Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Phoenixx9]

Interesting how Cordyceps referred to Jean as former "Phoenix"...and not former "host of the phoenix".

Well, Jean was The Phoenix, lol.

[Tank]

Last I checked (minutes ago) the Phoenix: Endsong timeline was negated by the actions of the teenage 05's time-hopping -- thus, it never happened.

When and where did it say this? They didnt do anything that changed what Happened in Endsong as far as Im
Aware.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Last I checked (minutes ago) the Phoenix: Endsong timeline was negated by the actions of the teenage 05's time-hopping -- thus, it never happened.

To my knowledge, that hasn't been stated in the comics, but also they don't need to state that in the comics. They can and did just defacto retcon it by not mentioning it. Jean didn't go merge with the Phoenix in Endsong; she was just plain dead in the ground as of Phoenix Resurrection. Not explicitly stated that Endsong isn't canon, but it's non-canon in a practical sense.

[Tank]

To my knowledge, that hasn't been stated in the comics, but also they don't need to state that in the comics. They can and did just defacto retcon it by not mentioning it. Jean didn't go merge with the Phoenix in Endsong; she was just plain dead in the ground as of Phoenix Resurrection.

They have no reason to mention it now, but doesnt mean it wad retconned jusy because something has not been mentioned in a while. In fact in Phoenix resurrection there was reference to her time as white phoenix.

[Mercury]

They have no reason to mention it now, but doesnt mean it wad retconned jusy because something has not been mentioned in a while. In fact in Phoenix resurrection there was reference to her time as white phoenix.

This is Kitty's rationale, though: If it hasn't been mentioned, it's been retconned.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

They have no reason to mention it now, but doesnt mean it wad retconned jusy because something has not been mentioned in a while. In fact in Phoenix resurrection there was reference to her time as white phoenix.

It's true that there was a panel of Jean in the white costume, but Jean shows know signs of having been merged with the Phoenix. She was dead-dead for the purposes of the stories. So technically and in a practical story-telling sense, Micabe is correct.

This is Kitty's rationale, though: If it hasn't been mentioned, it's been retconned.

Rationale and reality.

I'm not saying us reading Endsong didn't happen, it just didn't happen for Jean anymore. lol

And disregarding Endsong is all for the best I suppose, as Kieron and Aaron and co prepare to give the Phoenix to Echo, and a t-rex, and Mystique, and a rabbit or who/whatever else and make a further mockery.

[loke13]

So like absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. That being said we do have evidence that Endsong is cannon so I'm confused lol

[Starchilde]

Interesting how Cordyceps referred to Jean as former "Phoenix"...and not former "host of the phoenix".

(This is totally my personal take but based on what I've seen and recalled and analized lol).

My theory on Phoenix is that Jean is the only one who can become the actual Phoenix, and other people who have bonded with it are just "hosts of the Phoenix". This means Jean is not an actual Phoenix Host when she has the Force, but the Phoenix itself and she is the only one who can achieve this divine-like state. I see Phoenix as an analogue to the Holy Trinity, where the Phoenix "Force" is the Holy Spirit aspect of this Trinity. As in the Bible, the Holy Spirit can give attributtes to other people, like when it blessed the apostles and gave them the capacity to speak tongues. But those apostles didn't become "God". I see the same with the many hosts of the Phoenix, they are like the Apostles. But the only person who can become THE PHOENIX, is Jean Grey, who is another part of this Trinity and the Trinity as a whole at the same time. Hers is the aspect of the Father: God. The role of the Son I attributte it to Rachel, and thats why I think she can become Phoenix logically, and have access to this divine state, since the Father can manifest through the Son. Aside from her, the only other person that I think has had a bit of access to this "divine revelation" is Hope. The difference is that Rachel got this by nature (being Jean's only natural daughter), and Hope got it by the "Grace" of the Phoenix (Jean). As Mercury have said in some of his posts, Hope seems to be sent by the Phoenix, who is Jean. Although Hope is potrayed as a messiah in the comics, I see her role more similar to that of a Saint: God, with his (her) Grace has given her the gift to do miracles.

Jean being the only actual person who can be "the" Phoenix explains many things, like: How she can control and be in charge of the White Hot Room, something that no one else seems to be able to do. Teen Jean confirmed it.

I wish Gillen does something like this in his one-shot. The connection between Jean and Phoenix needs to be explained as something that trascends mutants and humans. Why is she the perfect host and all of that? It has to be because the Phoenix Force is actually part of herself. I think it was Bobbysworld (?) that proposed a theory here where the Phoenix as a FORCE was created when Jean, Phoenix, died on the moon and then traveled through time and space and became omnipresent. It's still hers even if its separated from her because their origin is the same. Like the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is an aspect of God but its also God. The Force went to the start of time then, it explains how it bonded to different people, included the Prehistoric girl who looks like Jean. They don't even need to retcon any of Aaron's stuff!

Edit: I think that the Force being "born" from Jean is kinda referenced in that Classic X-Men Death story? Many things have happened since, of course, but, is still some kind of reference lol.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

It's sort of like Hank Pym going bananas on Janet or Colossus having a kid. Sure, you read those things, but functionally they didn't happen.

[Micabe]

So like absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. That being said we do have evidence that Endsong is cannon so I'm confused lol

Try inserting Phoenix: Endsong into current continuity. Think about it for a moment... Exactly between which story arcs would you place Phoenix: Endsong so that it makes sense canonically?

[Mercury]

Avengers vs. X-Men (2012) ends with Jean pushing Scott to release the fragments of the Phoenix Force he possesses, after which Hope is able to manifest the Phoenix Force and, along with Wanda, send it back to the White Hot Room. Somewhat tangentially, later, in X-Men: No More Humans (2014), time-displaced Jean meets an alternate universe (AU) version of herself that is being controlled by an AU Mastermind and, consequently, has turned into Dark Phoenix. AU Dark Phoenix tries burning Jean away but realizes she can't; it is implied that the Phoenix Force "pulled [its] punch" because it wants her, too. "It wants both of us," reveals AU Dark Phoenix. Time-displaced Jean merges with them and eventually helps save Earth. Scott credits Jean with being the one who helped turn the Phoenix Force around.


Next, in Jean Grey (2017), time-displaced Jean is visited by what I consider to be "White Hot Room Jean," as she tries to help her fight off the Phoenix Force. Eventually, time-displaced teenage Jean is incinerated by the Phoenix Force, though she is able to take control of the White Hot Room and force the Phoenix Force to resurrect her. Somewhat concurrently, Phoenix Resurrection (2017-2018) begins with Jean already in the White Hot Room, living her fantasy life as manifested by the Phoenix Force. The implication is that Jean is able to both be in the White Hot Room and travel around in her astral form (see Jean Grey). Eventually, Jean overcomes and sends the Phoenix Force away.


In neither of the aforementioned stories is it stated that Jean is "dead-dead." In fact, in two (AvX and Jean Grey) out of those four stories, Jean is depicted in astral or spirit form and is clearly not dead; it is implied that she is in the White Hot Room. In one of those stories, she actually is in the White Hot Room. Moreover, I have not counted the handful of times she appeared as White Phoenix before, during, and after some of the stories mentioned above.

[Mercury]

And let us never forget Claremont's stamped-with-Marvel's-approval page from the official prequel to Days of the Future Past published in 2021.



Ultimately, Jean's connection to the Phoenix Force will either be clarified once and for all by Gillen, as the solicit claims, or made even more mysterious.

[PyroFN]

It was already confirmed in Guardians of the Galaxy that she not only siphons psychic energy, she also becomes it, which is completely different to encasing herself in TK.

Nope, she still only states that she siphons psychic energy and sending back out. She never confirms becoming it.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Jean isn't merged with the Phoenix and being WPotC if the Phoenix is running around pestering Teen Jean or fighting Avengers. As for Phoenix Resurrection, Jean wasn't in the WHR at all. She was very much dead-dead in the ground. The Phoenix dragged her up and put her in a dome on earth with diner illusions. Hopeless, bless his poorly-treated soul, wrote Jean as a ghost, entirely unaware that they were planning to bring her back. He was not fond of being left out.There was no implication of ghost Jean also being in the WHR. And as you mention, Teen Jean went there herself. Big Jean wasn't there. Because in Hopeless' story and Resurrection she was dead, not merged with the Phoenix.

I loved the issue where Jean appears in Wolverine's mind as White Phoenix while he was having one of his possession episodes. I think they left it open that that White Phoenix could have been Wolvie's own brain making her up, but I enjoyed it. Regardless, if that was her, it ceased to fit into later continuity when they decided the White Phoenix merger thingy was out.

I like the idea of Jean being this big Super Special Phoenix host, but I suspect Marvel is going to keep telling us that Jean/Phoenix isn't and shouldn't have ever been a thing.

Now it's Kieron Gillen's turn to give Phoenix Jean the bird, so to speak.

[Mercury]

Jean's connection to the Phoenix Force and why and when she has chosen to intervene as White Phoenix, as evidenced in the Claremont page I posted above, remains mysterious. And the fact of the matter is, if she's appearing in spirit or astral form, she's not "dead-dead." And again, Phoenix Resurrection begins with Jean not only living her fantasy life in the White Hot Room, i.e., there is no exhumation of her body or spirit by the Phoenix Force, but also affecting reality outside of it.