Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Micabe]

The good news is we are back on the right track, looks like the crisis has come and gone. Incidentally JDW did talk about the x-men ages as well and according to him due to the resurrection protocols people like scott or Jean are around 27 years old (if I am quoting him right.)

Might you have a link to where you read that?

[magenta]

I read the interview as well but I wasn’t able to gather any new insight regarding the “reasons” that led the Jean Grey from x-men red to revert into her marvel girl persona, maybe the upcoming issue centering on her relationship with the phoenix will finally give us a definitive answer.

I thought JDW's answer was pretty definitive. They reverted Jean back to the dress and codename because that was the last version of Jean before Phoenix, i.e. the "Pure" Jean before Phoenix. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to ignore the past 40 years of Jean's history, but JDW is clearly saying that was the goal.

Now, they are claiming that Jean has atoned for Dark Phoenix (because of the Gameworld storyline in X-men) and she can go back to Jean Grey and wear a new costume. Again, this storyline would have worked better if it had come out 40 years ago when Dark Phoenix was Jean's most recent story.

[Daedra]

Might you have a link to where you read that?

The very same interview Exodus linked for us:

https://aiptcomics.com/2022/08/08/x-...ordan-d-white/

AIPT: As we near the end of XMA, an Academy X question. X-Fan Chris G. said with the resurrection protocols, should age really be a deterrent anymore regarding the Academy X characters growing up and having a bigger presence? Previous reasoning was editorial didn’t want to age up the iconic characters. But with resurrection, you could always just keep them 27 the way you like. Just an inquiry and Penny for your thoughts.

Jordan: Well, I mean, yes, as long as we keep killing them on a regular basis, they can.

X-Men Monday #167 - X Me Anything With Jordan D. White
Courtesy of Marvel Comics

No, listen, you’re right. And you know, congratulations, you’ve seen behind the curtain. Yes. This was absolutely part of the thinking. Just one of the many benefits of resurrection is that it does mess with the age problem in a way that is helpful. I know that no matter how much I tell them they’re wrong, there’s a huge segment of the audience that believes Cyclops is like 37 years old. And he’s not, I’m sorry, but don’t worry about it. He’s 27 because of resurrection, right? That’s why I don’t want the characters to talk about their ages.

That said, you know, it’s funny. We were just having a conversation about aging in comics yesterday — a bunch of the editors. We weren’t talking about an X-character, but we were talking about another character. I’m not going to tell you who right now, but we were talking about the fact that a younger character is being kept kind of young. And we were saying we felt like that was a really good thing, because so much of what makes that character special is their youth. And once these characters age up, they’re just like all the other characters. Honestly, I never thought about it this way. But if you look at who are the youngest group of mutants, they’re the most special in a way.

[Daedra]

I thought JDW's answer was pretty definitive. They reverted Jean back to the dress and codename because that was the last version of Jean before Phoenix, i.e. the "Pure" Jean before Phoenix. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to ignore the past 40 years of Jean's history, but JDW is clearly saying that was the goal.

Now, they are claiming that Jean has atoned for Dark Phoenix (because of the Gameworld storyline in X-men) and she can go back to Jean Grey and wear a new costume. Again, this storyline would have worked better if it had come out 40 years ago when Dark Phoenix was Jean's most recent story.

You explained it much better than I ever could, I guess ….maybe I was just waiting for something more … I don’t know.

[WallStreeter]

Here is what I think the issue might be. Hickman and White are older guys and some people as they get older get stuck in the past. For them Jean is the 60s or 70s Marvel Girl.

For me that happened before I was born and to try to preserve things that hate Inter before I was born or when Inwas a child is absurd. Even without the Phoenix Jean had a lot of other developments and to try to ignore all that just to pretend it’s 1968 is stupid.

Glad White realized fans see Jean as either Jean Grey or Phoenix. I’d wager all writers under a certain age feel the same way. Jean is not known to the general public as Marvel Girl and that silly dress isn’t known either. Of course they did not stick.

Plus Jean has a lot of development of powers as Phoenix during the Morrison run and as Jeen later. Plus two movies as Dark Phoenix.

That really can’t be ignore no matter how sole oldie wants to.

And I am not ageist and not all old people think like these men, but some do and it’s a problem. It isn’t even discrimination per say, they are stuck decades ago and cannot process change.

[Grey]

I thought JDW's answer was pretty definitive. They reverted Jean back to the dress and codename because that was the last version of Jean before Phoenix, i.e. the "Pure" Jean before Phoenix. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to ignore the past 40 years of Jean's history, but JDW is clearly saying that was the goal.

Now, they are claiming that Jean has atoned for Dark Phoenix (because of the Gameworld storyline in X-men) and she can go back to Jean Grey and wear a new costume. Again, this storyline would have worked better if it had come out 40 years ago when Dark Phoenix was Jean's most recent story.

I admit I haven’t read the interview, just responding to forum comments, but if he said that it’s just silly. Before the recent “marvel girl” “green dress” revert, we had teen jean and xmen red. Those shoukd have informed the recent jean development, not something from the Phoenix saga. Good grief, I can’t.

Red and all new xmen were popular And well received. Its not like we were talking about some obscure books that nobody liked. In other words, that is such an awful reason to revert my jeans code name and stress. Bc of xmen red and teen jean.they’re either ignoring them by saying that, or they forgot their most recent development on the character…

At the end of thr day though, I think about the fact that decades of comics exist. And I’ve just learned to like, substitute my own thoughts in when interviews say outlandish things. I’m not delusional, I know it doesn’t change what writers and editors say in interviews, but I am able to enjoy the comics and just hand wave some of that mess away.

[Grey]

Also it bothers me when marvel writers/editors give responses on age that are so…. Judgmental like the green text above. I get that it’s their toys and if they say cyclops is 27 not 37, that’s final. But they should at least acknowledge that age and time in comics can leave some room for subjectivity and not just… insult people for not mind reading the age that the r writers see the characters as.

The more I read interviews the more I disconnect “my” xmen from “marvels” xmen. I think I’ll just stop reading them and just catch whatever snippets people talk about. Because anytime I read these interviews there is often this condescending tone to some readers who just like, pick up comics occasionally and don’t have a flow chart to decipher peoples ages for example.

in this regard I kinda agree with walllsteeeter. Some of these folks just don’t… evolve with the times when it comes to the comics.

[Starchilde]

idk every interview Jordan does about Jean sounds so uninspired and void to me. I don’t feel like he has a direction for the character or that he has much interest in her.

It seems like the Gameworld issue was indeed supposed to be some sort of “definitive” redemption for Jean herself. That’s super disappointing to me cause she barely talked about it, not even a reflection or something. It was just Rogue mentioning it and some action. Anyway I hope year two is better for her.

[PyroFN]

Yeah, Im not agreeing with anybody in this thread this time about the whole Marvel Girl thing. Jordan was pretty clear about the in-character reasoning in this interview.

Out-of-character reasoning:

”We tried to go back to Marvel Girl and it seems not to have taken or stuck. We had specific reasons for doing it. We’ve talked about them before — and they’re the same as the dress, which, obviously, also didn’t stick quite as long…… I mean, honestly, we made a deliberate effort to try to give people mutant names. I don’t think we’ve ever said this like that. That is part of the reason that Kate became the Red Queen.”

As far as in-character reasoning:

“ I think it worked out though because it fits with where Gerry Duggan was going. Storywise, he was doing this arc over the year of her — I want to say her redeeming herself for the evils of Dark Phoenix. Now, before anybody jumps and says, “She already has done that many times over,” I understand that. But for her to herself.”

“Jonathan bringing her back to the dress and to that codename was linked to the time after the Trial of the Phoenix when she was like, ‘This is when I was most me.’……….. But over the course of that year of X-Men that Gerry wrote, it was sort of her doing great feats and coming to see she has and is making good for that all the time and she can just be herself. And so she doesn’t have to be a version of herself before Phoenix. She can just be herself now and that’s enough. And that has kind of come out in that she did get this new costume and she did decide to just be Jean Grey.”

As far as whether it’s good reasoning……I think @magenta said it best

“Now, they are claiming that Jean has atoned for Dark Phoenix (because of the Gameworld storyline in X-men) and she can go back to Jean Grey and wear a new costume. Again, this storyline would have worked better if it had come out 40 years ago when Dark Phoenix was Jean's most recent story.”

I personally am a bit bummed by the character development of X-Men #12. Not because I think they are right about how Jean should have been done. I like the character motivation of “I killed so many people. I don’t think I’ll ever forgive myself for that, but I’m damn well gonna keep trying.” It’s noble and misguided at the same time and gives depth to Jean that not even Claremont touched on. The best we got was, “Okay, yeah. I may not have physically been Phoenix, but I was in spirit, so I do take that responsibility for Dark Phoenix’ crimes.” Jean does what she believes is right and a driving force of her actions in her past driving her to push harder would have been great in-story reasoning for Jean to keep taking risks for other people, even reckless in the more emotionally charged moments. That would have been incredible to read about if done well.

idk every interview Jordan does about Jean sounds so uninspired and void to me. I don’t feel like he has a direction for the character or that he has much interest in her.

Well, yeah. He’s not writing her and he’s responsible for multiple characters. These are just him answering questions to make sense of the lore. Not passionate theories about the characters he deeply love. He loves the X-Men, but I am not gonna believe he will treat every character with the same passion. It’s like the difference between family members. You have the close relatives and you have the distant ones. You’re polite to the distant ones, but you are not gonna be as energetic about them as you would with closer members. If you want passion, I would look to the actual writers writing the stories, not the main editor overseeing many other teams books with over dozens of other characters.

Actually, I just learned today that there are sub-editors for books to from this interview. How does that work? Does that mean Jordan doesn’t oversee every book? I’m very unaware how the comic industry works I am realizing.

It seems like the Gameworld issue was indeed supposed to be some sort of “definitive” redemption for Jean herself. That’s super disappointing to me cause she barely talked about it, not even a reflection or something. It was just Rogue mentioning it and some action. Anyway I hope year two is better for her.

Exactly! And to quickly solve it was unsatisfying when it was such an interesting character motivation. Like we have literal people in real life with guilt over past actions that they never get over and have to seek help to deal with in a healthier manner. Like, we already have one reason Jean wants to be a super-heroine. This could have been another one and one that could have given her such high highs and very low lows.

[Saturius]

You explained it much better than I ever could, I guess ….maybe I was just waiting for something more … I don’t know.

It would have been nice if they could have actually showed this in the pages of the X books. Why was it so hard to get this simple idea across? It's like they didn't even bother to try.

[andreikes]

idk every interview Jordan does about Jean sounds so uninspired and void to me. I don’t feel like he has a direction for the character or that he has much interest in her.

It seems like the Gameworld issue was indeed supposed to be some sort of “definitive” redemption for Jean herself. That’s super disappointing to me cause she barely talked about it, not even a reflection or something. It was just Rogue mentioning it and some action. Anyway I hope year two is better for her.

Yes, I feel the same. They invented to put on this Marvel Girl costume without any clear explanation (Hickman only said that phoenix thing to give the fans something). This period was the one she spent most invisible.
She was dead, came back, talked to Black Bolt and soon after formed X-Men Red and did a few more things.
Then it took several issues to return to the codename or name Jean Grey. Which the Duggan has not firmly confirmed. And much less explained her reasons properly. It seems that the editorial is too lazy to develop the character (in the long term).
So I hope Gillen in this comic focused on her, develops her well. I wish this comic had like 60 pages to erase what Hickman did to her.

[Starchilde]

Well, yeah. He’s not writing her and he’s responsible for multiple characters. These are just him answering questions to make sense of the lore. Not passionate theories about the characters he deeply love. He loves the X-Men, but I am not gonna believe he will treat every character with the same passion. It’s like the difference between family members. You have the close relatives and you have the distant ones. You’re polite to the distant ones, but you are not gonna be as energetic about them as you would with closer members. If you want passion, I would look to the actual writers writing the stories, not the main editor overseeing many other teams books with over dozens of other characters.

Actually, I just learned today that there are sub-editors for books to from this interview. How does that work? Does that mean Jordan doesn’t oversee every book? I’m very unaware how the comic industry works I am realizing.



Exactly! And to quickly solve it was unsatisfying when it was such an interesting character motivation. Like we have literal people in real life with guilt over past actions that they never get over and have to seek help to deal with in a healthier manner. Like, we already have one reason Jean wants to be a super-heroine. This could have been another one and one that could have given her such high highs and very low lows.

Well thats true, you are right. After all he is editor and not the writer. I just feel that whenever I read his responses about Jean (or other themes) I dont feel much interested. The problem is when they interview Duggan I think he is really superficial too and does not dig into the characters like I wished he would, having the opportunity (and not just about Jean). Look at Vita Ayala's interviews for example, those pieces are much more interesting to me.

And yes, quickly solving and shelving Jean's traumas with a simple "ok you balanced the count kill, you're free now", it's lazy and flat. If you're not going to do this something meaningful its a missed opportunity. I think there is a reason it didn't caused more reactions in the fans (at least in the social media and forums I frequent). It had zero depth. Personally I read that issue's finale and was taken by surprise by Rogue's statement, I asked myself "What? just like that?".

[Starchilde]

Yes, I feel the same. They invented to put on this Marvel Girl costume without any clear explanation (Hickman only said that phoenix thing to give the fans something). This period was the one she spent most invisible.
She was dead, came back, talked to Black Bolt and soon after formed X-Men Red and did a few more things.
Then it took several issues to return to the codename or name Jean Grey. Which the Duggan has not firmly confirmed. And much less explained her reasons properly. It seems that the editorial is too lazy to develop the character (in the long term).
So I hope Gillen in this comic focused on her, develops her well. I wish this comic had like 60 pages to erase what Hickman did to her.

Yeah, Duggan dropped like "hints" but it was just super superficial and left to the interpretation. I read in another place that is because modern comics are not like old comics where there were thoughts bubbles and boxes but cmon... I dont think that's the case. I mean look at current New Mutants. Plenty of room to explore thoughts, feelings and decisions, whether it be actual panels or data pages. And I'm sure Duggan is capable of doing it just fine but well, we've got what we've got. I hope year two and judgement day develops her better.

[Celestialbodies]

I read the interview as well but I wasn’t able to gather any new insight regarding the “reasons” that led the Jean Grey from x-men red to revert into her marvel girl persona, maybe the upcoming issue centering on her relationship with the phoenix will finally give us a definitive answer.

Yeah, Im not agreeing with anybody in this thread this time about the whole Marvel Girl thing. Jordan was pretty clear about the in-character reasoning in this interview.

Out-of-character reasoning:

”We tried to go back to Marvel Girl and it seems not to have taken or stuck. We had specific reasons for doing it. We’ve talked about them before — and they’re the same as the dress, which, obviously, also didn’t stick quite as long…… I mean, honestly, we made a deliberate effort to try to give people mutant names. I don’t think we’ve ever said this like that. That is part of the reason that Kate became the Red Queen.”

As far as in-character reasoning:

“ I think it worked out though because it fits with where Gerry Duggan was going. Storywise, he was doing this arc over the year of her — I want to say her redeeming herself for the evils of Dark Phoenix. Now, before anybody jumps and says, “She already has done that many times over,” I understand that. But for her to herself.”

“Jonathan bringing her back to the dress and to that codename was linked to the time after the Trial of the Phoenix when she was like, ‘This is when I was most me.’……….. But over the course of that year of X-Men that Gerry wrote, it was sort of her doing great feats and coming to see she has and is making good for that all the time and she can just be herself. And so she doesn’t have to be a version of herself before Phoenix. She can just be herself now and that’s enough. And that has kind of come out in that she did get this new costume and she did decide to just be Jean Grey.”

As far as whether it’s good reasoning……I think @magenta said it best

“Now, they are claiming that Jean has atoned for Dark Phoenix (because of the Gameworld storyline in X-men) and she can go back to Jean Grey and wear a new costume. Again, this storyline would have worked better if it had come out 40 years ago when Dark Phoenix was Jean's most recent story.”

I personally am a bit bummed by the character development of X-Men #12. Not because I think they are right about how Jean should have been done. I like the character motivation of “I killed so many people. I don’t think I’ll ever forgive myself for that, but I’m damn well gonna keep trying.” It’s noble and misguided at the same time and gives depth to Jean that not even Claremont touched on. The best we got was, “Okay, yeah. I may not have physically been Phoenix, but I was in spirit, so I do take that responsibility for Dark Phoenix’ crimes.” Jean does what she believes is right and a driving force of her actions in her past driving her to push harder would have been great in-story reasoning for Jean to keep taking risks for other people, even reckless in the more emotionally charged moments. That would have been incredible to read about if done well.



Well, yeah. He’s not writing her and he’s responsible for multiple characters. These are just him answering questions to make sense of the lore. Not passionate theories about the characters he deeply love. He loves the X-Men, but I am not gonna believe he will treat every character with the same passion. It’s like the difference between family members. You have the close relatives and you have the distant ones. You’re polite to the distant ones, but you are not gonna be as energetic about them as you would with closer members. If you want passion, I would look to the actual writers writing the stories, not the main editor overseeing many other teams books with over dozens of other characters.

Actually, I just learned today that there are sub-editors for books to from this interview. How does that work? Does that mean Jordan doesn’t oversee every book? I’m very unaware how the comic industry works I am realizing.



Exactly! And to quickly solve it was unsatisfying when it was such an interesting character motivation. Like we have literal people in real life with guilt over past actions that they never get over and have to seek help to deal with in a healthier manner. Like, we already have one reason Jean wants to be a super-heroine. This could have been another one and one that could have given her such high highs and very low lows.

I agree with a lot of this!

This era has done a nice job of giving many of the X-men very strong motivations, character examinations, or at the very least a consistent narratives. Jean has struggled in that regard, she is visible, and appears across books. But she doesn't have a singular connective narrative. A series of interconnected moments that are not appropriately examined by her own thoughts. She's very reactive, and many situations that should directly affect her development simply don't or has someone as the surrogate.

Taking X-men the book she appears the most and as a main character her arc is more insuinated than shown through her actions. Cyclops, and Synch both have a more balanced and complete story with room for growth. Even, Rogue with her few spotlight issues has givien us, completely introspective dialogue regarding her own choices or decisions. I thought Wolverine and Lorna had moments which highlights their nature while being uniquely specific.

Sunfire I'll concede, either way, I'm looking forward to what Gillen has to offer. I'll stand by what I said before I don't think he'll do wrong by her. Simply based on what we've seen, she might be a catalyst towards moving Hope closer to the Phoenix Force and herself a little further away.

[Tank]

I agree with a lot of this!

This era has done a nice job of giving many of the X-men very strong motivations, character examinations, or at the very least a consistent narratives. Jean has struggled in that regard, she is visible, and appears across books. But she doesn't have a singular connective narrative. A series of interconnected moments that are not appropriately examined by her own thoughts. She's very reactive, and many situations that should directly affect her development simply don't or has someone as the surrogate.

Taking X-men the book she appears the most and as a main character her arc is more insuinated than shown through her actions. Cyclops, and Synch both have a more balanced and complete story with room for growth. Even, Rogue with her few spotlight issues has givien us, completely introspective dialogue regarding her own choices or decisions. I thought Wolverine and Lorna had moments which highlights their nature while being uniquely specific.

Sunfire I'll concede, either way, I'm looking forward to what Gillen has to offer. I'll stand by what I said before I don't think he'll do wrong by her. Simply based on what we've seen, she might be a catalyst towards moving Hope closer to the Phoenix Force and herself a little further away.

I agree on most of this and hope that Gillen does right by her.

Only thing i’m iffy on is your conjecture of using jean’s history and connections as phoenix to further develop another character instead of Jean herself. How many times must things developed for Jean be given away?

It’s beyond exhausting.