Clark Kent/Kal-El/Superman 2022 Appreciation

[Quinlan58]

Listened to Hitch’s latest interview on Word Balloon and he leaked some more info on the Waid project (around the 40 minute mark):
-Says Nowlan has finished inking issue 1 and he’s about halfway done drawing issue 2
-It will be an all encompassing Superman story that tackles everything from Smallville to Atlantis (I guess Lori is showing up ) to Metropolis, Lex Luthor, and the Legion of Superheroes
-If this was his final project involving Superman he’d be content with it because it lets him put his own spin on every corner of the Super Mythos
-Waid had pitched this a while ago but Didio vetoed it. Once Didio left, Jim Lee pretty much immediately greenlit it
-Hitch loves Waid’s take on the character and thinks he’s one of the guys who really *gets* Superman (no shocker they work well together given they both worship Chris Reeve)

Sounds like Waid is getting wild with this, Birthright was quasi-realistic but this sounds like Waid going all out and bringing in every single component of Superman he’s wanted to touch on for a while. Modernizing all those Silver Age Superman bits of lore he loved is what I see happening here. Expecting Brainiac will be the bad guy here but perhaps this will also involve multiple Superman Rogues too.

Considering Didio's "Everyone reverts to a 5-year-old when given the Superman books", this might explain why this was veto-ed. Wondering if this'll be Waid in full Pre-Crisis nostalgia mode, but even if it were, it'll probably be fun.

And I'm perfectly fine with it if it gives me more Lori.

[manwhohaseverything]

Becoming 5year olds isn't bad if imagination runs wild ..

[Vordan]

Considering Didio's "Everyone reverts to a 5-year-old when given the Superman books", this might explain why this was veto-ed. Wondering if this'll be Waid in full Pre-Crisis nostalgia mode, but even if it were, it'll probably be fun.

And I'm perfectly fine with it if it gives me more Lori.

If anyone is guilty of that it’s definitely Waid (and I’d bet he’s precisely who Didio had in mind when he said that), but he’s also proof that mindset doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t write good Superman stories within that confine.

One thing I forgot to include in that summary is that Hitch said DC isn’t even bothering to schedule it until it’s done because of how slow everyone involved is, and in an informal Q&A on Twitter he said he thought it was 18 months away - from this Aug - from coming out because of other work that all three are doing.

[Frontier]

If anyone is guilty of that it’s definitely Waid (and I’d bet he’s precisely who Didio had in mind when he said that), but he’s also proof that mindset doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t write good Superman stories within that confine.

One thing I forgot to include in that summary is that Hitch said DC isn’t even bothering to schedule it until it’s done because of how slow everyone involved is, and in an informal Q&A on Twitter he said he thought it was 18 months away - from this Aug - from coming out because of other work that all three are doing.

Well, at least that's honest .

[Last Son of Krypton]

I forgot the Waid/Hitch series was in the works, lol. Too much time passed since its announcement.

[Superlad93]

If anyone is guilty of that it’s definitely Waid (and I’d bet he’s precisely who Didio had in mind when he said that), but he’s also proof that mindset doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t write good Superman stories within that confine.

Sure, and I doubt DiDio ever disputed that it couldn't be fun or good.

From all that he's said or implied regarding it, it seems like it's more so that DiDio sees those kinds of stories as junk food. There's nothing wrong with a cheat meal here and there. It certainly won't kill, and you can be sure that it'll taste great because junk food is made to taste great. But It's the longevity of it. It's the stuff that comes after the instant gratification of just "fun" or "good" that DiDio seemed to be thinking about. He was looking for something additive in both the sense of gaining new fans and in the sense of adding new dimensions to the IP-- expanding what's possible when someone goes to write a Superman story.

So to me, Waid, be it in World's Finest or Birthright 2, has it in him to do more harm than good to the IP because of his predisposition, dogmatic adherence to the Silver and Bronze ages, and his status as an "authority figure" on the character/IP. To me, it's a given that you turn that down unless Waid is willing to actively move outside of his comfort zone with the character (and that sounds like the very last thing he's willing to do with the space he has)

[The Frog Bros]

Listened to Hitch’s latest interview on Word Balloon and he leaked some more info on the Waid project (around the 40 minute mark):
-Says Nowlan has finished inking issue 1 and he’s about halfway done drawing issue 2
-It will be an all encompassing Superman story that tackles everything from Smallville to Atlantis (I guess Lori is showing up ) to Metropolis, Lex Luthor, and the Legion of Superheroes
-If this was his final project involving Superman he’d be content with it because it lets him put his own spin on every corner of the Super Mythos
-Waid had pitched this a while ago but Didio vetoed it. Once Didio left, Jim Lee pretty much immediately greenlit it
-Hitch loves Waid’s take on the character and thinks he’s one of the guys who really *gets* Superman (no shocker they work well together given they both worship Chris Reeve)

Sounds like Waid is getting wild with this, Birthright was quasi-realistic but this sounds like Waid going all out and bringing in every single component of Superman he’s wanted to touch on for a while. Modernizing all those Silver Age Superman bits of lore he loved is what I see happening here. Expecting Brainiac will be the bad guy here but perhaps this will also involve multiple Superman Rogues too.

Good to hear theres already several issues made (or nearly made). Would be a bummer if it got held up or delayed from a timing standpoint. Like, what happened with Swamp Thing Green Hell? Haven't heard about that since the first issue came out a long while ago.

[Vordan]

Sure, and I doubt DiDio ever disputed that it couldn't be fun or good.

From all that he's said or implied regarding it, it seems like it's more so that DiDio sees those kinds of stories as junk food. There's nothing wrong with a cheat meal here and there. It certainly won't kill, and you can be sure that it'll taste great because junk food is made to taste great. But It's the longevity of it. It's the stuff that comes after the instant gratification of just "fun" or "good" that DiDio seemed to be thinking about. He was looking for something additive in both the sense of gaining new fans and in the sense of adding new dimensions to the IP-- expanding what's possible when someone goes to write a Superman story.

So to me, Waid, be it in World's Finest or Birthright 2, has it in him to do more harm than good to the IP because of his predisposition, dogmatic adherence to the Silver and Bronze ages, and his status as an "authority figure" on the character/IP. To me, it's a given that you turn that down unless Waid is willing to actively move outside of his comfort zone with the character (and that sounds like the very last thing he's willing to do with the space he has)

Which is a mindset I understand but then Didio should have moved heaven and earth to get Fraction or King on a major BL Superman book. Instead we just got a bunch of Batman books and the one big Superman project he greenlit was a fucking origin story from Frank Miller. A Superman origin story is not going to get new fans or add to the Mythos because it’s well trodden ground that we’ve already seen multiple times. To be honest I doubt he blocked Waid over concern about the IP but more so because the two didn’t like each other.

[Superlad93]

Which is a mindset I understand but then Didio should have moved heaven and earth to get Fraction or King on a major BL Superman book.

But that's not always up to DiDio. Like when it comes to Tom King. He was the hottest writer in comics for a time, and he'd likely find pressure from above to put that guy on Batman before Superman because DC's a Batman making business before anything. And there was only a limited window for King because that 50 something issue run of Batman was the last time he'd do more than 12 issues on a book. In Fraction's case DiDio was going to move him to Superman. Fraction confirmed as much in an interview, but that was depending on if he and the other TV writers went on strike and if 5G even happened.

And even then DiDio had to contend with all of the people who would've been yelling "this isn't a Superman story" or "Clark wouldn't do that". So the move was going to be to start fresh with a new Superman who didn't come with the same preconceived notions as the last. That way what constituted as a "Superman story" or "a thing Superman would do" would have been more open and left up to a more out of the box thinker like Fraction.

Hell, Jon was even going to be considerably weaker in terms of power when compared to Clark in his prime, so that was DiDio already heading off the "too power to do this story" **** at the pass. Jon, while also apparently being a more "traditional" Superman when compared to Clark in 5G, wasn't going to be universally liked by the public because of him screwing up and shrinking the city for a time. It was likely a nod to the Professor X comparison because Jon would've looked for peace even while some parts of the population had it out for him.

But it also works as second try at the Man of Steel/BVS and New 52 "some people hate Superman and some people love him" idea. And I bring this up because the unifying factor between a weaker Superman and a Superman who isn't fully trusted is that these are all things that you simply can't sustain with Clark for any prolonged amount of time without people bitching. You just can't. But since Jon wasn't Clark, wasn't full Kryptonian, and walking with 80 years of preconceptions behind him...you could've done that with him.

That was the magic of the clean slate. That was the thing DiDio knew even a reboot wouldn't allow from the DCU and it main stays. He was looking to redefine what you can expect. It wouldn't make sense to green light what is basically yet another origin story before you get the modern stuff down. He had a whole timeline that allowed for you to stop pretending and tell those older stories in their context and flesh it all out basically infinitely (he said gens 2 and 3 were to basically be new stories about the older gens in their prime). That's basically an Ultimate DC line. Space Age was supposed to have 20 something issues in it, and I'm sure there would've been more by different creators. Waid could've played their till his heart's content.

[Vordan]

But that's not always up to DiDio. Like when it comes to Tom King. He was the hottest writer in comics for a time, and he'd likely find pressure from above to put that guy on Batman before Superman because DC's a Batman making business before anything. And there was only a limited window for King because that 50 something issue run of Batman was the last time he'd do more than 12 issues on a book. In Fraction's case DiDio was going to move him to Superman. Fraction confirmed as much in an interview, but that was depending on if he and the other TV writers went on strike and if 5G even happened.

Black Label was supposed to be the home for Clark, Bruce, and Diana in their prime while 5G was underway. If you’re going to convince people that the classics they love will be taken care of there, you need to put your best foot forward and Didio didn’t do that. He kicked off Black Label with Batman: Damned a horrid story with great art that immediately courted controversy thanks to the Batpenis fiasco which caused the higher ups to take notice. If anything Waid would have been perfect for that BL initiative because he would’ve been the comfort food going down alongside 5G’s medicine, people could go “well I hate what they’re doing with Clark in the mainline but I have Waid and my classic take over here so whatever” which was exactly what the plan was. The diehard Wednesday Warriors could keep getting their remixed stories over in BL which would free the lineup to try new stories with new people in the mantles.

I don’t really buy the notion that there was anyone higher up going “no you can’t tell a Superman story, we can’t afford it, do Batman instead”, the powers that be don’t pay attention to the specifics of the comics unless something happens that makes them take notice. 5G may have been signed off on by WB, but I don’t think Kilar, Sarnoff, Emmerich, or Hamada were hands on with what Didio was doing, and we haven’t heard a peep from the DC President since she got hired so I don’t think she’s been too involved either. If nothing else I fail to see the logic in your first Superman BL book being another origin story written by Frank Miller of all people. Hardly the sort of choice that would set people at ease. BL launched with two books that were terrible and were failures, Damned and Superman: Year One, that’s on Didio as a DC head. He should’ve done better quality control.

And even then DiDio had to contend with all of the people who would've been yelling "this isn't a Superman story" or "Clark wouldn't do that". So the move was going to be to start fresh with a new Superman who didn't come with the same preconceived notions as the last. That way what constituted as a "Superman story" or "a thing Superman would do" would have been more open and left up to a more out of the box thinker like Fraction.

Hell, Jon was even going to be considerably weaker in terms of power when compared to Clark in his prime, so that was DiDio already heading off the "too power to do this story" **** at the pass. Jon, while also apparently being a more "traditional" Superman when compared to Clark in 5G, wasn't going to be universally liked by the public because of him screwing up and shrinking the city for a time. It was likely a nod to the Professor X comparison because Jon would've looked for peace even while some parts of the population had it out for him.


But it also works as second try at the Man of Steel/BVS and New 52 "some people hate Superman and some people love him" idea. And I bring this up because the unifying factor between a weaker Superman and a Superman who isn't fully trusted is that these are all things that you simply can't sustain with Clark for any prolonged amount of time without people bitching. You just can't. But since Jon wasn't Clark, wasn't full Kryptonian, and walking with 80 years of preconceptions behind him...you could've done that with him.

That was the magic of the clean slate. That was the thing DiDio knew even a reboot wouldn't allow from the DCU and it main stays. He was looking to redefine what you can expect. It wouldn't make sense to green light what is basically yet another origin story before you get the modern stuff down. He had a whole timeline that allowed for you to stop pretending and tell those older stories in their context and flesh it all out basically infinitely (he said gens 2 and 3 were to basically be new stories about the older gens in their prime). That's basically an Ultimate DC line. Space Age was supposed to have 20 something issues in it, and I'm sure there would've been more by different creators. Waid could've played their till his heart's content.

And I like that! I think that’s a great pitch for what Jon could bring to the mantle, certainly a better one than the absolute tepidness and creatively bankrupt storytelling Taylor is doing. Similar to how Black Label is a great idea that did not have great execution, I am unsure if the actual execution of storytelling with Jon would have lived up to said potential. I trust Fraction would have done a good job, and maybe having Bendis stick around would have meant less interference in the Super books, but I can’t say for certain. I still remember how New Krypton imploded, how Didio drove away many talented people during the New 52, how their was another exodus in progress because people couldn’t stand his micromanaging, and it makes me wary that 5G would have been another case where he suffocated the life out of the initiative like the New 52.

End of the day I would take 5G Jon with Fraction writing him in a heartbeat over Taylor, but I’m not sure it would have lived up to what you’re imagining it could have been. Ultimately what did Clark is was that people rejected the new in favor of the old because the execution of the new was so shittingly done. The New 52 could have changed Clark if it had led to a change across the board in how he was approached. There should have been a new Superman cartoon, the films should have been forced to use Morrison’s Action run instead of the unholy merger of Donner, Byrne, Birthright, and Secret Origin. There should have been a Superman game. Unless you push the new take across all media it won’t take hold. Batman’s perception didn’t really change from Adam West until the comics, the cartoons, and the Burton films all worked together in a similar timeframe to make it so.

5G Jon would need to have gotten adaptions across the board that screamed “hey here’s the new Superman, he’s not your dad’s Superman because it’s literally a new guy!” and it would’ve needed to have happened fast. I’m assuming that’s why 5G was supposed to involve cross media, to make that happen, but even then Jon unfortunately has his own fans who don’t want him to be what you’re describing. Even if Fraction had done as great as I think he would have, it only takes one Tom Taylor coming on board and nuking all that hard work in favor of devolving Jon into a little Clark Jr because that’s how Superman is “supposed” to be.

Least I have Kenan as a Superman who does bring something new to the table.

[Superlad93]

I don’t really buy the notion that there was anyone higher up going “no you can’t tell a Superman story, we can’t afford it, do Batman instead”,

Is that not happening right now? The glut of Batman books that are seemingly coming out of nowhere seems to 100% be because Batman sells, and when DC is in a default position they fall back on that. Tom King even took the time out go on twitter to go "see, see, we're doing more stuff than just Batman" even though he's gone from Batman to Batman for years now. And with that he even admitted "yeah, Batman sells really, really well, and that's why there's a lot of his books out". They still have to keep the lights on and Batman is how they do that.

If nothing else I fail to see the logic in your first Superman BL book being another origin story written by Frank Miller of all people. Hardly the sort of choice that would set people at ease. BL launched with two books that were terrible and were failures, Damned and Superman: Year One, that’s on Didio as a DC head. He should’ve done better quality control.

Frank Miller had a signed deal already in place and a story he wanted to tell. Part of DiDio's job was building and keeping bridges to known names like that. At worst you're going to sell a few based off "the guy that wrote Dark Knight is doing Superman", and at best DiDio gets that new look at the IP he wanted via "the guy that wrote Dark Knight is writing Superman. And I don't understand how you're saying picking Azzarello for a Batman book was "poor quality control" That's not at all an unsafe bet to make in isolation at the planning stage. Like, what? And Black Label was basically replacing Vertigo, so why would they have been scared of showing a bit of Bat dick? And the point of the whole line was not actually just Bat dicks and swear words. It was to give your Morrison, Miller, and Azz level creators the space and continuity free zone to do whatever they wanted, and take however the wanted to get it out. The objective was to mine for another All Star Superman if possible.

It was a fine choice. One can only call it dumb via the power of having already lived through the aftermath. But on its face it's a fine idea. And again, he's not the one who would've picked the characters for them.

but I can’t say for certain.

You can't say anything for certain. One would've assumed that Grant Morrison being put in a position to be the one that ushers in the new era of Superman with the New 52 would have enough credibility from the fans for their work especially on Superman, but you'd be wrong. It was a divisive take from the word go with that very comic. But on paper that's a slam dunk. The moral is that you simply just have to do it, take the risk, and believe in coming out the other side ultimately better than how you went in.

I still remember how New Krypton imploded, how Didio drove away many talented people during the New 52, how their was another exodus in progress because people couldn’t stand his micromanaging, and it makes me wary that 5G would have been another case where he suffocated the life out of the initiative like the New 52.

That narrative of micromanaging is a fine one when the person it's about can't just go on an interview and tell their side because they have to maintain talking points as the boss. But now that that's over and I've heard his side, and I've heard what he was trying to do based on what happened before? I'm sure he could've presented himself to his writers better, but they also sound childish. Literally going "well, Superman and this character looked like this and had this continuity when I was a kid, and I really like it and want it to be in" when the literal point of that reboot was to REBOOT is not a good look. Like, it sounds like he had to babysit some people because they kept sneaking in **** they liked that went counter to the whole point of the reboot. And to have people like Scott Snyder who will apparently almost come to blows with his boss over a made up dude in a cape yelling about how "this isn't the CORE of the characters" while you're trying to make sure the new highly experimental jump works out? Like, yes you sit down next to writers and go "I know you like Bruce as Batman or whatever, but we're doing something here and its gotta be all hands on deck. I can't have you going off the rails" absolutely.

The issue was people not being cohesive after year one of the New 52, so with 5G you nip that **** in the bud, and yes to a creative person who has a strong connection to these made up people, that is 100% micromanaging.

5G Jon would need to have gotten adaptions across the board that screamed “hey here’s the new Superman, he’s not your dad’s Superman because it’s literally a new guy!” and it would’ve needed to have happened fast.

That's the thing, it wouldn't have needed to happen very fast. There was never going to be a situation where ANY character from 5G would've been taken to fast. The old is too ingrained. It was always going to be the long game, and that's what I think DiDio understood more than anything. That's why he was coming out the gate with an already mapped out 5 year plan (that's 4 years more than the New 52, and 5 years more than this era). You draw people in with the shock value of new characters, Bruce and Clark on the run, Super Sons at odds, and a generational super civil war. That's basically the HBO/Game of Throne/modern TV model. You get the "water cooler" talk aka Twitter buzz going with each installment. You make it a true shared universe where it's Clark who breaks Bruce out of jail, heroes are dating heroes outside of their IP (Jon with Jenny), the Prof X and Mag are the sons of Batman and Superman, and Damian, Luke, and Jon are working together to catch up with Clark and Bruce. That makes it so you're basically doing the MCU thing where even though one book might not mean anything to the other or the big plot...there's that chance of seeing that crosspollination. And with that you build them in the reader's mind via sheer force.

I’m assuming that’s why 5G was supposed to involve cross media, to make that happen, but even then Jon unfortunately has his own fans who don’t want him to be what you’re describing.

You're not going to please everyone. And he's such a young character that they'd have ultimately become even more of a vocal minority when the new fans coming in for the New 52-like influx came in.

[Frontier]

Maybe I've been burned too many times or seen Didio shepherd too many character/plot derailing stories/plots for me to really buy into the idea of 5G or that he really knew what he was doing.

[Gaius]

DC Comics Super Man and Lois Lane 1/6 Scale Diorama

[Vordan]

Tom King wants to write the Superman ongoing (skip to 1:34:00 mark)

Won’t lie I definitely wouldn’t mind seeing him take over after PKJ was done.

[The Frog Bros]

DC Comics Super Man and Lois Lane 1/6 Scale Diorama

This thing is a friggin masterpiece. Right down to the little details like Supe's physique/posture and Lois's notepad and pumps.

Tom King wants to write the Superman ongoing (skip to 1:34:00 mark)

Won’t lie I definitely wouldn’t mind seeing him take over after PKJ was done.

Yes please! Not sure if he'd be able to replicate Up in the Sky but I'd sure like to see him try with having the ongoing for a while...