Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Micabe]

I would say Jean Grey is without a doubt ineffable.

[andreikes]

really?

Dugann's Jean: Empathatic, powerful, and diplomatic X-Men leader with a temper? Or, understanding and patient but who won't take sh*t! (I'm looking at you, Beast) This is for me very coherent with her depiction in the last 60 years.

How would you characterize Jean Grey?

I think this development you're talking about is Sync (sarcasm) . Duggan wrote Sync very well. With Jean he put a few action scenes, changed the costume after several edits and a final scene (after 12) good but ambiguous.
"ah but it's a team and he should share his time with everyone"
Rogue, X 23 and Polaria super well developed

[PyroFN]

Sorry, I thought I was pretty direct, rather than implying. What I meant was that I suspect people will look back on today's Jean stories and think they are terrible, or just there at best.

I will apologize, too, then.

From your explanation, it seems you directed your sarcasm towards the writers, not the consumers.

You can say they are great, I can say they are terrible, and there are probably some who think great and terrible are both too strong of words. I called the stories *amazing* because I was editorially told they are amazing and the topic was about telling people what they can say. The point is, someone might say a story you like is terrible, or use any number of adjectives and metaphors to say it's bad... even when you say they can't say that...and still the world will turn.

While I don’t know if it’s true about them selling the stories as amazing (outside maybe Jordan), I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I do remember them talking about how it was great working with the other writers, but outside of Hickman, I don’t remember them specifically praising others stories.

The X-Writers group seems to be more tight-knit as co-workers, and friends in Leah’s, Vita’s, and Tini’s case, versus judgment about their stories. Then again, it’s entirely possible I subconsciously dismiss any claims about how good a story is to not mar my own impression.

Also, someone putting down a story you like is not a personal attack on you.

Depends on the context. In the case you mean, it wasn’t meant to be.

In the case I initially thought you intended, I see this quote from you:

“I am personally told that these are absolutely *amazing* appearances by Jean, yet I doubt anyone will remember anything about these stories besides "Jean was nostalgic for the 60s" and "she kissed Wolverine in a bath tub”

And then my mind turned to times Mercury has expressed how much they loved Jean expressing her confidence, subtlety, her power, and leadership qualities in certain stories. So, in that context, it could be taken as a snide remark with how I processed the statement.

I don’t think any person is normally malicious by any means (unless it’s very consistent), so even if I do get cross, I don’t do so out of sheer judgment. This is what I mean to Celestialbodies when I say we can think that we are being clear with our intent and it turns out we aren’t. It happens to me all the time and is something I desperately try to work on. My explanation gets wordy, but it is better in my eyes than accidentally hurting someone’s feelings, which I’m very hard on myself about. I’m understanding of that issue, which is why I give a lot of benefit of the doubt to people.

[PyroFN]

The way duggan has written Jean in X-Men has been very bland and one dimensional and a lot of you eat it up and I don’t know why since it’s obvious he doesn’t understand Jean’s personality

I disagree. I think he captures a fraction of her personality, but misses out on some of her other notable qualities. It’s something Tom Taylor had trouble with as well in Red. Hell, you get a sense of that from the 90’s animated series and X-Men Anime (though to be fair to that last one, she isn’t supposed to have a character arc and is more in the role that White Phoenix of the Crown takes).

really?

Dugann's Jean: Empathatic, powerful, and diplomatic X-Men leader with a temper? Or, understanding and patient but who won't take sh*t! (I'm looking at you, Beast) This is for me very coherent with her depiction in the last 60 years.

Exactly this.

Duggan captures the type of Jean Grey seen in X-Men: Legends (the video game) or what Charles Xavier used to be before the late-2000’s and early 2010’s. A role model type character who shows the right way to handle a situation, one where you don’t compromise your morals. The “I choose option 3” type of character when they are only given two options that would compromise a moral either way.

Jean has had those kind of moments even with Claremont, Simonson, and Morrison, so it’s not inaccurate. It’s just an aspect of her.

How would you characterize Jean Grey?

Gonna answer this question because it’s so damn fun to do so, no matter how many times I am asked this.

I see her as a the simple good girl who tries to do the right thing. Tries to be perfect.

On the surface, that sounds boring to some people, but those kind of people don’t realize just how difficult it is to always be good and perfect in a world where everyone is worried about themselves, ambitious to the point of taking advantage of those weaker than them, and are rude because they are thinking of their own needs without considering the other person. People who take the excuse of “Everyone else being horrible, so why don’t I follow suit”. That causes a lot of annoyance and even anger, which does escape for those who try to be better. It’s an ongoing fight and especially hard to do and have a healthy mental attitude when you fail to follow your own standard.

Jean in my eyes is the kind to follow a different principle: “Treat others how you want to be treated” and to “fight for those who can’t fight for themselves”. That’s how I interpret her speech to Onslaught anyways and why I think she is seen as a saintly figure in the X-Men and perfect even to Emma Frost. No one aside from very few people on this entire planet are following this kind of mindset and it is difficult as hell to do so in practice because you are basically fighting cultural, societal, and class views. And Jean has a habit of doing it with a flaring passion instead of a meek stance.





The stance of “Jean is perfect” shows either how well Jean hides her struggles or how ignorant people like Emma Frost is to the struggles of following such a high standard. And the biggest hurdles is when Jean is hearing the thoughts of selfish people and taking pleasure in others suffering while trying to maintain that moral stance with a good attitude. So she will get angry and tell others off or worse.



She has a fiery temper, but she tries to be better. That is why she is so compelling. She cares deeply about other people so much and is intensely private about her own struggles. Ergo the image of perfection to those who don’t know her.

[Jeanspryde]

Duggan has been decent with demonstrating her empathetic and kind side to her personality but he definitely lacks the firery and passionate aspect that Jean represents. And before you mention her confronting Nightmare it wasn’t all that.

[PyroFN]

I think this development you're talking about is Sync (sarcasm) . Duggan wrote Sync very well. With Jean he put a few action scenes, changed the costume after several edits and a final scene (after 12) good but ambiguous.
"ah but it's a team and he should share his time with everyone"
Rogue, X 23 and Polaria super well developed

By that logic, he should put more time into Rogue, X-23, and Polaris before Jean because of them being so under-developed. It’s not a matter of Jean only getting time. It’s a matter of who takes priority based on the way Duggan writes.

That’s the whole issue with Duggan’s (and frankly, most X-writers like Percy, Hickman, and Rosenberg) writing. He gives individual time to characters, like one-shots in each issue, rather than saving those kinds of stories for big events style arcs. I think issue 11 & 12 were the first time Duggan did two plots in the same issue where the characters had their own goals and development. It’s limiting, but it’s the reality.

*does a salute because poor Sunfire was once more forgotten*

Duggan has been decent with demonstrating her empathetic and kind side to her personality but he definitely lacks the firery and passionate aspect that Jean represents. And before you mention her confronting Nightmare it wasn’t all that.

Decent? What problems are there with his portrayal of her kindness and compassion?

As far as the Nightmare thing, you are entitled to your opinion. Needless to say, I don’t know any meek person who threatens to kill someone or snaps another persons hand without some sort of backbone to do that. It is not easy standing up for yourself.

Needless to say, it’s not perfect. Tank was right about there being moments Duggan could have capitalized on Jean’s temper, like when she was silent to Laura’s remark. I am not agreeing about Jean needing to yell at everyone by any means (unless they do something completely atrocious), but some bite to Jean’s remarks like she is with Emma could be at least a good hint at her displeasure of the situation. Jean is a mature young woman with control over her emotions normally, so the explosive moments should be saved for the especially dramatically tense moments, but losing one’s patience can come in more forms than just arguing with someone.

I don’t know what plans Duggan or Jordan scrapped for the stories he told or if he legitimately has trouble focusing on more than one character, but there is definitely improvement Duggan could use in his portrayal of Jean. Luckily for him, he has a chance to show more of Jean beyond the Gala, so it’s not entirely accurate to say his Jean is set in stone as this bland. Not until he is really done using Jean.

[jwatson]

I'm just going to keep it real. This has been a good era for jean so far but it has not been memorable in that no new ground has been tread with her. This whole era has been a getting to know jean in some ways but most xfans know jean and it's been dragged out more than any of the other character "reintroductions."

I also personally feel it was a mistake to take jean off the council because though she didn't do much she lost information an interested writer could have her react too. I also feel she lost her seat because immortal was in the planning and she was not one wanted on the council, jmho. I think jean would have found a way to get her voice across and persuade the council or perhaps take personal action on things she felt strongly about but stepping down I feel sort of gusted the impact jean could and should have overall and that is part of the reason I rather storm there as window dressing then stepping down. That and I'm not a fan of a character having to sacrifice seats when the bigger story would be getting there viewpoint and why through to the council and the people and it would have been cool to have jean as a sort of advocate for the xmen and what they do as oppose to directly on the team. But I'm talking mainly in terms of overall importance and potential for growth. Xmen is a step back but I enjoyed it. Polaris should have been co lead and jean liaison that could have still stepped in in the scenes where she shined in the book

[Devaishwarya]

I'm glad Jean left the QC and her reason for doing...to go out into the world and actually, physically do some much needed good is very much her. I don't think she has the patience to put up with fools like Sinister or playing at diplomacy so as to not ruffle feathers. When she left, she rightly read them for filth.

Apart from that the only writer interested in QC shenanigans is Gillen whose current pets are Sinister and Destiny in a talky-talky-very little action book...most likely if she had stayed on she would not have been given anything of note to do and her detractors would still be crying about "lack of agency, no voice blahblahblah" and be relegated to third fiddle behind the main plot drivers. And while they may not like it or appreciate it, in Duggan's X-Men she has a voice and she does stuff.

[jwatson]

She's an omega level telepath. Patience and meditation is kind of her trade. I honestly believe her seat was given up because of who Gillen wanted on IMX more so than story. It was done well and in a yas girl moment but i think even then i remember having my reservations. It makes no sense she would have to step away as a council member but Scott didn't as a general. I would argue he would be more beholden to the code of the council than a member. Also as we have seen, many council member go against the grain or do unsanticioned things ala sinsiter so why Jean needed to "pay a price" for her beliefs never made sense to me. Even now Emma in a way is the sponsor of the Marauders and i don't see why Jean could occupy that role for the xmen and be the liason to the heros. I feel gillien is trying to make up for it by having her play such a prominent role here but in truth it should have been her place and spot on the council. She could have still lived at the treehouse etc as Storm lives on Arakko and really carved out her place as the emissary on earth.

[Devaishwarya]

But the writers, except for Duggan clearly had other plans and other stories to tell, that do not involve her.

[CapCyke]

She's an omega level telepath. Patience and meditation is kind of her trade. I honestly believe her seat was given up because of who Gillen wanted on IMX more so than story. It was done well and in a yas girl moment but i think even then i remember having my reservations. It makes no sense she would have to step away as a council member but Scott didn't as a general. I would argue he would be more beholden to the code of the council than a member. Also as we have seen, many council member go against the grain or do unsanticioned things ala sinsiter so why Jean needed to "pay a price" for her beliefs never made sense to me. Even now Emma in a way is the sponsor of the Marauders and i don't see why Jean could occupy that role for the xmen and be the liason to the heros. I feel gillien is trying to make up for it by having her play such a prominent role here but in truth it should have been her place and spot on the council. She could have still lived at the treehouse etc as Storm lives on Arakko and really carved out her place as the emissary on earth.

I can understand that the choice of not having Jean be a member of leaders of Krakoa is frustrating, but I don't see anything illogical, it's even quite coherent. Her choice seems to be more ideological than just the desire to play hero with her husband. After her eviction, she has the choice to come back and decides not to. For me, that ended her questionable "eviction" during X of Sword.

It seems pretty clear to me that the plan behind her leaving to form the X-Men was for her and Scott to be some sort of a counter-force independent of the Council that would have a different way of operating. A more heroic way. So it doesn't make sense that she's still part of it.

[Devaishwarya]

I can understand that the choice of not having Jean be a member of leaders of Krakoa is frustrating, but I don't see anything illogical, it's even quite coherent. Her choice seems to be more ideological than just the desire to play hero with her husband. After her eviction, she has the choice to come back and decides not to. For me, that ended her questionable "eviction" during X of Sword.

It seems pretty clear to me that the plan behind her leaving to form the X-Men was for her and Scott to be some sort of a counter-force independent of the Council that would have a different way of operating. A more heroic way. So it doesn't make sense that she's still part of it.

Exactatiously. And if that's not quintessentially Jean then I don't know what is.

[Gnostic]

I like all the X-Men references in this show.

[Exodus]

I can understand that the choice of not having Jean be a member of leaders of Krakoa is frustrating, but I don't see anything illogical, it's even quite coherent. Her choice seems to be more ideological than just the desire to play hero with her husband. After her eviction, she has the choice to come back and decides not to. For me, that ended her questionable "eviction" during X of Sword.

It seems pretty clear to me that the plan behind her leaving to form the X-Men was for her and Scott to be some sort of a counter-force independent of the Council that would have a different way of operating. A more heroic way. So it doesn't make sense that she's still part of it.

I agree. I also think the X-Men are more than about "old-school super-heroics". It is also about keeping Xavier's crucial idea about finding a way for co-existance with humanity alive. The X-Men are about finding a way to remain in coalition with "baseline humanity". Gerry Duggan wrote a lot of quiet and tender scenes where the X-Men just casually hang out with humans. I think Cyclops and Jean have always been Xavier's most trusted students in away. Even when Xavier now departs from his own principal teachings, Scott and Jean hold the idealogical line and keep Xavier's dream alive. This is also very much who Jean really is for me. "Let's find a way to work together but I won't take any of your sexist and/or anti-mutant shit."

The X-Men's idea is very much in line with Barbara Smith and the Combahee River Collective's statement of the 1970s what "Identity Politics" has meant to be by them (before the term has been taken away from them and made something entirely else). It is very much about always finding a way to work in coalition without accepting forms of intersectional marginality within social justice movements.

Krakoa is somehow the "safe space" but the X-Men are a way to continue the important work to work in coalition with the world...I think Krakoa needs both to function. I'm looking forward to season two of Duggan's X-Men. I just hope the X-Men will continue to be a confrontational voice with the council.

p.s. I somehow wished Duggan would read this. lol ;-) because as a fanboy I only want writers to write my own fan fictions. ;-)

[jwatson]

I agree. I also think the X-Men are more than about "old-school super-heroics". It is also about keeping Xavier's crucial idea about finding a way for co-existance with humanity alive. The X-Men are about finding a way to remain in coalition with "baseline humanity". Gerry Duggan wrote a lot of quiet and tender scenes where the X-Men just casually hang out with humans. I think Cyclops and Jean have always been Xavier's most trusted students in away. Even when Xavier now departs from his own principal teachings, Scott and Jean hold the idealogical line and keep Xavier's dream alive. This is also very much who Jean really is for me. "Let's find a way to work together but I won't take any of your sexist and/or anti-mutant shit."

The X-Men's idea is very much in line with Barbara Smith and the Combahee River Collective's statement of the 1970s what "Identity Politics" has meant to be by them (before the term has been taken away from them and made something entirely else). It is very much about always finding a way to work in coalition without accepting forms of intersectional marginality within social justice movements.

Krakoa is somehow the "safe space" but the X-Men are a way to continue the important work to work in coalition with the world...I think Krakoa needs both to function. I'm looking forward to season two of Duggan's X-Men. I just hope the X-Men will continue to be a confrontational voice with the council.

p.s. I somehow wished Duggan would read this. lol ;-) because as a fanboy I only want writes to write my own fan fictions. ;-)

So jean had to walk away from power to find her voice? Well okay. Because no one on krakoa is really listening now
I don't mind her story I'm just asking the reason she had to step away to be heard but then you have people like Irene, mystique, Exodus and sinister that are getting their voice across and still doing what they want. I don't think she had to leave one to create the other but it is what it is. If most jean fans happy with that cool but it definitely to ook story away from jean imo.

There is less conflict between jean and being on the council and xmen and hope being on the council and having resurrections as her thing. But at least I guess it absolves jean from any choices the council make.