Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[witchboy]

Maybe "self-insert" is the wrong word, but he's clearly designed to serve a strictly secondary character function like many love interests, but with the added burden of being reintroduced and newly promoted exclusively for that role - something good long term love interests lost a long time ago, and that often makes "throwback formulas" like the one Bernard is experiencing (outside of the bisexual aspect) more of a liability than an asset. More modern romance formulas require *both* characters to be engaging and for the relationship to make sense and work form both sides, meaning even initially secondary romance characters can become stars in their own right. Compare with how Rey in Star Wars was reduced to being Kylo's fangirl, and contrast with how Stephanie quickly grew beyond that romance role.

Fanfiction writers often focus on simple, older formulas rather than the more complex ones that we expect from professional writers - thus, fanfiction and fanfiction-style romances tend to be more myopic and bland on average (Tim and Bernard), and can become more toxic and disgusting at worst (Reylo).

Right now, Bernard is largely a strictly secondary character for a bland romance, likely because the writers themselves aren't really used to a bisexual romance and ar e playing it painfully safe.

Also, when it comes to TimKon, that's just the old cliche of a bromance being easily reconstrued as romantic in part because Western culture tends to be uncomfortable about close male relationships period. On the one hand, it doesn't mean there's no reason for the 'ship - there is an actual deep relationship already present, after all - but it also does play into how hard it can be for some audience members to see platonically close male relationships versus platonically close female relationships.

(yes, I know "LesYay" is a thing, I'm just noting the different cultural perspectives of it.)

I was shipping TimKon when DC had no queer male couples at all. So it's not just people not being able to see male platonic friendships - there's a lot of male platonic friendships in comics. Superman and Batman have had a team up book about their friendship for most of thier history. It was about having to interpret material through a queer lense if I wanted to see people like me in comics at all.
There's a reason why TimKon is so popular. The characters have chemsitry, history. The people who denied there was something to the relationship denied that either Tim or Kon were queer. Now here we are with Tim dating a guy, it doesn't seem so strange.
Even now there's not exactly a lot of male couples, and TimKon is a more interesting possibility than the other options, with the exception of Midnighter and Apollo. It's ok for queer men to want to see themselves represented and honestly, Jon and Jay and Tim and Bernard, as glad as I am to have them, don't spark the same excitement that Tim and Kon would. The problem being that Bernard, and Jay aren't that interesting as characters on their own. Yet. Possibly they can be developed better with time and care.

[InfamousBG]

I do not post here much but Tim Drake was my Robin growing up. Yes I loved Dick and Jason but I am 40 years old and when I was young Tim was introduced and I fell in love. Such a great character just wish they would use him better these days.

[Frontier]

I was shipping TimKon when DC had no queer male couples at all. So it's not just people not being able to see male platonic friendships - there's a lot of male platonic friendships in comics. Superman and Batman have had a team up book about their friendship for most of thier history. It was about having to interpret material through a queer lense if I wanted to see people like me in comics at all.
There's a reason why TimKon is so popular. The characters have chemsitry, history. The people who denied there was something to the relationship denied that either Tim or Kon were queer. Now here we are with Tim dating a guy, it doesn't seem so strange.
Even now there's not exactly a lot of male couples, and TimKon is a more interesting possibility than the other options, with the exception of Midnighter and Apollo. It's ok for queer men to want to see themselves represented and honestly, Jon and Jay and Tim and Bernard, as glad as I am to have them, don't spark the same excitement that Tim and Kon would. The problem being that Bernard, and Jay aren't that interesting as characters on their own. Yet. Possibly they can be developed better with time and care.

Yeah, but developed as well as Tim and Steph were, though?

TimKon at least has history behind it but I don't think they'd ever go there.

[godisawesome]

I was shipping TimKon when DC had no queer male couples at all. So it's not just people not being able to see male platonic friendships - there's a lot of male platonic friendships in comics. Superman and Batman have had a team up book about their friendship for most of thier history. It was about having to interpret material through a queer lense if I wanted to see people like me in comics at all.
There's a reason why TimKon is so popular. The characters have chemsitry, history. The people who denied there was something to the relationship denied that either Tim or Kon were queer. Now here we are with Tim dating a guy, it doesn't seem so strange.
Even now there's not exactly a lot of male couples, and TimKon is a more interesting possibility than the other options, with the exception of Midnighter and Apollo. It's ok for queer men to want to see themselves represented and honestly, Jon and Jay and Tim and Bernard, as glad as I am to have them, don't spark the same excitement that Tim and Kon would. The problem being that Bernard, and Jay aren't that interesting as characters on their own. Yet. Possibly they can be developed better with time and care.

Yeah, but developed as well as Tim and Steph were, though?

TimKon at least has history behind it but I don't think they'd ever go there.

I think the point is that the two biggest variables someone would want for a quality pairing are already present in both Tim with Kon and Tim with Steph:

1. Independent characters who can stand alone but are also force multipliers when paired together (platonically or not).

2. A relationship that contains genuine emotional intimacy.

The second is something that multiple version of Batman and Superman's bromance have lacked, but that Tim and Kon did and do have in competent hands, and was the reason why Steph became Tim's most successful (straight) romantic interest. TimKon shippers thus at least have one solid reason to apply a queer lens to TimKon over other relationship possibilities: that potential relationship at least has a positive and reciprocal emotional basis already. That's not true for a lot of fictional relationships, regardless of whatever other traits they have.

What's missing to most non-TimKon shippers is "romantic chemistry"... a notoriously subjective element that's often formed more by the audience of comic characters than it is by the characters and writing themselves. Sometimes, this desire can get nasty or toxic if it's revealed to emerge in a biased or twisted fashion - like how Reylo fans in Star Wars are clearly fans of Adam Driver rather than of the story they're watching, and tend to have some sexist and racist elements behind their support for it. However, just as many shipping fans bring a positive projection onto the story, and I'd argue TimKon is an example of that

An advantage Steph has is that she's an attractive female character with a charismatic personality, so straight audience members were more likely to be drawn to her than to Adriana as a romantic option, and as straight audience members, they were the group most frequently catered to. Steph of course became a solid, cult favorite character on her own merit as well, so she sets the standard by which Tim's romantic interests are judged... which is why Bernard is swimming even more against the current as a queer representative romance option - the standard set by Steph as a romance option is highly demanding, and a strictly supporting character may not be able to match her.

...Which is one reason why Tim and Kon would potentially have been a more interesting and better matchup for that cause. Kon is better "competition" for Steph in that light.

Now yes, we can all see that DC seems unlikely to "go there" with Tim and Kon... but if the idea was to go there with Tim, and if the idea elsewhere was to go there with a Superman Family character... it does seem wasteful to invent two supporting characters who are going to struggle to "get over" with the audience, particularly if their deployment requires taking risks with their main characters (see: Tim breaking up with a beloved romantic interest for a less interesting one, Jon being aged out of the successful portrayal he already had).

It fits an unfortunate pattern of DC at times tending towards shallow pandering for representation when more committed representative practices would likely save them time and effort while also producing more usable assets.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I think the point is that the two biggest variables someone would want for a quality pairing are already present in both Tim with Kon and Tim with Steph:

1. Independent characters who can stand alone but are also force multipliers when paired together (platonically or not).

2. A relationship that contains genuine emotional intimacy.

The second is something that multiple version of Batman and Superman's bromance have lacked, but that Tim and Kon did and do have in competent hands, and was the reason why Steph became Tim's most successful (straight) romantic interest. TimKon shippers thus at least have one solid reason to apply a queer lens to TimKon over other relationship possibilities: that potential relationship at least has a positive and reciprocal emotional basis already. That's not true for a lot of fictional relationships, regardless of whatever other traits they have.

What's missing to most non-TimKon shippers is "romantic chemistry"... a notoriously subjective element that's often formed more by the audience of comic characters than it is by the characters and writing themselves. Sometimes, this desire can get nasty or toxic if it's revealed to emerge in a biased or twisted fashion - like how Reylo fans in Star Wars are clearly fans of Adam Driver rather than of the story they're watching, and tend to have some sexist and racist elements behind their support for it. However, just as many shipping fans bring a positive projection onto the story, and I'd argue TimKon is an example of that

An advantage Steph has is that she's an attractive female character with a charismatic personality, so straight audience members were more likely to be drawn to her than to Adriana as a romantic option, and as straight audience members, they were the group most frequently catered to. Steph of course became a solid, cult favorite character on her own merit as well, so she sets the standard by which Tim's romantic interests are judged... which is why Bernard is swimming even more against the current as a queer representative romance option - the standard set by Steph as a romance option is highly demanding, and a strictly supporting character may not be able to match her.

...Which is one reason why Tim and Kon would potentially have been a more interesting and better matchup for that cause. Kon is better "competition" for Steph in that light.

Now yes, we can all see that DC seems unlikely to "go there" with Tim and Kon... but if the idea was to go there with Tim, and if the idea elsewhere was to go there with a Superman Family character... it does seem wasteful to invent two supporting characters who are going to struggle to "get over" with the audience, particularly if their deployment requires taking risks with their main characters (see: Tim breaking up with a beloved romantic interest for a less interesting one, Jon being aged out of the successful portrayal he already had).

It fits an unfortunate pattern of DC at times tending towards shallow pandering for representation when more committed representative practices would likely save them time and effort while also producing more usable assets.

Really? People on twitter/tumblr/webtoon seem to love Bernard and act like he is Tim's greatest relationship despite it not even being a thing yet.........

[godisawesome]

Really? People on twitter/tumblr/webtoon seem to love Bernard and act like he is Tim's greatest relationship despite it not even being a thing yet.........

That particular demographic is a highly creative one looking more for muses than for characters, and Bernard is an "official" muse - if Kon were "officially" paried with Tim, he'd swamp most of Bernard's fans - except for probably the SuperMartian fans. The concept the character represents overwhelms any actual calculus about the character. That crowd is most hyped when they're allowed to construct and create their own things regardless of what the official canon version is - and sometimes, they weirdly seem colder on something when it becomes actual canon and doesn't fulfil their (sometimes one dimensionally myopic) imagination

It's the more positive version of how people on the Twitter/Tumblr crowd are all huge fans of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, but can't seem to analyze or reckon with the actual character, and don't really give oyu an accurate idea of the fact that Kylo stopped being a hit with the larger audience right when he became their sadboi in TLJ- at least Bernard fans aren't flagrantly embracing racist and sexist tropes left, right, and center.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

That particular demographic is a highly creative one looking more for muses than for characters, and Bernard is an "official" muse - if Kon were "officially" paried with Tim, he'd swamp most of Bernard's fans - except for probably the SuperMartian fans.

I wonder why they never saw Bea, or Tam as muses. Hmmmmmm.......

[Ascended]

Tim Drake was my Robin growing up. Yes I loved Dick and Jason but I am 40 years old and when I was young Tim was introduced and I fell in love. Such a great character just wish they would use him better these days.

Same. Tim had just finished his....second?....mini when I got into comics, and while I knew DickRobin from stuff like Super Friends and Adam West's Batman, Tim was the Robin of my early comic reading, and he was one of my favorite characters. Still would be, if his treatment hadn't gone downhill so badly after Damian showed up.

So, how has Tim's treatment in Urban Legends or whatever it is been? I'm not reading any Bat books except Nightwing so I've missed it. I've heard all about it of course, and Tim coming out and dating Bernard. But how has it been? I hear Tim's story has basically just been a romance comic, which I've no interest in (regardless of orientation). Has it been as bad as all that, or has Tim been doing proper superheroic things and that stuff has just been drowned out by the bi thing?

And I gotta say, the TimKon thing....I never saw it. Not from Conner's end. Now, when Conner died and Tim lost his mind, and tried cloning him and all that? Oh yeah, that was not how you handle the death of your BFF and I can totally see Tim having a thing for Conner. But I've never gotten a LBGT vibe from Conner. And with Jon being bi, I feel like repeating the same thing with Conner would just push both closer to redundancy.

Maybe Tim and Jon can start dating. That'd piss off a lot of Damian fans, but I suspect it'd be funny as hell.

[Frontier]

So, how has Tim's treatment in Urban Legends or whatever it is been? I'm not reading any Bat books except Nightwing so I've missed it. I've heard all about it of course, and Tim coming out and dating Bernard. But how has it been? I hear Tim's story has basically just been a romance comic, which I've no interest in (regardless of orientation). Has it been as bad as all that, or has Tim been doing proper superheroic things and that stuff has just been drowned out by the bi thing?

From my recollection pretty much surface-level, vanilla, stuff. I wouldn't call it a romance comic but there hasn't been much depth to it.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

From my recollection pretty much surface-level, vanilla, stuff. I wouldn't call it a romance comic but there hasn't been much depth to it.

WFA seems to think there was enough to include and make it a two-parter it despite them saying they'd wait to see how it played it out more............Then again it is Webtoon.

[Aahz]

From my recollection pretty much surface-level, vanilla, stuff. I wouldn't call it a romance comic but there hasn't been much depth to it.

And he hasn't really had much appearances since that story.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

And he hasn't really had much appearances since that story.

Honestly people pushing him and acting like he is so great and Tim's best relationship makes me roll my eyes as his relationship with Tim is barely a thing. It's forced.

[Aahz]

I was referring to Tim not Bernard.

Bernard is likely anyway not going to do much, judging by past civilian love interests. Those have never really stuck in case of Batfamily members.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I was referring to Tim not Bernard.

Bernard is likely anyway not going to do much, judging by past civilian love interests. Those have never really stuck in case of Batfamily members.

Given how there appears to be an attempt to shill and push him, I hope you're right.

[Ascended]

From my recollection pretty much surface-level, vanilla, stuff. I wouldn't call it a romance comic but there hasn't been much depth to it.

That's what I figured. I hear Bernard got kidnapped and Tim rescued him or something? So not *purely* a romance story, but close.

I'll happily grab Tim's book when the main driver of the story isn't who he's dating (man or woman). I heard something about him being a big player in a upcoming Batman run, or something?