Ben Reilly: Spider-Man/Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2022

[Sr. Bungle]

Besides that, Wells said he didin't want to do anything irreversible to the character so there's that. Not that I trust the spidey office 100%

[HypnoHustler]

He was a hero doing Axis and everyone was rooting for him. Hobgoblin was great too.

I didn’t read that, but imo Carnage in particular is irredeemable. He’s murdered kids for no reason but sadistic fun.

As for Hobgoblin, I guess I could see Phil Urich becoming a hero again since he was one before, but he did some pretty horrific and unforgivable acts as Hobby so that’s still a tough sell. Kingsley? No way. I’m generally not a huge fan of villains breaking good, with some notable exceptions like Sandman. It broke my heart when he went bad again. He worked as a good guy because the seeds of him potentially being good were always there. I don’t feel that way about Carnage, Hobby and most other bad guys.

[Sr. Bungle]

I didn’t read that, but imo Carnage in particular is irredeemable. He’s murdered kids for no reason but sadistic fun.

As for Hobgoblin, I guess I could see Phil Urich becoming a hero again since he was one before, but he did some pretty horrific and unforgivable acts as Hobby so that’s still a tough sell. Kingsley? No way. I’m generally not a huge fan of villains breaking good, with some notable exceptions like Sandman. It broke my heart when he went bad again. He worked as a good guy because the seeds of him potentially being good were always there. I don’t feel that way about Carnage, Hobby and most other bad guys.

I get that. But Ben was a hero twisted against his will. He was turned into another person by an evil corp. Kinda like Bucky.

[Webhead]

I didn’t read that, but imo Carnage in particular is irredeemable. He’s murdered kids for no reason but sadistic fun.

As for Hobgoblin, I guess I could see Phil Urich becoming a hero again since he was one before, but he did some pretty horrific and unforgivable acts as Hobby so that’s still a tough sell. Kingsley? No way. I’m generally not a huge fan of villains breaking good, with some notable exceptions like Sandman. It broke my heart when he went bad again. He worked as a good guy because the seeds of him potentially being good were always there. I don’t feel that way about Carnage, Hobby and most other bad guys.

The AXIS tie-ins were mostly tongue-in-cheek and played with the moral inversions of the villains brought by the magical accident in the main event. Carnage's book was basically black comedy because he felt guilt and a compulsion to do good, but he was terrible at it, and chose a random reporter to teach him how to be a hero, with the fact the woman was a bad and selfish person herself going completely over his head. Inverted Hobgoblin (Kingsley) was a more straightforward hero, but still completely full of himself and greedy, marketing junk with his image and outsorcing hero identities for a profit.

They are quite good minis, much better than the AXIS event itself.

[Refrax5]

I get that. But Ben was a hero twisted against his will. He was turned into another person by an evil corp. Kinda like Bucky.

Exactly. Pretty much nothing that's happened to Ben was really his fault and it's all pretty easily reversible. I definitely Ben would be haunted by guilt over his actions even if they were done 1) While his soul was broken and corrupted from something that wasn't his fault or b) a mental collapse caused by an evil corporation tampering with his brain. But Ben really isn't at fault for what he's become and he isn't in his right mind.

I think bringing Ben back from all that would give him some new existential angst to deal with and he'd still be a good guy.

[Refrax5]

I was going back through the thread and found this.

I thought I was the only one who had this theory. To this day, Ben's "death" in PP:SM #75 doesn't follow what was established about clone degeneration. IIRC, "Life of Reilly" mentioned that this was pointed out to Bob Harras. His response was that it doesn't matter how it used to work, this is how it works now. To me, this means nothing. Harras was always about the quickest and most senseless solution to complex problems. He forever damaged Norman Osborn as a character, botched the potential of tying the X-Books in with the first X-Men film, and he was behind a lot of the garbage decisions made at DC during the New 52.

If Marvel truly cared about Ben, we'd get Spider-Man: The Final Clone, a mini-series chronicling Ben's replacement by one final clone before Peter's fight with Norman in PP:SM #75, and the reveal that Ben is stored somewhere for future use. I'd be happy just knowing he was in stasis somewhere and that the Clone Conspiracy and all the garbage that's followed involved a clone of a clone's remains.

The problem is that more retcons and clones are the last thing this story needs. It isn't really Ben's fault what he became. He was the victim of outside forces, so it's not really that difficult to redeem him.

[Refrax5]

It seems that Peter still cares about Ben and wants to help him.

I thought that was a nice moment, in addition to Felicia saying that what happened to Ben is part of why Peter is so depressed. For whatever other problems this series has, I appreciate that it isn't like the post-Clone Saga era where Ben was rarely mentioned or referenced in a joking way, which always made Peter seem so callous. At least these days we see that he cares about Ben and is hurting over what happened.

[HypnoHustler]

I thought that was a nice moment, in addition to Felicia saying that what happened to Ben is part of why Peter is so depressed. For whatever other problems this series has, I appreciate that it isn't like the post-Clone Saga era where Ben was rarely mentioned or referenced in a joking way, which always made Peter seem so callous. At least these days we see that he cares about Ben and is hurting over what happened.

Anyone remember Peter’s “make an obscene clone fall” joke from the JMS days? A bit funny on the word play, but pretty messed up.

And Sr Bungle I agree with you about Ben. Just commenting more generally about villains redeeming themselves I guess.

[Huntsman Spider]

The AXIS tie-ins were mostly tongue-in-cheek and played with the moral inversions of the villains brought by the magical accident in the main event. Carnage's book was basically black comedy because he felt guilt and a compulsion to do good, but he was terrible at it, and chose a random reporter to teach him how to be a hero, with the fact the woman was a bad and selfish person herself going completely over his head. Inverted Hobgoblin (Kingsley) was a more straightforward hero, but still completely full of himself and greedy, marketing junk with his image and outsorcing hero identities for a profit.

They are quite good minis, much better than the AXIS event itself.

Yeah. I'd also throw in Superior Iron Man as a story that outshone the event it spun off from, insofar as, "People say Tony Stark is a ruthless, arrogant @$$hole who hasn't changed at all from who he was before he became Iron Man, so what would happen if that was really true?"

A Sensational Suit for an Amazing Legacy . . . a post-Spider Wars (the 90s TAS finale) short story focusing on Ben Reilly, the Scarlet Spider, and his POV in the wake of everything that happened to him. Hopefully, it works as a palate cleanser of sorts for what's been done to him in the comics.

[Sr. Bungle]

Yeah. I'd also throw in Superior Iron Man as a story that outshone the event it spun off from, insofar as, "People say Tony Stark is a ruthless, arrogant @$$hole who hasn't changed at all from who he was before he became Iron Man, so what would happen if that was really true?"

A Sensational Suit for an Amazing Legacy . . . a post-Spider Wars (the 90s TAS finale) short story focusing on Ben Reilly, the Scarlet Spider, and his POV in the wake of everything that happened to him. Hopefully, it works as a palate cleanser of sorts for what's been done to him in the comics.

You wrote that? It's great !

[Huntsman Spider]

You wrote that? It's great !

Not me, sadly. I had an idea for a more longform Ben Reilly story with him ending up in MC2 after "Revelations" and meeting his niece. One chapter done so far, with some tweaks awaiting, and thinking of releasing it as a tonic to Dark Web.

[Xwho]

i think this is a fair question. the internet is full of urban legends that sound right, and through constant repetition come to be the accepted "truth".

i don't recall any data on sales at the time from the horse's mouth. i have seen readers on both sides of the divide do their own amateur research and present numbers that...surprise surprise...back up their personal takes on how ben's reveal affected sales.

the life of reilly series seemed to imply removing ben as spider-man was a creative choice, not really sales driven. or at least, i couldn't find a definitive statement on sales at the time. glenn greenberg goes into detail here:



bob harris actually extended ben's run by six months, in order to not compete with the onslaught cross over at the time, but it at least suggests to me sales might not have been exactly hemorr*****g and that harris knew what a bump an event like a return of a major character would bring.

in this interview howard mackie says:



which seems to imply that it was again, creative over sales, which mackie describes as "ok". "ok" during an industry wide downturn is still something. that's if i'm reading howard right, maybe someone else will have a different take?

mackie also attributes ben's removal and peter's return to "creative cowardice" (at approx 47:47) when asked if it was due to sales in this interview
mackie then pitches how he sees things could have gone if marvel wasn't "genuinely afraid".

there might be more info and context that i'm missing and someone else can supply, but again, i think it's fair to ask. it's always been a bit murky.

What would have happed if they had not done this and kept going on with as the original Ben?
Would have sales have really gone that bad with fans and new readers? Please reply.

[boots]

What would have happed if they had not done this and kept going on with as the original Ben?
Would have sales have really gone that bad with fans and new readers? Please reply.

mate, i think people (me included) attempted to answer this a while ago

[boots]

He'll do some horrible things I'm sure. But even Venom is now a hero. Sabretooth was for a while. There's no thing such as "not going back" in comics.

not untrue, which kinda highlights my falling out of love with the current state of superhero comics: consequences ain't what they used to be.

which is something that i always dug about peter (and ben); because peter and ben were the exceptions. peter/ben's entire superhero arc was built on consequences and responsibility.

peter's still is afaik but ben's is out the window.

now we have this cake and eat it approach where heroes heel turn for "reasons out of their control" so we can watch them commit evil **** for x number of issues before reverting back to a forgiveable hero who only needs to suffer guilt by proxy. or we just flat out give them a magical fix and move on.

don't even get started on temporary redemption arcs for almost every villain.

my preference is either have your heel turned heroes face being murderers or don't make them murderers in the first place.

[Xwho]

not untrue, which kinda highlights my falling out of love with the current state of superhero comics: consequences ain't what they used to be.

which is something that i always dug about peter (and ben); because peter and ben were the exceptions. peter/ben's entire superhero arc was built on consequences and responsibility.

peter's still is afaik but ben's is out the window.

now we have this cake and eat it approach where heroes heel turn for "reasons out of their control" so we can watch them commit evil **** for x number of issues before reverting back to a forgiveable hero who only needs to suffer guilt by proxy. or we just flat out give them a magical fix and move on.

don't even get started on temporary redemption arcs for almost every villain.

my preference is either have your heel turned heroes face being murderers or don't make them murderers in the first place.

What are the chances that across the spider-verse will cause Ben to be turned good early than he would have otherwise and why?
Do you think he will go back to being the Scarlet Spider?
Why not do a mini series about when he was the Scarlet Spider or one from a alternate universe?

Please reply.