John Stewart: Green Lantern Appreciation 2022

[Redjack]

Huh? Where did I say that the fans were monolith? Hell, I specifically referred to different factions of fans, rather than some monolithic group mind. Was that not clear? Are you responding to someone else and got your wires crossed?

I'm sure there are many, many people who, like yourself, spend their money based upon their own interests and pay no attention to reviews. That said, there are also many people with less disposable income that do. Hell, I'm sure there are plenty of people with lots of disposable income that are pickier about how they spend their money when it comes to entertainment. They don't spend their money on something they may be disappointed in, so they check to see what the reception has been.

I'd love if a John Stewart animated movie could be as successful as possible. Creative decisions like this will not help. The effect could be insignificant, as you say, but it could be bigger than you'd expect, and why take a risk like that for such little artistic return?

Because it's not a risk. ZERO risk. The creative decisions you don't like are disliked on the basis of your status as a "core fan." That has no bearing on the creative decisions or on the success or failure of the project. It's not a factor. And I don't know what you mean by 'artistic return."

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Because it's not a risk. ZERO risk. The creative decisions you don't like are disliked on the basis of your status as a "core fan." That has no bearing on the creative decisions or on the success or failure of the project. It's not a factor. And I don't know what you mean by 'artistic return."

I've already explained how it could contribute to reduced sales, but, if you think that so few people base their decisions upon reviews that it won't make any significant difference to the overall success or failure of the film, that's fine. We can agree to disagree about the relative importance (or unimportance) of critical reception to low-budget DTV superhero animated features.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd be more than happy to discuss the nitty gritty of the plot and its artistic merits elsewhere. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone here who hasn't already watched it. That may seem overly-cautious at this point, but I'd still rather not delve into specifics openly and I'm leery of being able to consistently pull off spoiler tags, but I'll give it a shot.

spoilers:

In a 80 minute feature in which you've got to not only introduce John, Ollie, and Shayera, but also establish the entire GLCorps, the Guardians, and Sinestro, there's not really enough time to craft a Parallax arc for Hal. Something's going to get undercooked, and, from the sounds of it, Shayera, Sinestro, and Hal were victims of this. A John/Hal showdown only has dramatic weight if they actually know each other. If we've spent the movie building up that relationship, it'll sting when John has to put him down. Otherwise, Hal is just Sinestro with white skin and a shave. And, if that's the case, just spend that time building up Sinestro into a more compelling villain, rather than reducing him to a mere lackey to the big bad. And since there's no time to sufficiently develop either Sinestro or Parallax/Hal, the third act ends up being underwhelming. I hope that clears up what I'm talking about. Let's hope the spoiler tags worked too

end of spoilers

[Redjack]

We can agree to disagree about the relative importance (or unimportance) of critical reception to low-budget DTV superhero animated features.

nope. we can't.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd be more than happy to discuss the nitty gritty of the plot and its artistic merits elsewhere. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone here who hasn't already watched it.

doesn't matter. it's only meaningful to you. that's the point. all opinions in this respect are equal. they have no agency beyond the person who holds them. that's how art works.

I'll give it a shot.

you missed. none of that has any bearing on anything but your personal opinion. which is fine but in no way representative of any potential failure of this film.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

nope. we can't.



doesn't matter. it's only meaningful to you. that's the point. all opinions in this respect are equal. they have no agency beyond the person who holds them. that's how art works.



you missed. none of that has any bearing on anything but your personal opinion. which is fine but in no way representative of any potential failure of this film.

I think we're having a fundamental failure to understand each other here. You keep repeating that I'm expressing opinions as if that is somehow news to me.

I know I'm expressing my opinion, just as you are expressing yours.

You asked for clarification about what I meant by artistic return and I gave it to you.

The factors that go into the financial success or failure are a little muddier. I have only expressed opinions about that topic as well. I've got no problem with anyone disagreeing with me there either.

But repeatedly informing me that I am giving my opinion when that's exactly what I'm attempting to do makes me feel like I'm talking to The Dude.

[Johnny]

Sometimes people's one-sidedness and double standards truly astound me o____O

Bad stuff happens to Hal.

"Oh, it's not so bad. It won't harm him."

"Yeah. The people working on this stuff don't know anything about these fans wars even though they likely have internet connections, are working on Green Lantern, and know that Hal Jordan has existed for several decades, so he probably has fans that don't want to see him treated bad."

"No one's out to get him, even though they did just that in this movie."

Something bad happens to John.

"CLEARLY THEY DON'T WANT THAT BLACK PANTHER MONEY!"

WHY IS JOHN STEWART DUMPED FOR CARDBOARD HAL JORDAN!?

I would think that going through similar stuff would make people have more empathy, but it seems the opposite is what happens with some. I guess I was naïve

Quite interesting for sure.

[Redjack]

I think we're having a fundamental failure to understand each other here. You keep repeating that I'm expressing opinions as if that is somehow news to me.

I know I'm expressing my opinion, just as you are expressing yours.

You asked for clarification about what I meant by artistic return and I gave it to you.

The factors that go into the financial success or failure are a little muddier. I have only expressed opinions about that topic as well. I've got no problem with anyone disagreeing with me there either.

But repeatedly informing me that I am giving my opinion when that's exactly what I'm attempting to do makes me feel like I'm talking to The Dude.

what's muddy to you is not to me.

you're talking to someone whose opinion is informed and you are founding yours on a complete lack of knowledge and data.

What was the budget? What is the time the studio has determined for the film to be a success– make its money back- or a failure- not?

What were the artistic goals of the people who made the film? How can you know if they feel those goals were met? Meeting them is independent of the financial success of the project.

What is the general rate of return of investment on these sorts of projects?

Has internet chatter EVER caused one of these films to fail to meet its projected sales numbers? If so, which one and by how much?

Your entire argument is founded on the centrality of the few "core" fans on CBR, YOUTUBE and TWITTER having any significant influence on the sales of this sort of film. Past performances says, unequivocally, they do not. Simply put- the company wouldn't keep making them if they weren't financially successful.

This is business, not fanfic.

[John Venus]

Based on all the spoilers, it looks like the personality and characterization is John Stewart based on DCAU John Stewart but the main story beats are taken from Kyle Rayner.

Given that they used elements of Kyle Rayner's origin for this movie, I think its only fair we get a Kyle Rayner in which the latter is a young driven man from an inner city neighborhood who is chosen by the Guardians as the new GL and whom Hal reluctantly starts training and they both deal with a racist senator.

[skyvolt2000]

Based on all the spoilers, it looks like the personality and characterization is John Stewart based on DCAU John Stewart but the main story beats are taken from Kyle Rayner.

Given that they used elements of Kyle Rayner's origin for this movie, I think its only fair we get a Kyle Rayner in which the latter is a young driven man from an inner city neighborhood who is chosen by the Guardians as the new GL and whom Hal reluctantly starts training and they both deal with a racist senator.

Which is part of the issue.

For as much complaining about Hal.

There is a bigger elephant in the room that needs to be addressed.

The lack of John Stewart material.

And a reminder to all those who LOVE to scream movies and tv show appearances do not count and DC (Marvel) should only pander to comic book store crew.

If you got characters winning over fans in outside media-material in comics should be made even if it's an OGN. No matter WHO it is. Because you never know who might decide to do a project like this and I think we would rather it be material native to them versus taking someone's stuff.

[Robanker]

Which is part of the issue.

For as much complaining about Hal.

There is a bigger elephant in the room that needs to be addressed.

The lack of John Stewart material.

And a reminder to all those who LOVE to scream movies and tv show appearances do not count and DC (Marvel) should only pander to comic book store crew.

If you got characters winning over fans in outside media-material in comics should be made even if it's an OGN. No matter WHO it is. Because you never know who might decide to do a project like this and I think we would rather it be material native to them versus taking someone's stuff.

It's both. No one thing in this movie was a total deal breaker (again, the Hal stuff did happen to some degree in the source), but when you combine it all this just does not sit well with a fan of John, but also Hal, Kyle, Shayera, the GLC and so forth.

What's worse is that by making John into Kyle, you actually throw away significant John Stewart story beats like meeting Katma and all of Mosaic.

[skyvolt2000]

It's both. No one thing in this movie was a total deal breaker (again, the Hal stuff did happen to some degree in the source), but when you combine it all this just does not sit well with a fan of John, but also Hal, Kyle, Shayera, the GLC and so forth.

What's worse is that by making John into Kyle, you actually throw away significant John Stewart story beats like meeting Katma and all of Mosaic.

We will see Prime from Utraverse in Marvle before we see DC acknowledge GL Mosaic.

Katma... that is still possible.

Kyle.... since I have not seen the movie (as I already ordered from Target for good deal)-whose ring did he get?

I will suspect we will see other lanterns since 3 certain ones were not in this and there is nothing to say Hal could as well.

[Cosmic Emerald 23]

From all the stuff I'm hearing, I'm interested/perplexed as to where the hell they're gonna go with the GL story now. I mean, they could just keep lifting stuff from Kyle (which would be a HUGE disservice to John and Kyle, financial gain be damned). Or I guess they could go into the other lantern spectrums like I feel they're inevitably going to do to lead up to a Blackest Night adaptation

[Robanker]

We will see Prime from Utraverse in Marvle before we see DC acknowledge GL Mosaic.

Katma... that is still possible.

Kyle.... since I have not seen the movie (as I already ordered from Target for good deal)-whose ring did he get?

I will suspect we will see other lanterns since 3 certain ones were not in this and there is nothing to say Hal could as well.

spoilers:

Katma is shown as one of the prior Lanterns. She's dead. He gets Hal's ring and they Fuze the origins. It's still a crashed alien, but a Guardian instead of Abin who gives him the ring and we establish Emerald Twilight happened, John's the last GL and tasked with reviving the corps. Kyle is essentially redundant because John is made the newcomer/last hope/only GL who can apparently mainline the battery since everyone else very, very dead.

end of spoilers

[John Venus]

Will be seeing the movie soon but some late night rambling thoughts based on the discussion on this thread thus far:

-I think what John really needs is a villain that he can call his own. Sinestro is mostly associated with Hal these days but he is a good villain for any GL. But John needs a villain specific to him and my choice would be Despero. I love their fight in the JL episode 'Hearts and Minds', always wish that was carried over into the comics or they did more episodes with the two butting heads. Or maybe give him the Manhunters, John confronting Guardians over the massacre of Sector 666 has potential to be really impactful.

-My introduction to John Stewart may have been JLU but the absence of Katma Tui and the minimization of John's thoughtful architect side of his personality is starting to bug me. DCAU John may be been a stoic military guy but they fleshed out his character and gave him more facets than that. If Katma can't be his 'Lois Lane', she should at least be his 'Gwen Stacy' (which I guess makes Shayera Hol his MJ and Vixen or Fatality his Black Cat).

-I think they should have had Katma Tui recruit him in to the GLC. IMO, using Abin Sur or any of the Guardians draws too many comparisons with Hal and Kyle.

-The first GL movie is usually the 'space boot camp' movie and I can understand why they didn't want to repeat that for this movie. I think that while Hal and Kyle lend themselves well to the Joseph Campbell/Luke Skywalkian heroes journey formula that Hollywood loves, John and Guy works best when they're introduced as already established GL's. If you're doing a story set in John's early years, ideally I would prefer it being set in his second or fourth year as a Lantern with maybe a brief flashback to when he was recruited. John is not naive or arrogant or burdened with a conflict generating character flaw, he is already fully self actualized by the time the Guardians recruit him. The question isn't whether he deserves his power since he was chosen because he's already worthy of it but how he uses his power and him figuring out how he can apply what he learned on earth whilst dealing with the various conflicts he encounters in space.

[skyvolt2000]

Will be seeing the movie soon but some late night rambling thoughts based on the discussion on this thread thus far:

-I think what John really needs is a villain that he can call his own. Sinestro is mostly associated with Hal these days but he is a good villain for any GL. But John needs a villain specific to him and my choice would be Despero. I love their fight in the JL episode 'Hearts and Minds', always wish that was carried over into the comics or they did more episodes with the two butting heads. Or maybe give him the Manhunters, John confronting Guardians over the massacre of Sector 666 has potential to be really impactful.

-My introduction to John Stewart may have been JLU but the absence of Katma Tui and the minimization of John's thoughtful architect side of his personality is starting to bug me. DCAU John may be been a stoic military guy but they fleshed out his character and gave him more facets than that. If Katma can't be his 'Lois Lane', she should at least be his 'Gwen Stacy' (which I guess makes Shayera Hol his MJ and Vixen or Fatality his Black Cat).

-I think they should have had Katma Tui recruit him in to the GLC. IMO, using Abin Sur or any of the Guardians draws too many comparisons with Hal and Kyle.

-The first GL movie is usually the 'space boot camp' movie and I can understand why they didn't want to repeat that for this movie. I think that while Hal and Kyle lend themselves well to the Joseph Campbell/Luke Skywalkian heroes journey formula that Hollywood loves, John and Guy works best when they're introduced as already established GL's. If you're doing a story set in John's early years, ideally I would prefer it being set in his second or fourth year as a Lantern with maybe a brief flashback to when he was recruited. John is not naive or arrogant or burdened with a conflict generating character flaw, he is already fully self actualized by the time the Guardians recruit him. The question isn't whether he deserves his power since he was chosen because he's already worthy of it but how he uses his power and him figuring out how he can apply what he learned on earth whilst dealing with the various conflicts he encounters in space.

Here is the million dollar issue...

WHO is going to do all that work?
Along with will FANS allow that work to be done?

First somebody has to be interviewed and HIRED. If you are not listening to pitches how can you world build?

Fans-we have seen too many fans take issue with book existing. Along with some store owners. We have seen books not sniff a comic book store not over sales but owner bias. Like Motor Crush, Grifter, Sam Alexander and pretty much all of Archie. New Age Heroes say HI.

DC has to commit to a world build and not jump ship after one or two projects.
There is nothing wrong with a 6 issue mini and a 6 month break between.

But you have to be committed. No matter the pushback. Especially if sales are fine.

DC has to get to the point of saying you read it or you don't but stop with the "this book should not exist because I say so."

[Vordan]

I like Despero and wouldn’t mind them repurposing him as a nemesis for John, but I also think John should have a nemesis who leads an organization that threatens the entire GLC like the Sinestro Corps did. If I were writing I’d take the Empire of Tears, a group we barely know anything about but were apparently techno-sorcerers, and craft a bad guy who stands as the face for that faction and opposes John. If John’s can spin three omnis worth of stories out of old Alan Moore stories for Hal I don’t think it’s impossible for someone to do the same for John and Redjack introduced a group of magic users as an opponent of the GLC in his run. Maybe they could be tied to the Empire of Tears in some way? I just really liked seeing John go up against a lost relic of the Empire in that Halloween story and think that should be continued.