Ben Reilly: Spider-Man/Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2022

[HypnoHustler]

I'm curious: why don't you believe that Harry was intended to be the original mastermind? That always made sense to me while reading and I was thinking it was going to be Harry. The return of Norman was extremely forced. Much of his dialogue and motive felt more to me like it had been written for Harry until Bob Harras ordered the return of Norman. I still hate that Norman was resurrected and, like a certain former Robin at DC, I don't think there's been one story told that's justified his continued existence. Harry, on the other hand, had tons of potential, especially considering his friendship with Peter and their conflict before Harry's death.

My problem wasn't with Harry being the mastermind, but the general execution of the mini. It didn't deliver on what it advertised (like I said, it seemed like a stripped-down, speed-run version of the clone saga we got, with some minor plot alterations... rather than a daring different take on the saga that truly distinguished itself and justified its existence*). I agree that Harry could have worked as the mastermind. However, I think Harras was actually right to mandate Norman's return (and I don't take editorial's side often). Although it was painful to retcon his death, Norman has been a boon for the Marvel Universe since his return, especially in the 2000s when he was appearing in Thunderbolts, Dark Reign/ Dark Avengers, Marvel Knights, The Pulse, etc.
I also think PP:SM #75 was a mostly satisfactory climax to the clone saga. And now I can't imagine the MU without ole Norman.

*- now that I think about it, the best alternate take on the clone saga that I've seen was in the 'Life Story' mini.

[JustLuke]

My problem wasn't with Harry being the mastermind, but the general execution of the mini. It didn't deliver on what it advertised (like I said, it seemed like a stripped-down, speed-run version of the clone saga we got, with some minor plot alterations... rather than a daring different take on the saga that truly distinguished itself and justified its existence*). I agree that Harry could have worked as the mastermind. However, I think Harras was actually right to mandate Norman's return (and I don't take editorial's side often). Although it was painful to retcon his death, Norman has been a boon for the Marvel Universe since his return, especially in the 2000s when he was appearing in Thunderbolts, Dark Reign/ Dark Avengers, Marvel Knights, The Pulse, etc.
I also think PP:SM #75 was a mostly satisfactory climax to the clone saga. And now I can't imagine the MU without ole Norman.

*- now that I think about it, the best alternate take on the clone saga that I've seen was in the 'Life Story' mini.

Personally I think that honor has to go to Ultimate Spider-Man, though there is an argument that it's overall plot is more similar to the 70s clone saga and just takes element from the 90s clone saga. It gave me Ultimate Jessica Drew though so I'll always like it for that

[Lukmendes]

*- now that I think about it, the best alternate take on the clone saga that I've seen was in the 'Life Story' mini.

That one was too basic and I detest how Spidey lied to Ben just so he can stop being Spider-Man and live with MJ.

Then again, as much as I like Zdarsky's characterizations, after a while his take on Spidey was a big miss, and the story itself becoming boring does it no favors...

Personally I think that honor has to go to Ultimate Spider-Man, though there is an argument that it's overall plot is more similar to the 70s clone saga and just takes element from the 90s clone saga. It gave me Ultimate Jessica Drew though so I'll always like it for that

It does have more in common with the original yeah, but ultimately it's not really like either one.

Unlike the original, the story isn't about mocking toxic nostalgia or that Spidey really loves MJ at the end.

Unlike the 90's one, it lacks basically everything besides Peter getting stressed with its events, and a Ben stand-in.

Ultimately it's just a very stressful story for Spidey, and to give MJ more PTSD I guess lol.

I think it also brought back Gwen? I forget...

[Xwho]

Could have Ben Reilly have worked as the original Peter Parker if he took the Peter Parker name and the classic spider man costume as well as the clone sage being shorter, Kaine not killing Otto, no pregnancy unless Ben being the original works well enough, no replace the people of the world with clones plan, and finding out Ben is the original no more than two and a half months after Amazing Spider man 400 ?
I prefer Norman staying dead and Ben being the original.
PLEASE, PLEASE let know what you believe.

[Lukmendes]

Could have Ben Reilly have worked as the original Peter Parker if he took the Peter Parker name and the classic spider man costume as well as the clone sage being shorter, Kaine not killing Otto, no pregnancy unless Ben being the original works well enough, no replace the people of the world with clones plan, and finding out Ben is the original no more than two and a half months after Amazing Spider man 400 ?
I prefer Norman staying dead and Ben being the original.
PLEASE, PLEASE let know what you believe.

Trying to say that the Spidey we've seen since ASM#149 has been an impostor who has to leave wouldn't work at all, and Marvel actually trying to do in that in Clone Saga killed the sales of ASM rather quickly from what I hear.

[HypnoHustler]

That one was too basic and I detest how Spidey lied to Ben just so he can stop being Spider-Man and live with MJ.

Then again, as much as I like Zdarsky's characterizations, after a while his take on Spidey was a big miss, and the story itself becoming boring does it no favors...

I 100% disagree with your criticisms of it, but to each their own. I thought the series was the only truly great Spidey story of the last 5, heck maybe 10 years.

[Lukmendes]

I 100% disagree with your criticisms of it, but to each their own. I thought the series was the only truly great Spidey story of the last 5, heck maybe 10 years.

Aside from the first issue, I can't see the hype behind it at all, specially starting in the 80's issue with how many stories they shove in one comic making the comic itself spread too thin and barely comprehensible.

I remember hearing that each era was supposed to have more than one issue, that really would help in making the stories have breathing room, though, that wouldn't make Spidey any less of an asshole if he kept his overall attitude lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

Aside from the first issue, I can't see the hype behind it at all, specially starting in the 80's issue with how many stories they shove in one comic making the comic itself spread too thin and barely comprehensible.

I remember hearing that each era was supposed to have more than one issue, that really would help in making the stories have breathing room, though, that wouldn't make Spidey any less of an asshole if he kept his overall attitude lol.

Yeah, Zdarsky's idea was for each decade to be a miniseries unto itself, with "Life Story" being a maxiseries of sorts, though editorial convinced him to narrow it down to one oversized issue per decade. Still, with that in mind, it could be a framework for a solid "six seasons and a movie" TV series for Spider-Man, with each season adapting the events of each decade of his published existence.

[Xwho]

Trying to say that the Spidey we've seen since ASM#149 has been an impostor who has to leave wouldn't work at all, and Marvel actually trying to do in that in Clone Saga killed the sales of ASM rather quickly from what I hear.

Not even if the Peter married to Mary Jane became the new Scarlet Spider and kept having adventures as well as the clone saga not being drawn out and if spider man could survive one more day than why not with Ben Reilly being the original and taking back the Peter Parker name ?

[Lukmendes]

Yeah, Zdarsky's idea was for each decade to be a miniseries unto itself, with "Life Story" being a maxiseries of sorts, though editorial convinced him to narrow it down to one oversized issue per decade. Still, with that in mind, it could be a framework for a solid "six seasons and a movie" TV series for Spider-Man, with each season adapting the events of each decade of his published existence.

Yeah, a "Life Story" style cartoon could be pretty fun, though, problem is, TV series get extended when they shouldn't, and that could screw up the entire point of "Life Story".

Honestly, something that really would benefit from a "Life Story" style would be X-Men, considering what Claremont attempted with his run was to have characters age and retire (Though it's commonly theorized he wouldn't do that with his pet characters), and it could be interesting to see that being attempted with 'em considering how many characters X-Men have.

Not even if the Peter married to Mary Jane became the new Scarlet Spider and kept having adventures as well as the clone saga not being drawn out

Again, the problem is how dismissive the whole thing is, it's trying to say the Spidey since ASM#149 is a fake, someone to be dismissed for the new cool guy who's actually the original old guy to take over and steal his title.

Like, Ben fans themselves are annoyed with current Ben being called Ben just because he doesn't act like Ben, and what was going on with clone saga was basically "Let's make Spidey act like an annoying douche and make Ben act more like usual Spidey so fans can accept Spidey being replaced".

Like, imagine if we get something like that with Ben himself, Chasm isn't the real Ben, another clone who we'll call Richard is the real Ben, but this Richard guy doesn't have any of Ben's stories from after ASM#149, meaning everything that Ben fans liked from the 90's isn't there, wouldn't that be grossly disrespectful?

It's just not a good way to tell a story, and it's grossly disrespectful to Spidey, and it doesn't do Ben a lot of favors when what Marvel tried to make him interesting as a character could be like "He's like Spidey from the past, unlike this lame married asshole" lol.

and if spider man could survive one more day than why not with Ben Reilly being the original and taking back the Peter Parker name ?

I mean, Spidey surviving OMD doesn't mean more garbage has to be done on him.

Spidey is a big name, he can afford garbage stories, that doesn't mean they should be done to him.

I don't see any real benefits with making Ben the original besides toxic nostalgia, him taking over as Spider-Man could work in other ways, but not by disrespecting Spidey himself, which's one of the biggest problems with fucking Clone Saga... Although even these other ways would be difficult to make it work too, the point of someone else taking the title is to at least attempt in making the replacement different in some way, a literal clone doesn't do that much.

[Matt Rat]

Yeah, Zdarsky's idea was for each decade to be a miniseries unto itself, with "Life Story" being a maxiseries of sorts, though editorial convinced him to narrow it down to one oversized issue per decade. Still, with that in mind, it could be a framework for a solid "six seasons and a movie" TV series for Spider-Man, with each season adapting the events of each decade of his published existence.

They have botched it so much with the Life Story concept, the same could be said for how they went about the Fantastic Four version too. This could easily have been the new Ultimate Universe, only unlike Ultimate, it'd have less decompression (another thing that ruined Ultimate for me). It's little wonder Zdarsky's dipped one toe in the DC pool at this point.

[Refrax5]

Not even if the Peter married to Mary Jane became the new Scarlet Spider and kept having adventures as well as the clone saga not being drawn out and if spider man could survive one more day than why not with Ben Reilly being the original and taking back the Peter Parker name ?

I think the idea of him coming back into being Peter Parker after so long away would feel very forced and almost pointless. Part of what made Ben interesting was that he was a very different version of Peter with a very different backstory. I think Ben's own logic in the story is pretty solid: too much time had gone by and he had changed to much to go back to being Peter. As a Ben fan, I like him because he ISN'T Peter.

[Sr. Bungle]

I think the idea of him coming back into being Peter Parker after so long away would feel very forced and almost pointless. Part of what made Ben interesting was that he was a very different version of Peter with a very different backstory. I think Ben's own logic in the story is pretty solid: too much time had gone by and he had changed to much to go back to being Peter. As a Ben fan, I like him because he ISN'T Peter.

Yeah, I liked Ben for that too. Plus, that mullet and beard. And the scarlet spider costume.

[Sr. Bungle]

Trying to say that the Spidey we've seen since ASM#149 has been an impostor who has to leave wouldn't work at all, and Marvel actually trying to do in that in Clone Saga killed the sales of ASM rather quickly from what I hear.

Not really, there was a downward trend for all the comics industry after the speculator bubble busted. Sales were down, true. But it was all across the board. Ans Spider-Man was one of the comics that better fared during that time.

[Xwho]

Not really, there was a downward trend for all the comics industry after the speculator bubble busted. Sales were down, true. But it was all across the board. Ans Spider-Man was one of the comics that better fared during that time.

How did the clone saga effect sales and could have Ben Reilly still worked as the original if did not become the popular scarlet spider and changed his name back to Peter Parker ?
I could really like the idea that he was the original Peter Parker.