Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Starchilde]

@Mercury I love the tree of life analogy. Is it made in that issue where Jean goes to heal the Crystal M'kaaran too and then she remembers it again as the Dark Phoenix.

I started to read about the Tree of Life thanks to Evangelion lol, and I noted that the Crown is also referred as the sefirot that is beyond human comprehension. And I always wondered if that was also Morrison's itention whe he used "The Crown"/"White Phoenix of the Crown" for Jean in the end of his run.

[Mercury]

@Mercury I love the tree of life analogy. Is it made in that issue where Jean goes to heal the Crystal M'kaaran too and then she remembers it again as the Dark Phoenix.

I started to read about the Tree of Life thanks to Evangelion lol, and I noted that the Crown is also referred as the sefirot that is beyond human comprehension. And I always wondered if that was also Morrison's itention whe he used "The Crown"/"White Phoenix of the Crown" for Jean in the end of his run.

It is an interesting analogy. As for Morrison, it could be!

[Mercury]

Was reminded of these moments and felt like sharing them. So good.

[Mercury]

I'm up way past my bedtime, but I read something as thought-provoking and exquisitely beautiful as this by Kieron Gillen and am amazed all over again that he’s writing an issue centered on Jean. Like…

[Lukmendes]

You know I love you, so stop fishing.

Not fishing, just finding the similarities of the situations amusing .

If they give Jean back the ”pink power mode” I am fine with Hope being Phoenix. But it will feel a bit weird, and from a marketing point of view it is such a strange move not to have the most known Phoenix be … well … be Phoenix.

Specially considering how much Marvel makes stuff go back to normal even if it makes no sense (Eddie Brock became Venom again while saying he always missed the Venom symbiote, when previous stories showed him afraid, or just not interested with bonding with th symbiote again).

Exactly. Hence, I would really know why? They must talk about it. Why is it important for them to disassociate Jean Grey from Phoenix?

is it just a marketing thing, so they can use several Phoenix-powered Heros on variant covers (similar to the symbionts)?

I doubt it's a marketing thing for covers considering those already don't care about logic or even what happens in the comics themselves, they could give the Phoenix back to Jean and still make variant covers where Blob has the Phoenix just because.

The on-off merged-then-separated status is messy. Just let her use the friggin' pink mode that she already has. Why haven't we seen it so far anyway? I hope she uses it in the current saga, she HAS to.

Considering that Gillen has talked about Jean being one of the six main characters, I do wonder if she'll be the one to face Uranos.

He's apparently more powerful than Thanos (Who's has some ridiculous feats), and has a telepathy strong enough that all of the other Eternals combined couldn't break through it (And they tried for like 100 years), pink form is how I see her managing to keep up with him, maybe even defeat him, but she could also show how much above her telepathy is compared to the other Eternals and actually hurt him with her own too, or do both.

That is assuming he leaves that jail again though, I think he most likely will, but that one hour limit to be released is worth keeping in mind, and it could become a plot point to not let him be released 'cause he's too strong, or find a way to teleport him back, even if it'd be silly to say Krakoa as a whole can't beat him lol.

[Exodus]

I'm up way past my bedtime, but I read something as thought-provoking and exquisitely beautiful as this by Kieron Gillen and am amazed all over again that he’s writing an issue centered on Jean. Like…

are the eternals crazy Christians?

[Mercury]

are the eternals crazy Christians?

No.

10char

[Phoenixx9]

Was reminded of these moments and felt like sharing them. So good.

Delicious!

No.

10char

LOL!

I second this no.

[andreikes]

Do you think Gillen will explain about white phoenix of the crown?

[Celestialbodies]

Gillen is going to f*** Jean over so hard about her Phoenix stories.

They always have some character that they think the Phoenix should REALLY be about. Usually some dude.

The thing is I think he's going to do great by her but I definitely feel like this is going to be yet another story to separate Jean from the PF, and make way for the story he wants to tell with Hope and Exodus!

And Hickman and Gillen. And essentially Greg Pak and Matthew Rosenberg too.

'

True!

I really would like to have an interview where Marvel authors debate why it is important that EVERYBODY is a Phoenix host but not Jean Grey. Why? I really wonder what their reasoning are. There must be a reason.

I think Hope will be Phoenix in the future. Exodus worshipping her and be her first apostle.

I genuinely do not care about Jean reconnecting with the PF, HOWEVER it will never NOT bother me how casual Marvel is about using themes, mantles, or relationships that should be important to Jean and forcibly attaching them to other characters. Personally, I'm going to always call it out, whether I think Jean and Phoenix are beneficial to one or not, because it shows a complete and utter lack of care surrounding her history.


It would be like Laura taking up the Wolverine mantle, and Logan only superficially being involved with themes, stories, or relationships connected to that legacy, same with Captain America, Captain Marvel, or any of the other superhero mantles passed between characters. I could even respect that Marvel refuses to allow Jean to have a healthy relationship with the PF, IF they would simply respect her time. But they want to characterize her as some victim, who was ignorant to the happenings of the PF, then attach it to any and everyone else, all without us ever having a clear idea of what this means for Jean.

For me, its not even the PF, Jean is just always passive in interactions or narrative choices that should be more important to her, didn't we just go through this with the Madelyne and Moira situations?

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Do you think Gillen will explain about white phoenix of the crown?

More like explain it away. I think WPotC implies some level of importance that the anti-stans in editorial do not want her to have. Maybe he establishes it as something inconsequential, like WPotC is a title that rotates every year or something.

The thing is I think he's going to do great by her but I definitely feel like this is going to be yet another story to separate Jean from the PF, and make way for the story he wants to tell with Hope and Exodus!

'

True!



I genuinely do not care about Jean reconnecting with the PF, HOWEVER it will never NOT bother me how casual Marvel is about using themes, mantles, or relationships that should be important to Jean and forcibly attaching them to other characters. Personally, I'm going to always call it out, whether I think Jean and Phoenix are beneficial to one or not, because it shows a complete and utter lack of care surrounding her history.


It would be like Laura taking up the Wolverine mantle, and Logan only superficially being involved with themes, stories, or relationships connected to that legacy, same with Captain America, Captain Marvel, or any of the other superhero mantles passed between characters. I could even respect that Marvel refuses to allow Jean to have a healthy relationship with the PF, IF they would simply respect her time. But they want to characterize her as some victim, who was ignorant to the happenings of the PF, then attach it to any and everyone else, all without us ever having a clear idea of what this means for Jean.

For me, its not even the PF, Jean is just always passive in interactions or narrative choices that should be more important to her, didn't we just go through this with the Madelyne and Moira situations?

Marvel loves situations how Madelyne and Moira were situated. The entire point of removing the Phoenix is to Spartan Kick the redhead down a few pegs lol. Too much pomp, power, and regality for the type of character they want Jean to be.

This reminds me actually. There's another thread about Jean and a certain anchor character in which the topic of Claremont seeing Jean as this sort of eternal figure came up. THAT is exactly what bugs about the Phoenix being with Jean...it makes her something that the lead character of the X-Men isn't, and that simply won't do. I think they would be fine with Jean/Phoenix if they made the lead character cosmic in comparable or more powerful way.

It's just dudes being mad because they gave the lead character's girlfriend Thor-level powers when the lead character isn't as poweful himself. It all comes back to toxic masculinity in the end, if you ask me, but it'll be interesting to see how it gets dressed up, and why we needed points reiterated that Rosenberg already did a touchdown dance about.

[Rift]

Was reminded of these moments and felt like sharing them. So good.

Underappreciated Jean costume tbh

[Saturius]

Underappreciated Jean costume tbh

Truly. One of her best and it barely lasted 12 issues. Criminal. I know this era has essentially abandoned the idea of characters wearing their old costumes but I still held out hope Jean would pop up in it again. But the mini dress prevailed.

[WallStreeter]

More like explain it away. I think WPotC implies some level of importance that the anti-stans in editorial do not want her to have. Maybe he establishes it as something inconsequential, like WPotC is a title that rotates every year or something.



Marvel loves situations how Madelyne and Moira were situated. The entire point of removing the Phoenix is to Spartan Kick the redhead down a few pegs lol. Too much pomp, power, and regality for the type of character they want Jean to be.

This reminds me actually. There's another thread about Jean and a certain anchor character in which the topic of Claremont seeing Jean as this sort of eternal figure came up. THAT is exactly what bugs about the Phoenix being with Jean...it makes her something that the lead character of the X-Men isn't, and that simply won't do. I think they would be fine with Jean/Phoenix if they made the lead character cosmic in comparable or more powerful way.

It's just dudes being mad because they gave the lead character's girlfriend Thor-level powers when the lead character isn't as poweful himself. It all comes back to toxic masculinity in the end, if you ask me, but it'll be interesting to see how it gets dressed up, and why we needed points reiterated that Rosenberg already did a touchdown dance about.

You can call out the dudes by name. It was John Byrne and to a lesser degree Jim Shooter back in the day, and obviously Quesada and more recently Rosenberg.

I don’t want to comment on something I have not read, as not enough info is out for me to say anything about AXE: Phoenix.

Thought we may have more ideas as we see Jean fight the Eternals and how her power manifests. And we have to see what happens when she comes near Echo. Will the Phoenix call out to her or will they completely ignore the connection? Different people here have different ideas on what will happen but until we read those comics or get leaks/spoilers we just don’t know.

[Mercury]

I posted this in the Immortal X-Men thread, but though it could serve as a point of discussion here:



Above: An excerpt from Claremont's interview with The Comics Journal No. 50, October 1979:

Chris Claremont and Dave Cockrum's initial shared intention for Jean was to simply make her Marvel's and the X-Men's first female cosmic superhero equivalent to Thor. Moreover, her transformation into Phoenix entailed Jean "achiev[ing] her full potential as a psi...before finally reforming as Phoenix," i.e., not bonding with a "force." In a sense, they were building on something already established about Jean in X-Men #48 (1968), in which an advanced biosensor-equipped A.I. classifies her as having "infinite mental powers!" Nonetheless, Claremont's eventual decision to turn Phoenix into a force separate from Jean was due to blowback from then editor-in-chief Jim Shooter and other editors—a cosmic X-Woman on par with Thor was simply impermissible—and later artist John Byrne, who took over for Cockrum and had his own diametrically opposed views for Phoenix and the X-Men as a whole. Incidentally, Byrne still considers Phoenix a parasitic entity separate from Jean. At the same time, Claremont views Jean and Phoenix as one and the same and the spark and balance of all omniversal creation.



Above: Top panel: Uncanny X-Men #48 (1968); bottom panel: Uncanny X-Men #125 (1979):

Claremont was understandably angry when Jean was brought back without his input or involvement. Her death had both cost him emotionally and compelled him to grow creatively; it also imbued his work with added gravitas and had an unprecedented effect on readers. (Reportedly, creatives and executives at Marvel received death threats after Jean's death.) Claremont later recalled going home the night his bluff to kill Jean—something he has admitted he suggested out of anger—was accepted by Shooter, sitting down before his typewriter with a bottle of whiskey in hand and torturing himself over killing a character that had become a favorite, if not his favorite. In fact, neither he nor Byrne wanted Jean to die. Still, he had unintentionally shoved the two into a corner, and both the deadline and his heartbreak over annihilating a character he cultivated for greatness loomed. Ultimately, his bluff completed one of comic book history's most iconic, enduring, and shattering stories. Wiping that all away with a retcon that wasn't well-thought-out was insulting and anathema to him.

Both shortly and long after Jean's return, in Classic X-Men backstories centered on her and in series rooted in his personal vision of and for the X-Men mythos, such as X-Men Forever and X-Men: The End, Claremont gradually and then suddenly revealed Jean's central and overarching role in his private plans for the X-Men. He established the White Phoenix, reestablished Jean and Phoenix as one and the same, and even revealed Madelyne Pryor to have always been a missing fragment of Jean's soul, adding credence to Walt and Louise Simonson's claims that "the clone" had always been a "stand in" and "doppelgänger" for Jean. In addition, in Claremont's rewrites of Uncanny X-Men #108, he weaved and underscored a concept throughout the mythos of Phoenix and the X-Men he had only touched upon in the original issue: "The Tree of Life, [which] is a mystical concept within the Kabbalah of Judaism, used to understand the nature of God and the manner in which [God] created the world ex nihilo" (uncannyxmen). More recently, in Uncanny X-Men #140.5 (2021), the official prequel or "prelude" to Days of the Future Past, Claremont leaned into his vision for Jean as the White Phoenix, revealing, once again, that she and Phoenix are one forevermore.



Above: An excerpt from Uncanny X-Men #140.5 (2021) "Prelude to the Future Past" (2021), which Marvel refers to as an "in-continuity issue" and "prequel to Days of the of the Future Past" (source below).
Source: https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...of-future-past

Some fans yearn for this: For current writers and creatives to honor what Claremont originally intended for Jean back in 1975-to-1976 and later established and reestablished for her in the intervening years, including last year (see excerpt above). In fact, writers such as Steven T. Seagle, the legendary Grant Morrison, and others would later echo Claremont's vision in their respective runs and works, reuniting Jean and Phoenix and, in Morrison's case, ignoring the contradictory retcons. However, I'm not so concerned with Jean being reestablished as a cosmic force. Could it be a hoot? Sure. But to fans, even some detractors, and the general public alike, Phoenix will always represent Jean Grey. Instead, I'm of the mindset that Jean and most comic book characters, for that matter, will continue to evolve and change and also revisit and reclaim iconic aspects of their histories and mythologies, perhaps ad infinitum. 'Tis the neverending journey of most iconic comic book heroes and heroines, whose courses are etched in the shape of infinity ∞ by literary gods and demigods but who also manage to chart their own courses in the invisible liminal spaces between panels and pages that draw in and enrapture old and new readers alike, expanding their minds, hearts, and imaginations until, as Jack Kerouac wrote in On the Road, everything "burn[s], burn[s], burn[s] like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww!'"