Jean....the Phoenix kinda did command you quite a bit throughout your entire history...

I find Jean's speech a little comical. Just walking into a room and telling strangers some random stuff about your life...I will do the same from now.


"you probably don't know me, but I'm a glamazon bitch ready for the runway."

They know who she is and she declared who she was to make them get scared.

Her announcing that was meant to frighten them. And after some actin everyone moved out except the giant fungus.

[Warlioncomics]

[QUOTE=Mercury;6046580]

E867E586-D9ED-4908-9735-C5542F2DD19B.jpg

John Byrne saying what went wrong with Claremont’s Jean which is 100% accurate , it also reflects on the problem that Jean faced in adaptations (the animated series and the movies) which is the idea of the cooler characters get everything as if everything was just a reward for them being cool

The idea that Jean Grey can’t be explored except when she is single isn’t innovative, what’s innovative is the John Byrne route that many writers used with female characters in comics which is dealing with the relationship as an aspect of the character and not the center of her universe because technically nothing is the center of her universe

[Grinning Soul]

E867E586-D9ED-4908-9735-C5542F2DD19B.jpg

John Byrne saying what went wrong with Claremont’s Jean which is 100% accurate , it also reflects on the problem that Jean faced in adaptations (the animated series and the movies) which is the idea of the cooler characters get everything as if everything was just a reward for them being cool

The idea that Jean Grey can’t be explored except when she is single isn’t innovative, what’s innovative is the John Byrne route that many writers used with female characters in comics which is dealing with the relationship as an aspect of the character and not the center of her universe because technically nothing is the center of her universe

Yep. Moreover, both characters in the couple can be the protagonists. You don't need to have one be the girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse of the other.

When it comes to pop culture, I often point at the tv series Outlander for a good example of a couple of protagonists where both characters are tridimensional, have different personalities and have similarly important roles to the story. So that means it's not impossible to write a couple like that.

But nowadays there's been this push - it's not just about Jean - that a female character can't be in a romantic relationship otherwise she's immediately considered a non-empowered woman.

I often wonder if people even realize that truly means.

[Warlioncomics]

Yep. Moreover, both characters in the couple can be the protagonists. You don't need to have one be the girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse of the other.

When it comes to pop culture, I often point at the tv series Outlander for a good example of a couple of protagonists where both characters are tridimensional, have different personalities and have similarly important roles to the story. So that means it's not impossible to write a couple like that.

But nowadays there's been this push - it's not just about Jean - that a female character can't be in a romantic relationship otherwise she's immediately considered a non-empowered woman.

I often wonder if people even realize that truly means.

(Mercury will hate that but whatever , I’ll say it anyway 😂😂😂😂😂 )

That’s the thing that John Byrne succeeded in doing with Sue Storm and it worked so well that it’s the new status quo for Sue
No more “who shall date Sue” or “Sue is better off single” arguments-unless if we’re talking about some toxic fans or people who hate Reed-
There is only F4 comics with Sue Storm equally given developers and panels as any F4 members
This is what Jean needs , someone who ends the love triangles (both the Logan and Emma triangles) and focus on Jean’s development as a character when she’s in a relationship with Scott and give time for both to shine without overshadowing one another

[Grinning Soul]

(Mercury will hate that but whatever , I’ll say it anyway 😂😂😂😂😂 )

That’s the thing that John Byrne succeeded in doing with Sue Storm and it worked so well that it’s the new status quo for Sue
No more “who shall date Sue” or “Sue is better off single” arguments-unless if we’re talking about some toxic fans or people who hate Reed-
There is only F4 comics with Sue Storm equally given developers and panels as any F4 members
This is what Jean needs , someone who ends the love triangles (both the Logan and Emma triangles) and focus on Jean’s development as a character when she’s in a relationship with Scott and give time for both to shine without overshadowing one another

Don't worry. I'm around. It's more likely Mercury's will aim his hot fury at me. You're safe. :P

As a general rule, I deeply dislike love triangles. Very rarely they're well executed and most of the times, they just make one or two or all characters look horrible. So I always approach these stories with a lot of caution to say the least. In comic books, this is specially complicated because it's usually the female character(s) who suffer the most (for too many reasons to list in this post, but we can talk about it if you want).

Anyway, just like male characters, I don't think female characters *need* to be in a romantic relationship. That'd be hypocritical of me. I wasn't interested in the guys around me when I was younger and I really didn't want to have a boyfriend just so people would stop annoying me about it. I preferred to focus on my studies and let them think whatever the hell they wanted to think of me. So sure: I'd love to read stories about female characters like that. Depending on the story, it could even be Jean, you know?

But I like to read stories with strong couples too. If they're both well written, why not?

It bothers me this idea that a female character cannot be in a romantic relationship or she loses agency. I mean, think about it: what does it say about female characters and, by extension, women? Are we that much weaker on a fundamental basis that, the moment we allow ourselves to be emotionally vulnerable, a man will take over our lives?

I know that's not true. I was lucky to grow up with one paternal grandmother and one maternal great-grandmother who were living examples of strong women who grew up in a society where women had much less rights and opportunities and still they were forces of nature concentrated on little feminine bodies.

But it bothers me... it truly bothers me because it's not just about Jean, or Marvel or even Disney. It seems to be a pervasive line of thinking. It sends the message to little girls that "yes, men are stronger and they'll always be stronger than you, and not just physically" and to little boys that if they ever manage to convince a girl to date/marry them they become the bosses of them.

[Sorry for venting... but it just doesn't sit right with me.]

Anyway, this might seem unrelated, but it's not. The same societal perception that makes the female characters look bad on those love triangle stories is what makes people prefer female characters to be alone: it's this idea that women have a role to play and whenever they're not following the rules, they're wrong or weak or both... And come on... it's 2022. Shouldn't we be over it already?