Peter Parker/Spider-Man Appreciation 2022.

[Chris0013]

Well they're harboring Shaw,Sinister,Mystique,etc.

They've made it clear everyone gets amnesty

I am assuming that was for crimes up until that point. So let's say you have a mutant who is committing serious crimes after the founding of Krakoa.

[Spiderfan001]

I am assuming that was for crimes up until that point. So let's say you have a mutant who is committing serious crimes after the founding of Krakoa.

Well selene was killing people after Krakoa existed IIRC in Captain America and she's enjoying Krakoa and was also about to be on the council

[Chris0013]

Well selene was killing people after Krakoa existed IIRC in Captain America and she's enjoying Krakoa and was also about to be on the council

Which is an issue with me because with what she was doing why wasn't she put in the pit?

[Frontier]

I think you can definitely mine some potential between the Mutant idea of justice (and lack there of) and Spidey being Spidey.

[Chris0013]

I think you can definitely mine some potential between the Mutant idea of justice (and lack there of) and Spidey being Spidey.

Unfortunately I doubt it will ever happen. No one outside of the X-Office seems to want to go near anything mutant related since the Krakoa era started.

[Huntsman Spider]

Funny enough, even within the X-Books themselves, there's been a lot more introspection and internal conflict in Krakoa about the increasingly high moral cost of achieving the closest thing to mutant utopia on Earth, especially after Jonathan Hickman's Inferno. There are currently a number of factions within Krakoa working toward different goals and methods for the betterment of Krakoa, one being the restoration of some sense of moral idealism to what has been an increasingly amoral, if not nihilistic attitude taking hold among the populace and leadership, as in Si Spurrier's Way/Legion of X, as led by Nightcrawler and Legion. Another faction is working around Krakoa's current leadership out of understandable and even rightful suspicion of the leadership's methods and motives, such as the recent New Mutants run focusing on the younger generations of mutants that used to be students at the Xavier Institute. There's even a faction working against that current leadership out of the belief that it's been severely counterproductive to the wellbeing of mutants as a whole, though in Abigail Brand's view, as seen in Al Ewing's S.W.O.R.D. and now X-Men Red, the "humans vs. mutants" conflict is just petty squabbling between "Earthers," and if they can't transcend that in the face of greater threats, they deserve to be taken out of the equation.

Even before those more recent books and arcs, upcoming ASM writer Zeb Wells's Hellions has as one of its major themes that Krakoa isn't exactly at peace and harmony with itself, since a lot of the mutants still remember and aren't so willing to "let bygones be bygones" when it comes to the crimes committed by mutants against mutants, like the Morlock Massacre, not to mention an ongoing conflict over how to deal with genuinely unstable, psychologically damaged mutants that are as much dangers to themselves as those around them, whether other mutants or even humans, as well as whether or not meaningful redemption for those past crimes is possible. Then, as of the climax in X of Swords, Cyclops and Jean Grey brought back the X-Men in spite of the misgivings of Krakoa's leadership because lives were at risk and there was no time to wait for Quiet Council approval, not to mention that bringing back the X-Men would, somewhat similarly to Way/Legion of X with Nightcrawler and Legion, give the people of Krakoa an ideal to believe in and aspire towards, as opposed to the machinations for power and control largely driving the Quiet Council, as well as an olive branch of sorts toward humanity. Beyond all that, most of the events in which Krakoa has been involved, it's been the more heroic remaining citizens or residents that have retained positions of respect and influence in that nation who've pushed for not abandoning humanity and its heroes completely, even if based on the pragmatic reasoning that, "Whatever threatens them, threatens us, because we're all living on the same planet."

To wit, while there is a lot to admittedly critique, question, and even condemn about the establishment of Krakoa and how things have been managed thus far, whether in-universe or by the writers and editors, there are also some reasons for hope, and the books do acknowledge that things are much more complex, morally speaking, than simply "mutants good, humans bad, and if [some] mutants are bad, that's only because humans drove them to it." Way/Legion of X admits, for one example, that the mutants on Krakoa have begun to lose their way in terms of morality and idealism and that they do need some form of moral grounding to keep from destroying themselves, each other, or even the world around them. New Mutants as of late tackles the longstanding emotional, psychological, and spiritual damage inflicted on the younger generations of mutants and healing that damage, with a more recent issue even flat-out admitting that the adults were willing to use a younger mutant's longstanding trauma as a proverbial bloody shirt to wave uniting mutants against human cruelty and prejudice, even if it meant letting that mutant's trauma go unaddressed, something finally rectified in that same issue. S.W.O.R.D. and X-Men Red both address the issue that if mutants are to ascend to become power players in intergalactic or interstellar politics, they can't be held back by the same hatreds, grudges, and tensions that have bogged them down on Earth. Hellions --- once again, by the same guy who'll be writing Amazing Spider-Man soon --- has addressed (or tried to address) whether or not reform and redemption are possible or meaningful for mutants who have committed some of the gravest crimes against fellow mutants or even humans, and the return of the X-Men is generally about whether or not the X-Men still have it in them to bridge the growing divide --- or chasm, so to speak --- between humans and mutants.

In conclusion, the current X-Books' status quo is much more willing to interrogate itself and admit or acknowledge its imperfections, sins, and failings than it might seem from an outside point of view. With that, who's (not) looking forward to Zeb Wells's Amazing Spider-Man when it comes out later this month?

[Lukmendes]

Would work better if it was some really heinous crime...committed after the amnesty deal was struck...that would even make many Krakoans uneasy about the amnesty.

It'd need to be something ridiculously brutal, considering that Selene is there, doing bullshit post Krakoa and nobody cares, Mystique and Sinister are backstabbing everyone and the council barely does anything...

In conclusion, the current X-Books' status quo is much more willing to interrogate itself and admit or acknowledge its imperfections, sins, and failings than it might seem from an outside point of view. With that, who's (not) looking forward to Zeb Wells's Amazing Spider-Man when it comes out later this month?

The idea of "everyone hates Spidey (again)" is stupid and I'm not looking forward to it if it's happening as Marvel describes it, and this being Zeb Wells I'm not sure he'll write an interesting MJ, assuming she even stays around, or isn't eaten by Lizard.

Basically it's not that different from when I heard that Spencer was gonna write ASM, since he's the guy who wrote Secret Empire, if we're lucky, it can be like Spencer where despite the odds, the early parts of the run are alright, and if we're really lucky, it won't become boring or crap after a while.

[Huntsman Spider]

It'd need to be something ridiculously brutal, considering that Selene is there, doing bullshit post Krakoa and nobody cares, Mystique and Sinister are backstabbing everyone and the council barely does anything...



The idea of "everyone hates Spidey (again)" is stupid and I'm not looking forward to it if it's happening as Marvel describes it, and this being Zeb Wells I'm not sure he'll write an interesting MJ, assuming she even stays around, or isn't eaten by Lizard.

Basically it's not that different from when I heard that Spencer was gonna write ASM, since he's the guy who wrote Secret Empire, if we're lucky, it can be like Spencer where despite the odds, the early parts of the run are alright, and if we're really lucky, it won't become boring or crap after a while.

Sounds about right.

[Frontier]

Funny enough, even within the X-Books themselves, there's been a lot more introspection and internal conflict in Krakoa about the increasingly high moral cost of achieving the closest thing to mutant utopia on Earth, especially after Jonathan Hickman's Inferno. There are currently a number of factions within Krakoa working toward different goals and methods for the betterment of Krakoa, one being the restoration of some sense of moral idealism to what has been an increasingly amoral, if not nihilistic attitude taking hold among the populace and leadership, as in Si Spurrier's Way/Legion of X, as led by Nightcrawler and Legion. Another faction is working around Krakoa's current leadership out of understandable and even rightful suspicion of the leadership's methods and motives, such as the recent New Mutants run focusing on the younger generations of mutants that used to be students at the Xavier Institute. There's even a faction working against that current leadership out of the belief that it's been severely counterproductive to the wellbeing of mutants as a whole, though in Abigail Brand's view, as seen in Al Ewing's S.W.O.R.D. and now X-Men Red, the "humans vs. mutants" conflict is just petty squabbling between "Earthers," and if they can't transcend that in the face of greater threats, they deserve to be taken out of the equation.

Even before those more recent books and arcs, upcoming ASM writer Zeb Wells's Hellions has as one of its major themes that Krakoa isn't exactly at peace and harmony with itself, since a lot of the mutants still remember and aren't so willing to "let bygones be bygones" when it comes to the crimes committed by mutants against mutants, like the Morlock Massacre, not to mention an ongoing conflict over how to deal with genuinely unstable, psychologically damaged mutants that are as much dangers to themselves as those around them, whether other mutants or even humans, as well as whether or not meaningful redemption for those past crimes is possible. Then, as of the climax in X of Swords, Cyclops and Jean Grey brought back the X-Men in spite of the misgivings of Krakoa's leadership because lives were at risk and there was no time to wait for Quiet Council approval, not to mention that bringing back the X-Men would, somewhat similarly to Way/Legion of X with Nightcrawler and Legion, give the people of Krakoa an ideal to believe in and aspire towards, as opposed to the machinations for power and control largely driving the Quiet Council, as well as an olive branch of sorts toward humanity. Beyond all that, most of the events in which Krakoa has been involved, it's been the more heroic remaining citizens or residents that have retained positions of respect and influence in that nation who've pushed for not abandoning humanity and its heroes completely, even if based on the pragmatic reasoning that, "Whatever threatens them, threatens us, because we're all living on the same planet."

To wit, while there is a lot to admittedly critique, question, and even condemn about the establishment of Krakoa and how things have been managed thus far, whether in-universe or by the writers and editors, there are also some reasons for hope, and the books do acknowledge that things are much more complex, morally speaking, than simply "mutants good, humans bad, and if [some] mutants are bad, that's only because humans drove them to it." Way/Legion of X admits, for one example, that the mutants on Krakoa have begun to lose their way in terms of morality and idealism and that they do need some form of moral grounding to keep from destroying themselves, each other, or even the world around them. New Mutants as of late tackles the longstanding emotional, psychological, and spiritual damage inflicted on the younger generations of mutants and healing that damage, with a more recent issue even flat-out admitting that the adults were willing to use a younger mutant's longstanding trauma as a proverbial bloody shirt to wave uniting mutants against human cruelty and prejudice, even if it meant letting that mutant's trauma go unaddressed, something finally rectified in that same issue. S.W.O.R.D. and X-Men Red both address the issue that if mutants are to ascend to become power players in intergalactic or interstellar politics, they can't be held back by the same hatreds, grudges, and tensions that have bogged them down on Earth. Hellions --- once again, by the same guy who'll be writing Amazing Spider-Man soon --- has addressed (or tried to address) whether or not reform and redemption are possible or meaningful for mutants who have committed some of the gravest crimes against fellow mutants or even humans, and the return of the X-Men is generally about whether or not the X-Men still have it in them to bridge the growing divide --- or chasm, so to speak --- between humans and mutants.

In conclusion, the current X-Books' status quo is much more willing to interrogate itself and admit or acknowledge its imperfections, sins, and failings than it might seem from an outside point of view. With that, who's (not) looking forward to Zeb Wells's Amazing Spider-Man when it comes out later this month?

Even in that respect I'm not sure if the titles are as self-aware or conscious of possible moral issues or ethics as the fans are, as numerous discussions on the X-Board can attest.

It'd need to be something ridiculously brutal, considering that Selene is there, doing bullshit post Krakoa and nobody cares, Mystique and Sinister are backstabbing everyone and the council barely does anything...

The idea of "everyone hates Spidey (again)" is stupid and I'm not looking forward to it if it's happening as Marvel describes it, and this being Zeb Wells I'm not sure he'll write an interesting MJ, assuming she even stays around, or isn't eaten by Lizard.

Basically it's not that different from when I heard that Spencer was gonna write ASM, since he's the guy who wrote Secret Empire, if we're lucky, it can be like Spencer where despite the odds, the early parts of the run are alright, and if we're really lucky, it won't become boring or crap after a while.

I just hope Spidey's competent.

[Lukmendes]

Even in that respect I'm not sure if the titles are as self-aware or conscious of possible moral issues or ethics as the fans are, as numerous discussions on the X-Board can attest.

I'm not sure if Hickman himself was aware of how bad it was, even though Krakoa intentionally was made to have to creepy vibe, the way it gives such a strong cult vibe was really weird, and it shows how bad it is in X-Men#6, where Cyke and Nightcrawler have a casual discussion while Apocalypse is killing some woman because of the fucking Crucible.

Other comics point out that Krakoa isn't that good of a place (Even then I'm not sure how many do so), but the main one was seemingly lacking self awareness, and that's weird.

I just hope Spidey's competent.

Man how fucking damaging was Slott to this franchise for something like that to even have to be said?

Beyond itself does no favors too with the way Ben was treated, 'cause it can give the impression that Spidey is next.

The dream for me would be if Spidey could have some of that 80's competence back, which could be pretty good in showing just how powerful someone as fast and strong as him could be, since we even got enemies commenting "What the ****, this guy's too strong/too fast!" sometimes.

Though they should not go as far as the 80's did and have him defeating someone on Firelord's level, to hell with that garbage lol.

[Spiderfan001]

Nah fr Spidey needs to be competent

Hopes are low though since Zebs Wells issue 1 preview has him not listening his Spider-sense , as if it's not an instinct that he needs to fight to ignore...

[Lukmendes]

Nah fr Spidey needs to be competent

Yeah, and having actually good looking fights would help, the lack of choreography in modern fights really does him no favors in looking fast.

Hopes are low though since Zebs Wells issue 1 preview has him not listening his Spider-sense , as if it's not an instinct that he needs to fight to ignore...

That reminds me of Conway, there are random moments where Spidey was like "Spider-sense is tingling! Huh, nothing's around, must've been a false alarm" lol.

[Frontier]

Man how fucking damaging was Slott to this franchise for something like that to even have to be said?

Beyond itself does no favors too with the way Ben was treated, 'cause it can give the impression that Spidey is next.

The dream for me would be if Spidey could have some of that 80's competence back, which could be pretty good in showing just how powerful someone as fast and strong as him could be, since we even got enemies commenting "What the ****, this guy's too strong/too fast!" sometimes.

Though they should not go as far as the 80's did and have him defeating someone on Firelord's level, to hell with that garbage lol.

It wasn't even just Slott, it went back to the OMD/BND era where it felt like Spidey was constantly getting his butt handed to him, running out of web fluid, or just in general only marginally winning every fight he was in.

It's part of why I was always concerned about Wells writing the title again.

[Lukmendes]

It wasn't even just Slott, it went back to the OMD/BND era where it felt like Spidey was constantly getting his butt handed to him, running out of web fluid, or just in general only marginally winning every fight he was in.

Right, I remember hearing that a few different writers had the genius idea of Spidey running out of web fluid, which made him look like a bigger moron than intended lol.

It's part of why I was always concerned about Wells writing the title again.

Well, good news is, Ben never raw out of web fluid, at least .

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Slott always struck me as having been put in charge because he agreed with the pro-OMD/BND crowd.

I don't know if I can call him a "yes man", but Quesada knew he would do exactly what they wanted to do with Spider-Man. It's probably how he managed to stay on Spider-Man for 10 years, in spite of the poor quality.