Ben Reilly: Spider-Man/Scarlet Spider Appreciation 2022

[Sr. Bungle]

https://monkeysfightingrobots.co/mar...-spider-man-4/

Issue 4 preview

Thanks.

Remember what they took from us fellow Ben brothers

[Huntsman Spider]

I usually do that, but the cut is still bleedin. I'll read it, but it'll be a bittersweet experiencia from now

Same here.

https://monkeysfightingrobots.co/mar...-spider-man-4/

Issue 4 preview

Thanks.

[Refrax5]

I'll allow that retcon

It's a terrible and nonsensical retcon that takes away half of Ben's tenure as Spider-Man.

[Pav]

https://monkeysfightingrobots.co/mar...-spider-man-4/

Issue 4 preview

This looks absolutely wonderful.

Cannot wait to read it.

-Pav, who loves Ben's perspective...

[Sr. Bungle]

It's a terrible and nonsensical retcon that takes away half of Ben's tenure as Spider-Man.

That depends when the switch happens

[Refrax5]

That depends when the switch happens

Well, if it happens in this story, we lose half of Ben's time as Spider-Man, his bonding with Peter, and ultimately nearly half the Ben Reilly stories that exist. It also means Spidercide is suddenly able to act normal and stable while thinking he's Ben, even though he was still violent and unstable when he thought he was Peter.

It also means we've been following another character we don't care about for half his existence and it's a huge ripoff. It means the Jackal couldn't tell it wasn't Ben when he brought him back, it means Spidercide had all of Ben's memories somehow, that the cosmic entity of Death was either lying or mistaken about Ben being who he was and somehow he faked healing his soul and saving the day in Spider-Geddon. It means hero Ben in Beyond wasn't him, despite again having memories only Ben would have and now Chasm is even more pointless.

It just messes way too much stuff up and complicates and screws up the character even more. The simplest solution is to just restore Ben's mind and make him a good guy again instead of screwing up and confusing his history even more. There's no way it can work on any practical level or in continuity. It makes no sense.

People seem to overlook that Ben's villainous phases weren't his fault. Both the corruption of his soul and his mind being tampered with and damaged were done TO him. You don't have to retcon anything. It's a lot simpler to just fix his mind and move on than to undo half the character's history with a retcon that doesn't work on any level.

[boots]

It also means we've been following another character we don't care about for half his existence and it's a huge ripoff.

i mean, kinda ironic considering what ben's reveal as actual peter parker meant in the 90s. i'd be fine with it just on that level. dat juicy meta

[boots]

This looks absolutely wonderful.

Cannot wait to read it.

-Pav, who loves Ben's perspective...

"however demented, however dangerous spidercide is..."

and? AND? c'mon gimme this book already.

[boots]

How very 'appreciative' of you

naww, i'm sure it's just zeitgeist showing his...uh...own brand of "appreciation" for the character

[Refrax5]

i mean, kinda ironic considering what ben's reveal as actual peter parker meant in the 90s. i'd be fine with it just on that level. dat juicy meta

Meta is really stupid when done badly, which this definitely would be. You're also overlooking the fact that saying the Peter of the past 20 years wasn't Peter was what caused a lot of people to turn on the story and Marvel walked it way back.

Also, as controversial as it was, it was done in a way that made sense and at least it was still a version of Peter. Spidercide is a character with an entirely different personality than Ben.

And, again, storywise, this would make no sense. Spidercide somehow has all of Ben's specific memories, is recognized by a cosmic entity as being Ben, etc? And what would even be the point?

[boots]

Meta is really stupid when done badly, which this definitely would be.

well, yes. anything done badly is...bad

i don't disagree

You're also overlooking the fact that saying the Peter of the past 20 years wasn't Peter was what caused a lot of people to turn on the story and Marvel walked it way back.

nope, that's exactly what i'd enjoy about this "reveal"

Also, as controversial as it was, it was done in a way that made sense and at least it was still a version of Peter. Spidercide is a character with an entirely different personality than Ben.

And, again, storywise, this would make no sense. Spidercide somehow has all of Ben's specific memories, is recognized by a cosmic entity as being Ben, etc? And what would even be the point?

it can be done. if professor zoom can come back thinking he's barry allen, or 4 supermen could possibly be clark returned then spidercide can have a million reasons for wrongly thinking he's ben whether we want to use the jackal, scrier or just wishing really really hard.

for me, the ben we've had since clone conspiracy has more in common with spidercide than ben reilly of the 90s.

it's ok man, it was only a half serious suggestion. if it happened, i'd be fine with it... but tbf i'm not that attached to either comics or ben these days, so it's an easy thing for me to say.

[Refrax5]

well, yes. anything done badly is...bad

i don't disagree



nope, that's exactly what i'd enjoy about this "reveal"

You would enjoy one bad idea being repeated with an even worse one?

it can be done. if professor zoom can come back thinking he's barry allen, or 4 supermen could possibly be clark returned then spidercide can have a million reasons for wrongly thinking he's ben whether we want to use the jackal, scrier or just wishing really really hard.

Those stories had a point and lasted briefly. This would invalidate a huge chunk of Ben's existence and most of his best Spider-Man stories for no real purpose. Like, what would this even accomplish? It also wouldn't explain how Spidercide would have all of Ben's exact memories or why Death would know it was his soul, how he was able to heal his soul, etc. It doesn't make any sense and, again, has no point.

for me, the ben we've had since clone conspiracy has more in common with spidercide than ben reilly of the 90s.

It's been said, but that was really only true during Clone Conspiracy and Scarlet Spider and they already gave a pretty airtight explanation as to why he was acting that way. And he got better and acted heroically and mostly like his old self ever since then. Beyond wasn't a well-written story but we had a heroic Ben being Spider-Man again and I don't want that thrown away on top of half his best 90s Spidey stories.

it's ok man, it was only a half serious suggestion. if it happened, i'd be fine with it... but tbf i'm not that attached to either comics or ben these days, so it's an easy thing for me to say.

I'm still pretty attached to him and this retcon would only muddy the waters further. The amount of **** they'd have to ignore and retcon for it to work is so much and it just damages the character more. You lose a lot of bad stories, but you lose the best ones too. Like I said, Ben being crazy or villainous was all done by outside forces so he's largely blameless and doesn't even need a redemption arc. All they have to do is restore his mind and he's back to his old self without invalidating anything or coming up with some absurd, overly complicated retcon.

Also, the idea of Ben being back to his old self and having to come to terms with the terrible things he did could make for some great drama and give more depth to him. It's not like we haven't had heroes go bananas and come back from it before (Tony Stark, Hal Jordan, recently Wally West, etc). I'm never in favor of going back and invalidating old stories, especially when a simpler solution is readily available.

[boots]

I'm still pretty attached to him and this retcon would only muddy the waters further. The amount of **** they'd have to ignore and retcon for it to work is so much and it just damages the character more. You lose a lot of bad stories, but you lose the best ones too.

i get your point and i'd normally argue the same but i think the horse has already bolted insofar as muddy continuity water. superhero comics and tv soap operas embraced convoluted retcons decades ago; it's practically a feature not a bug for those two genres.

Like I said, Ben being crazy or villainous was all done by outside forces so he's largely blameless and doesn't even need a redemption arc. All they have to do is restore his mind and he's back to his old self without invalidating anything or coming up with some absurd, overly complicated retcon.

i guess i don't see the difference between an absurd retcon and the absurd stories it would retcon. same same.

Also, the idea of Ben being back to his old self and having to come to terms with the terrible things he did could make for some great drama and give more depth to him. It's not like we haven't had heroes go bananas and come back from it before (Tony Stark, Hal Jordan, recently Wally West, etc). I'm never in favor of going back and invalidating old stories, especially when a simpler solution is readily available.

wait...wally went bad?

as for invalidating old stories, i don't see it that way. they still happened.

then again, i was one of the people who loved the reveal peter was the clone. it didn't make me love the character any less.

in fact, making the ben for the last few years into spidercide would make me appreciate the character even more.

[Matt Rat]

wait...wally went bad?.

He did (Heroes In Crisis) but they retconned all that too and took the blame entirely off him, and now he's the current Flash and happily married.

[Refrax5]

[QUOTE=boots;6028151]i'd normally argue the same but i think the horse has already bolted insofar as muddy continuity water. superhero comics and tv soap operas embraced convoluted retcons decades ago, it's practically a feature not a bug these days of those two genres.

[quote]
Like I said, Ben being crazy or villainous was all done by outside forces so he's largely blameless and doesn't even need a redemption arc. All they have to do is restore his mind and he's back to his old self without invalidating anything or coming up with some absurd, overly complicated retcon.

i guess i don't see the difference between an absurd retcon and the absurd stories it would retcon. same same.



wait...wally went bad?

as for invalidating old stories, i don't see it that way. they still happened.

then again, i was one of the people who loved the reveal peter was the clone. it didn't make me love the character any less.

in fact, making the ben for the last few years into spidercide would make me appreciate the character even more.

Some retcons are necessary and make sense. Even the Peter thing made sense. This wouldn't. It's bad writing on every level. And these stories couldn't possibly have happened with Ben the way they did if he was Spidercide. It's not just that it would retcon the bad stories. It would retcon them with a vastly dumber story AND it would retcon a ton of the stories that made people love Ben in the first place. It would diminish Ben as a character more than anything else. That's the problem. It doesn't make sense for it to be Spidercide on any level and it actually destroys a lot of Ben's development. It further ruins Ben's character for no purpose.

Like I said, certain retcons work, but this would literally be dumber and more confusing than anything that's been done with the character in the past few years. It would be so forced and dumb. Just because badly done retcons in comics have been done in comics before doesn't mean we should accept any horrible idea.

Like....it's a completely nonsensical idea that adds nothing unless you're really into Spidercide, I guess. It would remove most of Ben's time as Spider-Man to retcon stories that don't really need it. You can easily fix Ben without rewriting over half of his stories. You don't need some even dumber, convoluted story to do it. If you take away so many of his formative stories from the 90s, classic Ben isn't even classic Ben anymore. Like, why even care about him if the stories that made you like him were really some other lamer guy in disguise? Now 90s Ben is ruined too.

And yes. Wally accidentally killed a bunch of people, desecrated their corpses to stage a crime scene, framed two innocent people and then attempted suicide. It was very stupid and was quickly revealed to be the machinations of Savitar and Zoom messing with his powers and mind. They didn't suddenly say the Wally of the past 30 years was Chillblaine in disguise and the real Wally hasn't been seen since early in the Waid run.