Thread Drift: The State of Marvel Heroes

[Mark]

Every universe has its own Eternity (who also is the universe that inhabits him). His death is implicit in a universe dying, but one Eternity dying shouldn't affect the entire multiverse.



If you -- or anyone in their universe -- disagrees with the heroes' decisions, how can you even ask the question? Also, why assume the superheroes are necessarily the best their universe can produce? Are the people in our world who are born with the greatest talents always echelons of any particular moral fiber? Not even a little bit.

That's where Marvel and DC are different, and is why I've always found Marvel more relevant. DC's heroes have often been defined by being perfect in numerous ways, while Marvel's feel like normal people who -- in some cases, literally -- got zapped with magnificent powers, but were still normal people in every other respect.

I don't see them as normal and DC's heroes are far from perfect. At the moment I see them as children who are scared of the dark and faced with the oncoming night decide to burn down the house instead of lighting a candle. There's nothing about them that I find sympathetic or admirable, they are just selfish, petty and fully willing for any reason to stab each other in the back. I have a hard time finding a reason to root against the Red Skull in Axis, evil and despotic though he may be at least he's honest about it and he's never destroyed a world.
This is marvel to me, where the evil is only worse than the good because the evil doesn't have the legacy PR of being heroic a long time ago. I'm pretty sure that next year at this time we'll be talking of how the Red Skull is going to be made an Avenger because "he can get things done".

[TresDias]

I don't see them as normal and DC's heroes are far from perfect.

They are pretty darn close to normal. Look at Peter Parker or just about any of the X-Men. We're talking children who woke up with powers one day.

Many Marvel superheroes were also foul-ups before they got powers. Look at Stephen Strange.

At the moment I see them as children who are scared of the dark and faced with the oncoming night decide to burn down the house instead of lighting a candle. There's nothing about them that I find sympathetic or admirable, they are just selfish, petty and fully willing for any reason to stab each other in the back. I have a hard time finding a reason to root against the Red Skull in Axis, evil and despotic though he may be at least he's honest about it and he's never destroyed a world.
This is marvel to me, where the evil is only worse than the good because the evil doesn't have the legacy PR of being heroic a long time ago. I'm pretty sure that next year at this time we'll be talking of how the Red Skull is going to be made an Avenger because "he can get things done".

If you think the heroes are comparable to the Red Skull (who acts out of deliberate cruelty and prejudice), or that the heroes have been acting out of selfishness and base survival for themselves, then you simply aren't reading the books.

[TakoM]

If you think the heroes are comparable to the Red Skull (who acts out of deliberate cruelty and prejudice), or that the heroes have been acting out of selfishness, then you simply aren't reading the books.

True they are not really comparable but what he means he can get the lead of the Avengers the same way Norman Osborn did. Marvels ideas seems really to be insane at the moment and highly questionable for selling Kids and Teenagers.

[Mark]

They are pretty darn close to normal. Look at Peter Parker or just about any of the X-Men. We're talking children who woke up with powers one day.

Many Marvel superheroes were also foul-ups before they got powers. Look at Stephen Strange.



If you think the heroes are comparable to the Red Skull (who acts out of deliberate cruelty and prejudice), or that the heroes have been acting out of selfishness and base survival for themselves, then you simply aren't reading the books.

Comparable in motive? No, not at all. Comparable in action? Yes, very much so. In the past I've seen the 'hero' side lock people up in the negative zone for life, flat out tell prisoners that they have no rights, experiment on prisoners, kill each other, deny each other power out of fear that the power may be miss-used, attack and fight each other for all manor of reasons and lately I've seen them risk time and space to make a personal point and murder heroes before blowing up a world and then the hero side was willing to let the universe blow up without warning anyone. Sure the Red Skull is at heart evil, but his actions and body count fall far short of the good guys. So yes, I can have trouble deciding if they worth rooting for against him. This is the world that the marvel writers have created in their goal to be edgy and give us flawed heroes; heroes that are so flawed and whose actions are so far into the grey or black zone that I can see one of the worst being welcomed into their lot. In a world where Norman Osborn was given the keys to the kingdom despite the fact that everyone knew he was a crazy supervillain what is the real denial factor that the Red Skull couldn't have the same happen for him?

Again simple question, leaving aside the motive: How many worlds has the Red Skull murdered?

[TresDias]

True they are not really comparable but what he means he can get the lead of the Avengers the same way Norman Osborn did. Marvels ideas seems really to be insane at the moment and highly questionable for selling Kids and Teenagers.

I wasn't aware that comics were for kids and teenagers and no one else. =P

And you're far underestimating kids and teenagers. I was reading "The Sandman" and "Watchmen" long before I was an adult.

Comparable in motive? No, not at all. Comparable in action? Yes, very much so. In the past I've seen the 'hero' side lock people up in the negative zone for life, flat out tell prisoners that they have no rights, experiment on prisoners, kill each other, deny each other power out of fear that the power may be miss-used, attack and fight each other for all manor of reasons and lately I've seen them risk time and space to make a personal point and murder heroes before blowing up a world and then the hero side was willing to let the universe blow up without warning anyone. Sure the Red Skull is at heart evil, but his actions and body count fall far short of the good guys. So yes, I can have trouble deciding if they worth rooting for against him. This is the world that the marvel writers have created in their goal to be edgy and give us flawed heroes; heroes that are so flawed and whose actions are so far into the grey or black zone that I can see one of the worst being welcomed into their lot. In a world where Norman Osborn was given the keys to the kingdom despite the fact that everyone knew he was a crazy supervillain what is the real denial factor that the Red Skull couldn't have the same happen for him?

Again simple question, leaving aside the motive: How many worlds has the Red Skull murdered?

It's not a simple question. You're separating a complex context from the events involved. It would be like telling U.S. history and bringing up Operation: Enduring Freedom without mentioning that whole 9/11 thing, or bringing up that the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan without mentioning the wider context of World War II.

You yourself acknowledge that the Avengers and the Skull are different in motive. That is the simple question. That's how you determine who the good guys and the bad guys are.

As for the Skull becoming an Avenger, short of another brain transplant, I don't see it -- but if he did, he's as deserving of as much redemption as he's willing to work for, the same as anyone else (e.g. Thanos had a much higher body count than everyone else ever put together, but he did redeem himself; under Starlin's pen anyway).

[brainwasher]

True they are not really comparable but what he means he can get the lead of the Avengers the same way Norman Osborn did. Marvels ideas seems really to be insane at the moment and highly questionable for selling Kids and Teenagers.

Teenagers or your idealized idea of teenagers? Because millions of teenagers seem to love stuff like Game of Thrones and Walking Dead, where survival of the fittest, sadistic violence and immoral / ambigous characters is all there is.

[TresDias]

Yes, stories of uncertain futures with conflicted characters in an unpromising world have great appeal to the youth of today, as this is the world they live in. This isn't the post-WWII era or the era of conquering the moon, when people still believed anything was possible.

Now, there's no promise of a career, much less a home of your own and security. We have an alienated youth facing a future they have no reason to believe in with leaders who prove daily that they don't give a **** about them.

Yet they're supposed to be able to relate to an idealized vision of the world that patently does not exist?

When you ask yourself why everyone hated the epilogue to "Harry Potter," realize this is the answer: Because it's so thematically at odds with everything that came before. Readers recognized everything they saw up to that point. This ending with a perfected world and security had nothing for them, unlike an ending where the immediate threat is vanquished and everyone sets out to face the uncertain future with the resolve to find a place in it to call home.

[Mark]

I wasn't aware that comics were for kids and teenagers and no one else. =P

And you're far underestimating kids and teenagers. I was reading "The Sandman" and "Watchmen" long before I was an adult.


It's not a simple question. You're separating a complex context from the events involved. It would be like telling U.S. history and bringing up Operation: Enduring Freedom without mentioning that whole 9/11 thing, or bringing up that the U.S. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan without mentioning the wider context of World War II.

You yourself acknowledge that the Avengers and the Skull are different in motive. That is the simple question. That's how you determine who the good guys and the bad guys are.

As for the Skull becoming an Avenger, short of another brain transplant, I don't see it -- but if he did, he's as deserving of as much redemption as he's willing to work for, the same as anyone else (e.g. Thanos had a much higher body count than everyone else ever put together, but he did redeem himself; under Starlin's pen anyway).

It's a simple question to the people who died, same for Thanos redemption. Lost in all this redemption is death and the simple reality that the Illuminati and Thanos are breathing and their victims are not. I don't determine who the good guys and the bad guys are simply by motive, things are far more complex than that.

[Mark]

Yes, stories of uncertain futures with conflicted characters in an unpromising world have great appeal to the youth of today, as this is the world they live in. This isn't the post-WWII era or the era of conquering the moon, when people still believed anything was possible.

Now, there's no promise of a career, much less a home of your own and security. We have an alienated youth facing a future they have no reason to believe in with leaders who prove daily that they don't give a **** about them.

Yet they're supposed to be able to relate to an idealized vision of the world that patently does not exist?

When you ask yourself why everyone hated the epilogue to "Harry Potter," realize this is the answer: Because it's so thematically at odds with everything that came before. Readers recognized everything they saw up to that point. This ending with a perfected world and security had nothing for them, unlike an ending where the immediate threat is vanquished and everyone sets out to face the uncertain future with the resolve to find a place in it to call home.

There was never a promise, that's pure nostalgia. You think life was more certain in past eras? Name me an era I'll name you a crisis in faith.

[TresDias]

It's a simple question to the people who died, same for Thanos redemption. Lost in all this redemption is death and the simple reality that the Illuminati and Thanos are breathing and their victims are not. I don't determine who the good guys and the bad guys are simply by motive, things are far more complex than that.

Well, you're going from speaking in an objective sense (clear definitions of right or wrong) to making a subjective appeal to defining the same (via the people who are dead). For that matter, you don't necessarily know that the people who are dead would necessarily agree with you.

There was never a promise, that's pure nostalgia. You think life was more certain in past eras? Name me an era I'll name you a crisis in faith.

Fair enough.

The point remains, though, that idealized depictions of heroics in idealized settings don't ring true to anyone now.

[Mahes]

Mark: I respect your position yet disagree with your premise that everything in the MU is dark. Light humored books and heroics still can be found. For example, Ms. Marvel has been a fun book to read and she's been coming into her own.

[Mikekerr3]

If you think the heroes are comparable to the Red Skull (who acts out of deliberate cruelty and prejudice), or that the heroes have been acting out of selfishness and base survival for themselves, then you simply aren't reading the books.

They co don't have to be as bad of a comparison to be made, For example: Stark has no respect for law or basic human rights, Cap along with other Avengers are OK with torture. It seems to be part of the Avengers credo that even genicidal Avengers are protected and never punished Those are things they share with the RS stating that they share some similarities is not saying they are the same level of evil.

[Mikekerr3]

Yes, stories of uncertain futures with conflicted characters in an unpromising world have great appeal to the youth of today, as this is the world they live in. This isn't the post-WWII era or the era of conquering the moon, when people still believed anything was possible.

Now, there's no promise of a career, much less a home of your own and security. We have an alienated youth facing a future they have no reason to believe in with leaders who prove daily that they don't give a **** about them.

In the sixties when Marvel started printing, and I was growing up, whether the Human race would exist tomorrow was a matter of significant, and rational doubt, Young people started being forcibly sent off to die in large numbers withing a few years of that. Within a decade of that US cities were the scene of massive riots am,d even political conventions turned into display of authoritarian thugs with badges running wild. those days were far better than wheen my parent greww up in a time where americans starved to death in pretty large numbers, or my Grandparents Days when one epidemic killed by the millions

If there has been a better time to live in the US than now it was before anyone started recording history.. There is a lot of **** that need's fixing, but hyperbole doesn't fix anything and just irritates folks who know better.

The noirish elements in entertainment are evidence of that becasue noir only gets popular when times are relatively good.

[TresDias]

They co don't have to be as bad of a comparison to be made, For example: Stark has no respect for law or basic human rights, Cap along with other Avengers are OK with torture. It seems to be part of the Avengers credo that even genicidal Avengers are protected and never punished Those are things they share with the RS stating that they share some similarities is not saying they are the same level of evil.

Had the comparison been that they share similarities, you would be onto something, but the comparison claimed that there is no difference between the two. No, actually, the claim was that the Red Skull is less detestable than the people who stop him. =P

Which is freakin' bananas.

Batman, for example, is every bit as willing to resort to torture as the crime bosses he deals with (and constantly does so), but there's no legitimate reason to ever get him confused with them.

[KOSLOX]

Mark: I respect your position yet disagree with your premise that everything in the MU is dark. Light humored books and heroics still can be found. For example, Ms. Marvel has been a fun book to read and she's been coming into her own.

Ms. Marvel has been terrific. It's currently my favorite pure superhero book having unseated UCSM/Miles Morales: Ultimate Spider-Man.