Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[PyroFN]

Here is my take. The Jean feat in the X-men Unlimited issue stands. Sure there was that time in Morrison's run where Jean had a mask/space suit but I don't think that invalidates the other feat. My reasoning is look at the scans posted with Magneto in space. He has a helmet. There have been other times where Magneto didn't need it while in space. Same with Storm. I recall some Storm fans were mad that she had a helmet on when she could have used her powers to allow her to breath on Mars.

I mean, Daedra wasn’t exactly saying her old feats are invalidated. More like Marvel isn’t recognizing it for Jean in this era. It’s semi-fair in the sense that we probably won’t be getting Jean traveling in space, which is something Jean has done at least twice in her history, (for anyone forgetting what that other time was)



but I think you are right that it’s not solely isolated to just Jean. Even though Magneto is classified as the most powerful he has ever been by the very definition of what an omega is, his feats rarely reflect anything his Classic appearances were already capable of. I think Tank’s reservation about Jean being portrayed as incapable compared to the other Omega’s is a little more valid, given that their bigger showings are seen as something that they are capable of naturally, whereas Jean is being shown pushing herself.

I personally don’t see this as a problem because Jean has always been classified as a character who hesitates to push her limits compared to other characters. Even when she says she is gonna stop holding back or something isn’t holding her back anymore, her morals have not changed, so she still reigns it in on the eccentric displays compared to other Omegas who relish in their powers. Do I want it to go away? Yes and no. I don’t want her to lose her reservations about her capabilities, whether it’s her insecurity about how capable she is or if she is insecure because she knows she is capable of it and doesn’t want to get caught up in the range of power she now has. But I do want some things to be easier for her than they used to for her back in the 90’s. New X-Men to current day is fair game, since they are more recent (even if they are a decade old), but some semblance of growth is nice to show that she is starting to tap into her omega powers. A balance.

In comics there will always be some inconsistencies. That is a given in the medium. There is no need to invalidate some of Jean's feats. It is kind of strange that we do this. Storm fans would never lol

I understand. I think the issue is that Storm doesn’t have as much stiff competition or is compared as much as other characters are to Jean. It’s usually to Iceman, Magneto, or Thor who people argue over who is the more powerful characters, whereas, when it comes to Jean, people constantly compare her to Xavier, Nate Grey, Cable, Rachel, Emma Frost (yes, I’ve encountered this too), Cassandra Nova, Shadow King, Exodus, and Moondragon. Jean being the most powerful telepath is definitely a new concept for her without Phoenix being involved, so it’s a harder fight. Add in peoples prejudgments of Jean in a similar way they do to Superman and you get people who just don’t get Jean.

In some ways, I do think Jean fans do have to go through more than most characters. Like, people will either jump on how interesting Emma or Xavier are or how powerful Nate Grey is usually, but Jean’s popularity had a steady growth over the years and a positive attitude towards Jean with writers is also a recent thing (not counting Claremont, who usually fights harder for his characters than most writers), with a sudden surge somehow around the time she was dead. I think that attitude from both Marvel in the past and other fandoms has worn the Jean fans.

Also, the spores feat was a big one. I read that fungal spores can be microscopic and it was also said that she was moving more objects that she had ever moved before. So yeah it was an impressive stunt for sure. It doesn't have to be overly flashy to still be a good moment or an interesting use of her powers.

Yup. Debatably as good, if not better, than her nanite bomb feat in the 90’s. There were millions in Scott’s body and they are technically smaller than spores in size, but by general knowledge of how much spores are emitted from fungi, we already get the gist that in one cycle, Jean already had to grab more than what the nanites produced.

I know we've been hurt for years over how Jean has been treated, but we are in good times and I think they are going to get even better. Jean is getting attention and focus in a major crossover and she's a major character in Duggan's book.

I do think the thread here does have a bad habit of being overly-cynical. I understand why they are, but I don’t necessarily excuse it or agree it is necessary to not be let down. I don’t want them fawning over something they don’t believe is all that great, but at the same time, I don’t see a lack of dramatic activity from Jean now is a sign things will absolutely get worse over time. Not yet anyways.

This is again where I say balance is necessary.

[Daedra]

Here is my take. The Jean feat in the X-men Unlimited issue stands. Sure there was that time in Morrison's run where Jean had a mask/space suit but I don't think that invalidates the other feat. My reasoning is look at the scans posted with Magneto in space. He has a helmet. There have been other times where Magneto didn't need it while in space. Same with Storm. I recall some Storm fans were mad that she had a helmet on when she could have used her powers to allow her to breath on Mars.

In comics there will always be some inconsistencies. That is a given in the medium. There is no need to invalidate some of Jean's feats. It is kind of strange that we do this. Storm fans would never lol

Also, the spores feat was a big one. I read that fungal spores can be microscopic and it was also said that she was moving more objects that she had ever moved before. So yeah it was an impressive stunt for sure. It doesn't have to be overly flashy to still be a good moment or an interesting use of her powers.

I know we've been hurt for years over how Jean has been treated, but we are in good times and I think they are going to get even better. Jean is getting attention and focus in a major crossover and she's a major character in Duggan's book.

You make some valid points but while Jean can certainly protect herself from the rigors of space using tk for a limited time the issue here is her ability to make the journey between the sun and planet earth all on her own, do people really think she could leave earth, take a stroll around the sun and come back? I’m not even sure marvel would let her reach low orbit or make a trip to the moon, I mean it would be fun to see her do it but I can’t fathom current marvel ever putting it in print.

Another issue I have is while people like magneto or Storm can achieve global feats displaying astonishing range and even more fantastic reach with their powers, jean’s tk has never been allowed to run wild on a planetary scale and now that I think of it we just have examples of long distance communication and many micro-scale feats of strength but nothing on the macro front, there was some tp stuff during the hiatus in the wolverine mini about erasing memories but nothing more. I would love for once to see Jean flexing her psionic muscle on a world wide level.

[Tank]

You make some valid points but while Jean can certainly protect herself from the rigors of space using tk for a limited time the issue here is her ability to make the journey between the sun and planet earth all on her own, do people really think she could leave earth, take a stroll around the sun and come back? I’m not even sure marvel would let her reach low orbit or make a trip to the moon, I mean it would be fun to see her do it but I can’t fathom current marvel ever putting it in print.

Another issue I have is while people like magneto or Storm can achieve global feats displaying astonishing range and even more fantastic reach with their powers, jean’s tk has never been allowed to run wild on a planetary scale and now that I think of it we just have examples of long distance communication and many micro-scale feats of strength but nothing on the macro front, there was some tp stuff during the hiatus in the wolverine mini about erasing memories but nothing more. I would love for once to see Jean flexing her psionic muscle on a world wide level.

Well to be fair in the X Lives of Wolverine mini Jean wasn't just erasing memories, she was erasing the memories of EVERYONE in a 1 mile radius temporally in various points in the PAST from wherever Wolverine had been. That is impressive and shows not only range, but her reach can affect the past as well.

Jean subconsciously projected various illusions + tk and various tk effects in Phoenix Resurrection across the planet at the same time. These psionic creations were probably a combination of tk/tp as they had physical affects that impacted the environment as well and were able to battle whole teams of X-Men.

Similarly it was made a big deal that Xavier was able to catch Xandra's death scream, but Jean was able to catch Nate's cries for help and communicate with him while he was in Otherworld, a completely different dimension. So Jean has her fair of global feats.... I just hate that she usually has to be undermined afterwards.

[Tank]

Here is my take. The Jean feat in the X-men Unlimited issue stands. Sure there was that time in Morrison's run where Jean had a mask/space suit but I don't think that invalidates the other feat. My reasoning is look at the scans posted with Magneto in space. He has a helmet. There have been other times where Magneto didn't need it while in space. Same with Storm. I recall some Storm fans were mad that she had a helmet on when she could have used her powers to allow her to breath on Mars.

In comics there will always be some inconsistencies. That is a given in the medium. There is no need to invalidate some of Jean's feats. It is kind of strange that we do this. Storm fans would never lol

Also, the spores feat was a big one. I read that fungal spores can be microscopic and it was also said that she was moving more objects that she had ever moved before. So yeah it was an impressive stunt for sure. It doesn't have to be overly flashy to still be a good moment or an interesting use of her powers.

I know we've been hurt for years over how Jean has been treated, but we are in good times and I think they are going to get even better. Jean is getting attention and focus in a major crossover and she's a major character in Duggan's book.

I agree with your take. Inconsistencies in power level vary not only from writer to writer, but sometimes with the same writer as well. It doesn't change the fact Jean has flown thru hyperspace and shielded herself from Binary, a white star, and a huge energy blast. One thing to note is not everyone is at their peak every single day. Same can be said for mutants with can explain away various inconsistencies. I take a step further and look for in story reasons.

For the Morrison story, Jean did not put a tk shield in time and her and Wolverine were hit by the blast that destroyed a huge chuck of asteroid M. Wolverine has a healing factor, Jean does not. So she was already impaired/damaged. Additionally, from a narrative standpoint Jean's phoenix consciousness had to be fully released for her to understand her phoenix work. She had to die. There were various hints in the book about this. Which is why it's not out of the question that her phoenix self was also limiting her. So there only choice was for Wolverine to stab her and fully unleash the phoenix conciousness. It's the same thing when she died 2 issues later via a Planetry EMP despite just being in the sun and can block electromagnestism. "I dont know how long they will let me stay..." etc

For the instance with Orchis...not only was Jean again caught in a blast, but she was also busy connecting the team and then transferring all the information they were getting back to earth from the sun. So it's not like it's a short distance. And even then if a writer wanted, I can totally see Orchis Jean putting herself in stasis and is "alive" somewhere out there.

[Daedra]

Well to be fair in the X Lives of Wolverine mini Jean wasn't just erasing memories, she was erasing the memories of EVERYONE in a 1 mile radius temporally in various points in the PAST from wherever Wolverine had been. That is impressive and shows not only range, but her reach can affect the past as well.

Jean subconsciously projected various illusions + tk and various tk effects in Phoenix Resurrection across the planet at the same time. These psionic creations were probably a combination of tk/tp as they had physical affects that impacted the environment as well and were able to battle whole teams of X-Men.

Similarly it was made a big deal that Xavier was able to catch Xandra's death scream, but Jean was able to catch Nate's cries for help and communicate with him while he was in Otherworld, a completely different dimension. So Jean has her fair of global feats.... I just hate that she usually has to be undermined afterwards.

Phoenix resurrection had the pf involved and being a substitute for mobile services were’t exactly the feats I was looking for, Once upon a time people (both friends and enemies) used to look at Jean with a modicum of fear and awe due to the possibility that she could go dark phoenix, before the bastardization of the phoenix force the main idea was always that Jean Grey = dark phoenix, it was her wildest side and gave her a kind of dangerous vibe but nowadays anyone can be phoenix and anyone can be dark phoenix, it no longer belongs to her, its just a side effect of a cosmic parasite that goes around looking for hosts, I really hate this, I think Jean figure ended up narratively impoverished….. just another example of marvel slowly eating away and corroding her mythos.

[Tank]

Phoenix resurrection had the pf involved and being a substitute for mobile services were’t exactly the feats I was looking for, Once upon a time people (both friends and enemies) used to look at Jean with a modicum of fear and awe due to the possibility that she could go dark phoenix, before the bastardization of the phoenix force the main idea was always that Jean Grey = dark phoenix, it was her wildest side and gave her a kind of dangerous vibe but nowadays anyone can be phoenix and anyone can be dark phoenix, it no longer belongs to her, its just a side effect of a cosmic parasite that goes around looking for hosts, I really hate this, I think Jean figure ended up narratively impoverished….. just another example of marvel slowly eating away and corroding her mythos.

Phoenix resurrection had the phoenix trying to keep Jean hidden/trapped in that dream world. Her subconscious trying to escape was what caused the various projections + tk on around the world. It was proposed by Beast and confirmed by the writer it was Jean’s doing not the phoenix.

Also makes sense narratively because why would the phoenix keep Jean trapped in that egg and then purposely alert the xmen via those projections to find her? Nope, it was Jean’s way of getting help and breaking free.

How is wiping people’s memories from various distances and within a radius in the PAST equate to being a substitute for a mobile device? You can downplay her other feats as being a glorified mobile device in the case of tHe connection and feeding of information to Krakoa during Orchis or the communication with Nate in otherworld, but her planetary projections that had tk mixed in and mind wiping in the past is pretty damn op.

And while I agree her story and mythos was eroded by handing the phoenix to everyone and denying her birth right, it has no bearing on what she has done otherwise.

I too wish for a less passive Jean that is full of fire again. She should be a furnace if violent emotions underneath the calm surface. She should instill fear, but not when they write her like a carebear. But downplaying some of her feats as just being a mobile device is a huge disservice to the character whether you agree with her characterization or not.

[Daedra]

Phoenix resurrection had the phoenix trying to keep Jean hidden/trapped in that dream world. Her subconscious trying to escape was what caused the various projections + tk on around the world. It was proposed by Beast and confirmed by the writer it was Jean’s doing not the phoenix.

Also makes sense narratively because why would the phoenix keep Jean trapped in that egg and then purposely alert the xmen via those projections to find her? Nope, it was Jean’s way if getting help and breaking free.

How is wiping people’s memories from various distances and within a radius in the PAST equate to being a substitute for a mobile device? You can downplay her other feats as being a glorified mobile device in the case of tHe connection and feeding of information to Krakoa during Orchis or the communication with Nate in otherworld, but her planetary projections that had tk mixed in and mind wiping in the past is pretty damn op.

And while I agree her story and mythos was eroded by handing the phoenix to everyone and denying her birth right, it has no bearing on what she has done otherwise. I too wish for a less passive Jean that is full of fire again. She should instill fear, but not when they write her like a carebear.

1 mile is not planetary scale
Storm & magneto can affect the whole planet, their range can spawn entire continents
Fighting against the phoenix while connected to it makes the water even murkier
Again I was looking for displays of tk on a wide world scale

[Tank]

1 mile is not planetary scale
Storm & magneto can affect the whole planet, their range can spawn entire continents
Fighting against the phoenix while connected to it makes the water even murkier
Again I was looking for displays of tk on a wide world scale

Now you’re ignoring the facts to fit your narrative. Seriously Jean is sitting in the present day on Krakoa and Wolverine is in the past and she is wiping memories of everyone within a 1 mile radius of where he is. He was all over the world in xlives of wolverine as it was various points in history. She was doing it from basically the other side of the planet from the future. I dont know how you dont find that impressive. Her range is planetary. Hell we have seen her reach Mars with her tp.

Once again Jean projected her tp and tk to on a planetary scale considering they were all over the planet while she was in one spot. One of the projections was even on the moon. And no the phoenix wasnt involved as a) it was trying to bond with her again b) why would it purposely do things that will free Jean which it didnt want c) the writer confirmed it was Jean’s doing. I dont know what more confirmation you need if it’s supported by the story and the writer outright tells you.

Anyways, I agree with you that her characterization could be better because she is too passive and meek. But purposely downplaying things she has done because you dont like her characterization is all sorts of wrong. But whatever makes you happy!

Though despite everything she has done, if all you see is a mobile walking device I think that’s more of a you problem and not a Jean problem.

[Daedra]

Now you’re ignoring the facts to fit your narrative. Seriously Jean is sitting in the present day on Krakoa and Wolverine is in the past and she is wiping memories of everyone within a 1 mile radius of where he is. He was all over the world in xlives of wolverine as it was various points in history. She was doing it from basically the other side of the planet from the future. I dont know how you dont find that impressive. Her range is planetary. Hell we have seen her reach Mars with her tp.

Once again Jean projected her tp and tk to on a planetary scale considering they were all over the planet while she was in one spot. One of the projections was even on the moon. And no the phoenix wasnt involved as a) it was trying to bond with her again b) why would it purposely do things that will free Jean which it didnt want c) the writer confirmed it was Jean’s doing. I dont know what more confirmation you need if it’s supported by the story and the writer outright tells you.

Anyways, I agree with you that her characterization could be better because she is too passive and meek. But purposely downplaying things she has done because you dont like her characterization is all sorts of wrong. But whatever makes you happy!

Though despite everything she has done, if all you see is a mobile walking device I think that’s more of a you problem and not a Jean problem.

I just disagree with you, I have no narrative to push, I’m a reader and a fan just like everyone here, I’m merely expressing my impressions and outtakes so please lets not start with the comments taking a personal turn, I don’t think it adds anything of value to the conversation

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I mean, Daedra wasn’t exactly saying her old feats are invalidated. More like Marvel isn’t recognizing it for Jean in this era. It’s semi-fair in the sense that we probably won’t be getting Jean traveling in space, which is something Jean has done at least twice in her history, (for anyone forgetting what that other time was)

people who just don’t get Jean.

The bolds are the same thing. Current canon is the only canon.

Whether or not Daedra is saying it, Marvel is.

[Del torro]

Morrisons portrayal of tk is weird.
He's the same guy that had her slowing down molecules to protect herself and Logan when they were right next to the sun.

To me it's not really a big deal because different writers have their own interpretation of characters. It's why one writer will use Mr Sinister and make him seem like a complete joke, while others will use him adn show him as a considerable threat. Some writers don't consider Jean able to do anything impressive with her tk, while some do and have shown her to do great stuff with it. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, Claremont had the weakest miniskirt Jean grey shielding from a solar flare for 30 minutes, while Hickman had adult Jean grey unable to do anything against sentinels.

For planetary psionic stuff, I think Jean has done a lot of that
-hearing the pain, and anguish and confusion all over the world in Xmen red 1
-sending a message to all xmen around the world in Xmen disassembled
-making nate grey feel the pain he caused all around the world in disassembled
-scanning for Xavier around the world in seagle and Kelly's run
-creating a hive mind with all the mutants on earth and on the peak near Mars in the last hellfire gala
-gathering psychic energy from a planet of aliens to fight galactus
-gathering psychic energy from a planet of aliens to fight Celestials
-draining the Supreme intelligence, a being made of 10 billion minds
-scanning the planet to find someone from groots past
-creating psychic constructs/explosions of her memories around the world, on the moon and in the sky (sun?) in Phoenix resurrection. And her projections took out/overwhelmed other planetary telepaths like Rachel, Cerebro amped Cable and Psylocke

[Del torro]

I agree with your take. Inconsistencies in power level vary not only from writer to writer, but sometimes with the same writer as well. It doesn't change the fact Jean has flown thru hyperspace and shielded herself from Binary, a white star, and a huge energy blast. One thing to note is not everyone is at their peak every single day. Same can be said for mutants with can explain away various inconsistencies. I take a step further and look for in story reasons.

For the Morrison story, Jean did not put a tk shield in time and her and Wolverine were hit by the blast that destroyed a huge chuck of asteroid M. Wolverine has a healing factor, Jean does not. So she was already impaired/damaged. Additionally, from a narrative standpoint Jean's phoenix consciousness had to be fully released for her to understand her phoenix work. She had to die. There were various hints in the book about this. Which is why it's not out of the question that her phoenix self was also limiting her. So there only choice was for Wolverine to stab her and fully unleash the phoenix conciousness. It's the same thing when she died 2 issues later via a Planetry EMP despite just being in the sun and can block electromagnestism. "I dont know how long they will let me stay..." etc

For the instance with Orchis...not only was Jean again caught in a blast, but she was also busy connecting the team and then transferring all the information they were getting back to earth from the sun. So it's not like it's a short distance. And even then if a writer wanted, I can totally see Orchis Jean putting herself in stasis and is "alive" somewhere out there.

Imagine if the the Resurrection Protocols get taken offline and Jean somehow does.

So instead of being resurrected, she transfers her consciousness to the Jean body being kept in stasis at the orchis hideout and breaks out.

Extra points if they've been dissecting her body to study her powers. So she's in a state where she's pissed off, but can't control or restrain her powers so she wrecks house

(then they probably recapture her after she's caused a bit Havok, due to the unstable body. But only after she's sent a psychic SOS to Krakoa, and now the Xmen are flying in for a rescue)

[WallStreeter]

The bolds are the same thing. Current canon is the only canon.

Whether or not Daedra is saying it, Marvel is.

Those feats are being referenced now as she shows the same power levels. Taming out s huge space station of spores, taking down Nightmare, and going up against Eternals. Be honest. If you don’t like the books, just say so.

[WallStreeter]

I mean, Daedra wasn’t exactly saying her old feats are invalidated. More like Marvel isn’t recognizing it for Jean in this era. It’s semi-fair in the sense that we probably won’t be getting Jean traveling in space, which is something Jean has done at least twice in her history, (for anyone forgetting what that other time was)



but I think you are right that it’s not solely isolated to just Jean. Even though Magneto is classified as the most powerful he has ever been by the very definition of what an omega is, his feats rarely reflect anything his Classic appearances were already capable of. I think Tank’s reservation about Jean being portrayed as incapable compared to the other Omega’s is a little more valid, given that their bigger showings are seen as something that they are capable of naturally, whereas Jean is being shown pushing herself.




I do think the thread here does have a bad habit of being overly-cynical. I understand why they are, but I don’t necessarily excuse it or agree it is necessary to not be let down. I don’t want them fawning over something they don’t believe is all that great, but at the same time, I don’t see a lack of dramatic activity from Jean now is a sign things will absolutely get worse over time. Not yet anyways.

This is again where I say balance is necessary.

It’s a couple of things. Until recently fans had almost nothing to talk about concerning Jean because wasn’t doing anything of note. So all they could talk about is last feats. I’d say the first notable thing she did was beat Nightmare.

Now if you pay attention to how Marcel develops storylines, clearly Jean beating Nightmare was likely to be followed up. That was the writer establishing how he wants to use Jean. Not past writers. How Duggan himself is going to use her snd we already see as a huge role in the Eternals crossover.

The part is perhaps the enemy of people’s happiness. Getting stuck in the past, over what last writers have done, for books that have already been published and that no one can change is silly. Now if you have legit compels out how the character is used, voice them as collectively fans do have some influence and from what is now happening to Jean I’d say Marvel did listen to her fans.

[Krakoa]

I mean, Daedra wasn’t exactly saying her old feats are invalidated. More like Marvel isn’t recognizing it for Jean in this era. It’s semi-fair in the sense that we probably won’t be getting Jean traveling in space, which is something Jean has done at least twice in her history, (for anyone forgetting what that other time was)

To be fair, this is explicitly said to be something she's not sure she can hold for long like right before this and Scott is super worried about it, and she also has Skids' forcefield to help her on reentry.

I really never care that much about power levels to be honest. Claremont X-Men is full of things like characters randomly getting knocked out (see: Phoenix Jean like every issue). As long as the character is being served well does it really matter that much?