Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[MechaJeanix]

Leah Williams does have some interesting ideas and I admit I used to read some of her stuff on tumblr years back, but it is important to note that when it comes to Jean she has a particular perspective (not that there is anything wrong about being a major Emma Frost stan).

As so many of you pointed out the narrative about the DPS became about power, and how Jean couldn't control the power she had and it became less about what actually happened in the story. The abuse and predatory behavior from Mastermind and Emma Frost (and others in the HFC) have been greatly diminished and rarely acknowledged. It would be nice for Emma to take responsibility for her part but I doubt that story would ever happen because they don't want to remind readers of some of the nastier things Emma has done. She's a good guy now (of course it is acceptable for Beast to be a good guy as they turn him into a monster but whatever). Emma is fully redeemed (except for a couple years ago when they tried to make her go dark for a little bit - I did not like that era because I do think Emma has come a long way and is a true X-man).

I'm going to go on rant but in my opinion certain stories shouldn't be retconned over and never should be messed with - and those are the quote, unquote best stories. That means Claremont's DPS and Morrison's entire run. If you want to retcon a story go with an uninspired writer or some story that has poor quality. It frustrates me how they mess with their literal best stories done by the best writers (not that Claremont's entire work classifies as the best but he had his moments for sure). Though it makes sense to mine the best stories in a way, the minor stories aren't important enough sometimes to be remembered... and future writers like to call back to their personal favorite stories.

Retcons complicate so much, look at Moira. She's not quite the same character. Jean went through that with the Phoenix retcons but at least in my mind the retcon isn't as bad as it was after Inferno and the Classic X-men backstories. It does give Jean a more soap operish biography. I think of her as the Laura Spencer of the X-men (I'm dating myself as a I reference a classic character from General Hospital and particularly the time the character died and later came back - which pretty sure was in the early 80s maybe).

I don't mean to go on too much about all this. I know some fans get triggered when we discuss the Dark Phoenix Saga or the Phoenix saga in general. I understand because I get triggered when we discuss Wolverine and Cyclops They really missed at opportunity after both Scott and Wolverine were back to have Jean choose herself and just be single. I'm jealous that Lorna and Alex can be separated, but Jean remains stuck with Logan and Scott (but if I had to choose I'd definitely choose Cyclops btw).

[Mercury]

Claremont posted this on Instagram a few days ago:

[Warlioncomics]

I don't mean to go on too much about all this. I know some fans get triggered when we discuss the Dark Phoenix Saga or the Phoenix saga in general. I understand because I get triggered when we discuss Wolverine and Cyclops They really missed at opportunity after both Scott and Wolverine were back to have Jean choose herself and just be single. I'm jealous that Lorna and Alex can be separated, but Jean remains stuck with Logan and Scott (but if I had to choose I'd definitely choose Cyclops btw).

Jean choosing to be free for a while doesn’t really make sense considering that she recently had that and had/has to live alone since all of her family (minus a daughter & a time traveling kid) are dead
The problem with Jean is that the writers can’t move on with her relationships being a part of her life but not the part they should focus on 100% of the time or even 30% of the time

Storm , Emma , Sue Storm and other females have had relationships and that didn’t mess with their stories as characters

Jean doesn’t get that a lot and Claremont is the one to blame because he was the one who messed up with the Jean loves Logan thing when he wanted to mess with editorials after x-factor launched & as we all know Claremont is a blueprint for any X-men stories so writers (especially hacks) can’t do anything but imitate his work & it never ends up good for them

That’s the issue with Jean that Hickman wanted to avoid but thanks to editors & writers messing with his original plan things got worse
(Hickman’s plan -according to Leah Williams on powerofxmen podcast- was that he hints at the Jean/Scott relationship and never to reveal anything, just focus on stories that can be told without love drama, Percy & Jordan White messed with that when they got the chance and now we saw the hellfire gala showing everyone dating and it’s been 3 years with little developments for Jean and Scott beside their new relationships dynamics)

[CapCyke]

Jean choosing to be free for a while doesn’t really make sense considering that she recently had that and had/has to live alone since all of her family (minus a daughter & a time traveling kid) are dead
The problem with Jean is that the writers can’t move on with her relationships being a part of her life but not the part they should focus on 100% of the time or even 30% of the time

Storm , Emma , Sue Storm and other females have had relationships and that didn’t mess with their stories as characters

Jean doesn’t get that a lot and Claremont is the one to blame because he was the one who messed up with the Jean loves Logan thing when he wanted to mess with editorials after x-factor launched & as we all know Claremont is a blueprint for any X-men stories so writers (especially hacks) can’t do anything but imitate his work & it never ends up good for them

That’s the issue with Jean that Hickman wanted to avoid but thanks to editors & writers messing with his original plan things got worse
(Hickman’s plan -according to Leah Williams on powerofxmen podcast- was that he hints at the Jean/Scott relationship and never to reveal anything, just focus on stories that can be told without love drama, Percy & Jordan White messed with that when they got the chance and now we saw the hellfire gala showing everyone dating and it’s been 3 years with little developments for Jean and Scott beside their new relationships dynamics)

I'm not surprised, it's pretty obvious that the Jean/Logan thing is purely due to Percy. There is no interaction between them outside of Percy's books.

[CapCyke]

Leah Williams does have some interesting ideas and I admit I used to read some of her stuff on tumblr years back, but it is important to note that when it comes to Jean she has a particular perspective (not that there is anything wrong about being a major Emma Frost stan).

As so many of you pointed out the narrative about the DPS became about power, and how Jean couldn't control the power she had and it became less about what actually happened in the story. The abuse and predatory behavior from Mastermind and Emma Frost (and others in the HFC) have been greatly diminished and rarely acknowledged. It would be nice for Emma to take responsibility for her part but I doubt that story would ever happen because they don't want to remind readers of some of the nastier things Emma has done. She's a good guy now (of course it is acceptable for Beast to be a good guy as they turn him into a monster but whatever). Emma is fully redeemed (except for a couple years ago when they tried to make her go dark for a little bit - I did not like that era because I do think Emma has come a long way and is a true X-man).

I'm going to go on rant but in my opinion certain stories shouldn't be retconned over and never should be messed with - and those are the quote, unquote best stories. That means Claremont's DPS and Morrison's entire run. If you want to retcon a story go with an uninspired writer or some story that has poor quality. It frustrates me how they mess with their literal best stories done by the best writers (not that Claremont's entire work classifies as the best but he had his moments for sure). Though it makes sense to mine the best stories in a way, the minor stories aren't important enough sometimes to be remembered... and future writers like to call back to their personal favorite stories.

Retcons complicate so much, look at Moira. She's not quite the same character. Jean went through that with the Phoenix retcons but at least in my mind the retcon isn't as bad as it was after Inferno and the Classic X-men backstories. It does give Jean a more soap operish biography. I think of her as the Laura Spencer of the X-men (I'm dating myself as a I reference a classic character from General Hospital and particularly the time the character died and later came back - which pretty sure was in the early 80s maybe).

I don't mean to go on too much about all this. I know some fans get triggered when we discuss the Dark Phoenix Saga or the Phoenix saga in general. I understand because I get triggered when we discuss Wolverine and Cyclops They really missed at opportunity after both Scott and Wolverine were back to have Jean choose herself and just be single. I'm jealous that Lorna and Alex can be separated, but Jean remains stuck with Logan and Scott (but if I had to choose I'd definitely choose Cyclops btw).

Jean is not single, but if it could be true that Scott took too much light, especially in the 90's, in the Krakoa era her relationship with Cyclops takes up practically no place. Since Duggan's Xmen started, how many times have they shared pages together? I don't understand the criticism.

If she had left X force because Scott didn't like seeing her there I could understand. If she had given up her place in the Council out of loyalty/fidelity to Scott OK.

But that's not the case, right?

[Mercury]

Jean choosing to be free for a while doesn't really make sense considering that she recently had that and had/has to live alone since all of her family (minus a daughter & a time traveling kid) are dead.

Jean choosing to spend time alone would make perfect sense, especially now. Her life since she emerged from the White Hot Room has moved at a rapid pace. From learning about the murder of her family to lending her support to the building of the Nation of Krakoa and everything else in between—e.g., meeting her time-displaced teenage self and remembering all of her experiences and epiphanies; mourning Scott; leading a team against Cassandra Nova; being sucked up into the events of Age of X-Man; and reuniting with Scott—she has not had a moment to rest or truly reflect. And based on her decisions since joining the Krakoan bandwagon, it's obvious she has a lot to reflect on and think about, some of which we're only now beginning to learn about, such as her choice to revert back to the Marvel Girl garb and moniker—something she has apparently been conflicted about—and her decision to shed both.

And I already know what you're going to say: "She can do that with Scott." Well, she can share with Scott what she's realized after going off on her own. Some of us hardcore Jean fans want her to be alone for various reasons that I'm not going to bother going into detail about right now—I might be tempted to later—but I think those reasons are quite obvious. She has dedicated most of her time to Scott—his family, his wellbeing, his efforts—and it's about damn time she focuses on herself and her wants and needs. I know this may be controversial to some, but maybe this is precisely why she has sought comfort from Logan, who really never expects or wants anything from her other than to be herself. Sure, he's been a perverted douchebag who has crossed her physical boundaries several times, but he has also been supremely vulnerable with her throughout their years as friends and rooted for and had confidence in her when very few did.





Look, I love what Jean and Scott's relationship and marriage have symbolized. Overall, it's been a beautiful thing. And I'd go as far as to say that, if the powers that be want them to stay together, I truly hope for the best for them and long to see what they could be and come to symbolize now. They deserve it all. When they click and are in sync, there's nothing more beautiful. And there's also no one else that knows each of them better than the other does. (I am convinced that even if they were to go separate ways romantically, they would still be best friends and intimately, if platonically, involved in one another's lives.) However, I also want to see more focus on Jean and her inner life, struggles, and aspirations, which, from what I've heard, is exactly what I'm going to be getting soon. And if that means she takes a moment to be by herself, away from Scott and Logan, well then so be it. I won't complain, and it'll certainly make sense to me.

The problem with Jean is that the writers can't move on with her relationships being a part of her life but not the part they should focus on 100% of the time or even 30% of the time. Storm, Emma, Sue Storm and other females have had relationships and that didn't mess with their stories as characters

I think you're inadvertently making the case for those of us who would like to see her spend some time alone. Incidentally, Sue has gone through her periods when all she was identified as was Mrs. Richards. However, she has had some fantastic moments that have showcased her strength and independence; then again, so has Jean. Also, some have pointed out that, in the thick of her relationship with Scott, Emma's characterization suffered, too, which is something to think about.

In either case, these things come in ebbs and flows. Jean had a wonderful renaissance during her time-displacement and X-Men Red era, both of which reestablished that she’s a fascinatingly complex character brimming with pathos and that she can carry and sell books. She took a backseat, save for a few strong moments, for the majority of Hickman's run due to reasons we may never know. Thankfully, the tides are beginning to turn.

Jean doesn't get that a lot and Claremont is the one to blame because he was the one who messed up with the Jean loves Logan thing when he wanted to mess with editorials after x-factor launched & as we all know Claremont is a blueprint for any X-men stories so writers (especially hacks) can't do anything but imitate his work & it never ends up good for them

I think you give Claremont too hard a time.

That's the issue with Jean that Hickman wanted to avoid but thanks to editors & writers messing with his original plan things got worse (Hickman's plan -according to Leah Williams on powerofxmen podcast- was that he hints at the Jean/Scott relationship and never to reveal anything, just focus on stories that can be told without love drama, Percy & Jordan White messed with that when they got the chance and now we saw the hellfire gala showing everyone dating and it's been 3 years with little developments for Jean and Scott beside their new relationships dynamics)

I think you give Hickman too much credit regarding his plans for Jean.

[Grinning Soul]

And I already know what you're going to say: "She can do that with Scott." Well, she can share with Scott what she's realized after going off on her own. Some of us hardcore Jean fans want her to be alone for various reasons that I'm not going to bother going into detail about right now—I might be tempted to later—but I think those reasons are quite obvious. She has dedicated most of her time to Scott—his family, his wellbeing, his efforts—and it's about damn time she focuses on herself and her wants and needs. I know this may be controversial to some, but maybe this is precisely why she has sought comfort from Logan, who really never expects or wants anything from her other than to be herself. Sure, he's been a perverted douchebag who has crossed her physical boundaries several times, but he has also been supremely vulnerable with her throughout their years as friends and rooted for and had confidence in her when very few did.

[Please read with a neutral, most respectful tone of voice.]

I'm not going to argue against your (or anyone's) wishes. I respect them. I just want to point something out regarding what I bolded.

When you're with someone on a relationship of marriage or equivalent, you go into it because you *want* to share your life with them. Their family becomes your family. Their well-being becomes your well-being. And both Scott and Jean had shared their efforts even before they became a couple.

You know you have a good partner when they do the same for you. And Scott did too.

I'm not saying you're like this - and it's really not aimed at anyone in particular here - but there is a certain idea nowadays that you can't share your life with someone and still be an individual. That's not true. You can and it might be a difficult learning curve for some, but it is possible.

Lastly, I'm not going to go into Logan's expectations of Jean because it's not the point. But when did Scott ever wanted Jean to be a different person than she is? He's always accepted her *exactly* as she is, hot temper included. His only problem has been with the Phoenix, for obvious reasons. But after AvX, he's probably over that too. Or are we also to expect his views never to evolve regardless of what he's lived?

Anyway... I'm just putting those things here for you to consider if you want. I'm really not trying to convince anyone to change their points of view. I'm just sharing some thoughts because those things are obvious to me and they might not be to someone else. But really, I don't want to argue this, okay? If you or anyone thinks this is rubbish, that's fine.


EDITED: Confession time? I get the feeling of wanting Jean to be by herself. Mine - and I suspect this is true for most people who feel this way, whether they're aware of it or not - comes from the fact that I do not believe that Marvel can or is willing to write a functional, healthy relationship when it comes to Jean (or even Scott for that matter). I hope they will, but there are days where my cynicism wins. There are days when I think: "Oh, just let Jean be alone. Get her out of the context of the X-Men so she can *actually* grow. Eff this sh**". So really: I get it.

[PyroFN]

As so many of you pointed out the narrative about the DPS became about power, and how Jean couldn't control the power she had and it became less about what actually happened in the story. The abuse and predatory behavior from Mastermind and Emma Frost (and others in the HFC) have been greatly diminished and rarely acknowledged. It would be nice for Emma to take responsibility for her part but I doubt that story would ever happen because they don't want to remind readers of some of the nastier things Emma has done.

I disagree in terms of them not portraying Emma taking responsibility.

She has admitted to her wrong doing before and has stated her actions she does now are to rectify her mistakes of the past. Doing a story about it at this point would be not only a step-back into territory that Jean herself is over based on the fact that she has been in Emma’s mind and has worked closely with Emma, but because the things Emma did are in fact things that shouldn’t and won’t be forgiven anyways. It’s a mistake Emma now has to live with for the rest of her life. So, taking responsibility now of all times would not only be out-of-nowhere and beating a dead-horse, but it would be a useless endeavor since either Jean does the realistic thing and not forgive Emma or Jean does the bigger, yet controversially unrealistic thing of forgiving Emma for what happened.







Think of it similar terms to Jean taking responsibility for the Dark Phoenix D’Bari incident. It happened so long ago and has been addressed before. Addressing it again wouldn’t be a good thing storywise and realistically. Grinning Soul, imo, was right about the best thing for Jean and Emma is to just be tolerable work-mates(and possibly shareholders of Scott’s heart) and not be close friends (sorry Leah).

[Gnostic]

Think of it similar terms to Jean taking responsibility for the Dark Phoenix D’Bari incident.

I was just thinking about that. It is labeled as genocide, but genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". When Jean eats the star the narration states that she just wasn't thinking about the consequences, so it was more or less an accident.

Not saying that excuses her carelessness, but I think it has been mislabeled as genocide. Does anybody else feel this way?

[Grinning Soul]

I was just thinking about that. It is labeled as genocide, but genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". When Jean eats the star the narration states that she just wasn't thinking about the consequences, so it was more or less an accident.

Not saying that excuses her carelessness, but I think it has been mislabeled as genocide. Does anybody else feel this way?

Yep. While I understand people use genocide as synonym for mass murder, it also reduces what actually happened to an deliberate, evil act. When it was, in fact, an act of negligence perpetrated by someone who was in no condition to act responsibly. Does it make the result any different? No. D'Bari died regardless of Jean/Phoenix's intentions. But to say her intentions don't matter when you judge her? That's not fair either. That's to say there is no difference between 1st or 2nd degree murder.

[Warlioncomics]

Jean choosing to spend time alone would make perfect sense, especially now. Her life since she emerged from the White Hot Room has moved at a rapid pace. From learning about the murder of her family to lending her support to the building of the Nation of Krakoa and everything else in between—e.g., meeting her time-displaced teenage self and remembering all of her experiences and epiphanies; mourning Scott; leading a team against Cassandra Nova; being sucked up into the events of Age of X-Man; and reuniting with Scott—she has not had a moment to rest or truly reflect. And based on her decisions since joining the Krakoan bandwagon, it's obvious she has a lot to reflect on and think about, some of which we're only now beginning to learn about, such as her choice to revert back to the Marvel Girl garb and moniker—something she has apparently been conflicted about—and her decision to shed both.



And I already know what you're going to say: "She can do that with Scott." Well, she can share with Scott what she's realized after going off on her own. Some of us hardcore Jean fans want her to be alone for various reasons that I'm not going to bother going into detail about right now—I might be tempted to later—but I think those reasons are quite obvious. She has dedicated most of her time to Scott—his family, his wellbeing, his efforts—and it's about damn time she focuses on herself and her wants and needs. I know this may be controversial to some, but maybe this is precisely why she has sought comfort from Logan, who really never expects or wants anything from her other than to be herself. Sure, he's been a perverted douchebag who has crossed her physical boundaries several times, but he has also been supremely vulnerable with her throughout their years as friends and rooted for and had confidence in her when very few did.






Look, I love what Jean and Scott's relationship and marriage have symbolized. Overall, it's been a beautiful thing. And I'd go as far as to say that, if the powers that be want them to stay together, I truly hope for the best for them and long to see what they could be and come to symbolize now. They deserve it all. When they click and are in sync, there's nothing more beautiful. And there's also no one else that knows each of them better than the other does. (I am convinced that even if they were to go separate ways romantically, they would still be best friends and intimately, if platonically, involved in one another's lives.) However, I also want to see more focus on Jean and her inner life, struggles, and aspirations, which, from what I've heard, is exactly what I'm going to be getting soon. And if that means she takes a moment to be by herself, away from Scott and Logan, well then so be it. I won't complain, and it'll certainly make sense to me.



I think you're inadvertently making the case for those of us who would like to see her spend some time alone. Incidentally, Sue has gone through her periods when all she was identified as was Mrs. Richards. However, she has had some fantastic moments that have showcased her strength and independence; then again, so has Jean. Also, some have pointed out that, in the thick of her relationship with Scott, Emma's characterization suffered, too, which is something to think about.



In either case, these things come in ebbs and flows. Jean had a wonderful renaissance during her time-displacement and X-Men Red era, both of which reestablished that sheÂ’s a fascinatingly complex character brimming with pathos and that she can carry and sell books. She took a backseat, save for a few strong moments, for the majority of Hickman's run due to reasons we may never know. Thankfully, the tides are beginning to turn.



I think you give Claremont too hard a time.




I think you give Hickman too much credit regarding his plans for Jean.

I don’t give Claremont too hard time, he did something and I express how i hate its consequences
Nothing more , nothing less

Jean wanting to be single doesn’t make sense considering that she kinda had that not long ago as a kid and as an adult + there is an aspect about her considering a lot of things about her life and relationships and it is losing the people she cared about including Scott
0AE2608A-E1BC-4D59-A672-9D39E8135E28.jpg

IÂ’ve not said she canÂ’t get her solo book , arc or anything of that kind
I said she can get it without leaving Scott , Sue had her solo run in 2018 by Mark Waid & that didnÂ’t require her to leave Reed or ignore her relationships to any of her family

I refer to X-men 4 (Duggan) as a good premise of writing a Jean story as it only focused on Jean and did so without ignoring her relationship (gave the readers a cute moment in the end)
ThatÂ’s what I want a Jean book to be like -I donÂ’t want Scott included in the book as a side character alone, I also want Cable, Rachel, Storm and others because JeanÂ’s relationships are a lot and havenÂ’t been really explored since her return

EmmaÂ’s characterization hasnÂ’t suffered because of her relationship at all , it suffered from the IvX , death of X and all of these weird stories



I know how he writes stuff because IÂ’ve read a lot of his stuff & a lot of his X-men related interviews (and listened to a couple of podcasts with him talking about how his plans were altered because the writers & editors wanted to stretch things beyond the original 3 years plan & thatÂ’s why he quit the X-men)
What I said about the polyamory plans isnÂ’t something IÂ’m saying because IÂ’m a Hickman fan , it was stated by a writer in the X-office & it can be seen that it was followed by everyone for almost 3 years except for Ben Percy
Duggan played with that a lot in Cable , Marauders and is playing with it in X-men & the hellfire gala
In Marauders and Cable he hinted at Scott not being with Emma then he hinted at the contradiction in X-men
A lot of people think that heÂ’ll confirm something at the gala but i donÂ’t believe so
HeÂ’ll probably come out and laugh about people who believed that heÂ’ll reveal anything

He did that before X-men 6 came out, teased a lot of Scemma fans with showing Scott and Emma intimate and it turned out to be them talking the same way Scott and Emma always talked whether they were together or not
The difference between X-men 6 and the other comics is that Scott was naked which doesnÂ’t say anything since everyone saw everyone naked on Krakoa

[WallStreeter]

I was just thinking about that. It is labeled as genocide, but genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". When Jean eats the star the narration states that she just wasn't thinking about the consequences, so it was more or less an accident.

Not saying that excuses her carelessness, but I think it has been mislabeled as genocide. Does anybody else feel this way?

She later tells Cyclops when they are on the blue area of the moon she felt the screams of the dying and it felt good. Then of course during the Morrison run it said the Phoenix judges and eats stars and planets.

The destruction of D’Bari was no accident.

[Mercury]

I’ll respond to other posts later.

She later tells Cyclops when they are on the blue area of the moon she felt the screams of the dying and it felt good. Then of course during the Morrison run it said the Phoenix judges and eats stars and planets.

The destruction of D’Bari was no accident.

Claremont explicitly states in the clip below that Dark Phoenix destroyed D’Bari “by accident.” (The moment is just past the 1 minute and 50 second mark.) I subscribe to his take on the story, especially since he wrote it. Keep in mind, during interviews, I don’t think he—or anyone else, for that matter—properly contextualizes Jean’s unraveling and transformation into Dark Phoenix, especially as being a result of Wyngarde’s abuse.

Honestly, I think Wyngarde’s abuse of Jean is the pink elephant in the room people pussyfoot around because of how sensitive a topic it is. When you string the panels of his “manipulations” together, it’s pretty clear he was doing more than just tapping into her “private fantasies.” He was gaslighting, stupefying, and enveloping her in a world of his creation that derived from his life, ideology, and proclivities, while tapping into and coaxing her through a combination of fear and seduction to give into her base and instinctual amorphous desires.



To his credit, Claremont did note that Jean had emerged from being "sucked up into this Black Queen personality, this...cruel, decadent trip" and was "overwhelmed," "reacting, not acting," and "not sane." He implies she had "diminished capacity." Of course, I find all of this very telling.

[Grinning Soul]

For those who haven't read it and might be confused because of the semantics. This is the actual text in X-Men #135, at the moment where Jean/Phoenix consumes the star that leads to the destruction of the D'Bari system.

--

X-Men #135:

- Jean (thinking): Transition took more out of me than I antecipated. My power is considerable -- and growing -- but, for the moment, it's still finite. Like it or not -- and I don't -- I still have limits. I'm ravenous. Before I go on, I need sustenance. This star should do nicely".

- Narrator: "Without a thought of the consequences, she dives into the heart of a main sequence, G-Type star much like our own sun".

--

So she didn't consume the star by accident, but "without a thought of the consequence" clearly shows she did not pre-meditate to kill the D'Bari.

By Jean/Phoenix's thoughts, we can say this is a power trip. "Like it or not -- and I don't -- I still have limits". But Claremont gives further insight into this with the narration on the next page:

"And in the center of the Super-Nova she created, Dark Phoenix thrills to the absolute power that is hers. She is in ecstacy."

"Absolute power". Keep that in mind and keep reading, please:

"Yet she knows that this is only the begining -- that what she feels now is nothing compared to what she experienced within the great M'Krann Crystal".

And there is even an editor's note pointing to X-Men #108 here. So fair to say: a past event, something she's lived already.

This is the point where nuance is usually lost. Yes, it is a power trip. Yes, it's about absolute power leading to absolute corruption. But at this point in nearrative Jean has *already* experience a higher state of power and she did *not* lose control at that point. There is something else triggering this corruption, something that hadn't been there before: the Hellfire Club manipulation and the effects it had on her mental health. Without this key element, we don't get the Dark Phoenix Saga.

The point is: yes, Jean/Phoenix is experiencing this darkness but only because she is not operating under her normal conditions of mental health. And *this* is the main mitigating factor here. But on top of that, it wasn't even pre-meditated murder. Killing the D'Bari people was not her goal.

Enjoying their deaths is part of this twisted power trip, but that does not make it pre-meditated.

[Mercury]

"Yet she knows that this is only the begining -- that what she feels now is nothing compared to what she experienced within the great M'Krann Crystal".

And there is even an editor's note pointing to X-Men #108 here. So fair to say: a past event, something she's lived already.

This is the point where nuance is usually lost. Yes, it is a power trip. Yes, it's about absolute power leading to absolute corruption. But at this point in [the] narrative Jean has *already* experience a higher state of power and she did *not* lose control at that point. There is something else triggering this corruption, something that hadn't been there before: the Hellfire Club manipulation and the effects it had on her mental health. Without this key element, we don't get the Dark Phoenix Saga.

The point is: yes, Jean/Phoenix is experiencing this darkness but only because she is not operating under her normal conditions of mental health. And *this* is the main mitigating factor here. But on top of that, it wasn't even pre-meditated murder. Killing the D'Bari people was not her goal.

All of this. Not to mention, she didn’t lose control under Seagle or during Claremont or Morrison’s later runs, which somewhat substantiates that the abuse played a pivotal role in her unraveling.

Enjoying their deaths is part of this twisted power trip, but that does not make it pre-meditated.

This wasn’t a part of the original story, though I’m curious to know in what issue she admitted to enjoying the deaths of the D’Bari. I wouldn’t be surprised if there exists such a moment. Then again, there are panels in which she completely differentiates between herself and Phoenix/Dark Phoenix and Madelyne Pryor, along with panels in which she explicitly states she was/is all three.

I’ve come to interpret these inconsistencies, i.e., my headcanon states that she is all three but hasn’t fully processed the abuse and fragmentation central to Dark Phoenix and Madelyne Pryor’s existences.

Also, regarding your reply to my previous post, I want to reflect more on it, so I will respond to it later today. As always, you give me much to think about. Bless you. :hug: