Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[witchboy]

I think the problem is they've spotlighted and developed Tim and Steph's relationship and commitment for each other too much for it to be believable that he's full gay or even to the point where he would need to break up with her to explore his sexuality. The material just doesn't build up to it that way, unless committing to Tim being LGBTQ+ means continually throwing his relationship with Steph under the bus because he wasn't really sexually attracted to her or has instead moved onto a character that seems functionally like a male equivalent to her.

I would've preferable a Tim and Conner relationship, that at least had some history and build up to it. At the least I think it's believable that Tim was in love with Conner.
There are gay men who've had long term loving relationships with women before coming out, so Tim being gay wouldn't be an impossible option. I'd find it more reasonable that he and Steph broke up at least. I can see where they're probably going to hand wave a vague Tim needing to find himself reason to break up with her, but it feels less organic to me that a bi Tim would've broken up with her so casually.
It's a shame that Zdarsky doesn't seem interested in really exploring Tim's personal life because I think he'd do a great job sorting out the things we should've seen but didn't.

[Frontier]

I would've preferable a Tim and Conner relationship, that at least had some history and build up to it. At the least I think it's believable that Tim was in love with Conner.
There are gay men who've had long term loving relationships with women before coming out, so Tim being gay wouldn't be an impossible option. I'd find it more reasonable that he and Steph broke up at least. I can see where they're probably going to hand wave a vague Tim needing to find himself reason to break up with her, but it feels less organic to me that a bi Tim would've broken up with her so casually.
It's a shame that Zdarsky doesn't seem interested in really exploring Tim's personal life because I think he'd do a great job sorting out the things we should've seen but didn't.

I think people look too much into the Conner thing because they've never read to me as anything other than best friends to me, but I know that's a contention point among fans.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just not narratively rewarding unless you care more about his LGBTQ+ status than his relationship with Steph.

[Konja7]

I do suspect they'll hedge their bets and say he's bi. I think at least part of that is some readers won't understand that a gay person can date the opposite sex before coming out and still actually be gay.

I don't think this is a big problem for DC, since they have shown Alan Scott (who was married with a woman and having kids) coming out as gay in Justice Society.

Also, the concept that gay men date women to pretend they aren't gay is quite well known by audiences.

The main reason why they would choose bi for Tim is because they don't want to throw his relationship with Stephanie under the bus.

[witchboy]

I think people look too much into the Conner thing because they've never read to me as anything other than best friends to me, but I know that's a contention point among fans.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just not narratively rewarding unless you care more about his LGBTQ+ status than his relationship with Steph.

I’m looking at it as caring more about his relationship with Conner than with Bernard.
Tim being with any woman now doesn’t seem to be likely.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I’m looking at it as caring more about his relationship with Conner than with Bernard.
Tim being with any woman now doesn’t seem to be likely.

I think it seems to early to make that judgement. DC and other sutff has been labelling him as bi as his pride special labels him as that and even Fitzmartin implies he still has feelings for Steph. So I don't think they are off the table for good. Dark Crisis YJ also references his relationship with Cassie (ugh) in the preview.

I don't think this is a big problem for DC, since they have shown Alan Scott (who was married with a woman and having kids) coming out as gay in Justice Society.

Also, the concept that gay men date women to pretend they aren't gay is quite well known by audiences.

The main reason why they would choose bi for Tim is because they don't want to throw his relationship with Stephanie under the bus.

WFA seems to be throwing his relationship with Steph under the bus though. I'll wait till the pride special to see if DC does but I personally don't have much confidence given Fitzmartin saying she likes War Games.

I think people look too much into the Conner thing because they've never read to me as anything other than best friends to me, but I know that's a contention point among fans.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just not narratively rewarding unless you care more about his LGBTQ+ status than his relationship with Steph.

Yeah same here. I never saw the TimKon thing as they seemed no closer than Dick and Wally, or Dick and Roy. I know people cite the cloning thing but aside from it being a stupid plot (along with the cult Cassie was part of which was worse), it seems to be more due to Tim not being well after losing so many people and Conner being the most recent one made it more raw and as a clone he could viably be brought back without any mystic stuff. Other stuff showed when he had the chance to bring back others as well aside from Conner he would do so and in the future once he cloned Conner he would also clone Bart.

I don't really buy the idea that Tim was having confidence issues because he hadn't embraced or explored his sexuality or that Tim specifically is suddenly a sign that the Batfamily deserves to be happy beyond "the mission" since we get that practically every run now.

But I guess we're still in the phase of pushing this Bernard relationship as far as it can go.

Yep same here. Detective Comics Rebirth just had that arc with Tim being happy beyond the mission with regards to college and Steph. Not to mention the story in UL really felt like we were thrust into the middle of it and having it resolved very quickly rather than seeing proper buildup for it feel believable about Tim's insecurities and Bernard resolving them.

[Frontier]

I’m looking at it as caring more about his relationship with Conner than with Bernard.
Tim being with any woman now doesn’t seem to be likely.

I care about Tim's relationship with Conner too, but I only see it as a friendship.

It's going to be a hard sell (beyond the appeal of diversity) trying to give Tim a significant romance that's not with Steph, but I feel like diversity is the main reason they're pushing Bernard as hard as they are.

[ZuLuLu]

I care about Tim's relationship with Conner too, but I only see it as a friendship.

It's going to be a hard sell (beyond the appeal of diversity) trying to give Tim a significant romance that's not with Steph, but I feel like diversity is the main reason they're pushing Bernard as hard as they are.

I am not saying it going to work out in the long run or not with Bernard, but the idea of Tim with Bernard is more popular than Jon and Jay and Jackson and his love interest. This may be because the Batfamily is generally more popular. Now things might change and Tim's story with Bernard continues and who Bernard is in cannon might become more or less popular that the one in fannon but the one fandom is creating is well liked so it may not be a hard sell as fans of other pairing might think.

While I think Steph is still popular, it seems that the majority of fans have moved past her relationship with Tim. This maybe because the idea of Tim and Kon (I don't ship them) is more popular than Tim and Steph, Tim coming out as bi have given them hope that that section of the fandom hope that, that ship is possible.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I am not saying it going to work out in the long run or not with Bernard, but the idea of Tim with Bernard is more popular than Jon and Jay and Jackson and his love interest. This may be because the Batfamily is generally more popular. Now things might change and Tim's story with Bernard continues and who Bernard is in cannon might become more or less popular that the one in fannon but the one fandom is creating is well liked so it may not be a hard sell as fans of other pairing might think.

While I think Steph is still popular, it seems that the majority of fans have moved past her relationship with Tim. This maybe because the idea of Tim and Kon (I don't ship them) is more popular than Tim and Steph, Tim coming out as bi have given them hope that that section of the fandom hope that, that ship is possible.

What? Are you sure it is popular? It literally just started and is barely even seen and Bernard is barely a character at this point. There is no substance to the relationship so far or Berard himself. If so then why is it so liked already when again it is pretty much nothing at this point. I guess people really like two white boys together.

From what I've seen Timsteph is still popular and Tim's preferred choice and rivals Timkon, so it doesn't seem to me there has been a move on. What circles are you frequenting? Twitter/Tumblr? I don't think they are that representative of overalls fans in general.....

[Frontier]

I think people are more invested in what Bernard represents than Bernard himself.

[godisawesome]

The big messaging advantage Tim has over Jon and Jay and Jackson is that he’s simply been established for so much longer than they have - thus he makes a bigger statement than they do in the sense of “it matters,” especially since it *can,* rightly or wrongly, feel like Jackson only had his post-Brightest Day hiatus ended because he could be a message character, and it can feel like Jon got “adulted” up for the same reason.

There is a good reason to push for inclusivity, and specific inclusivity at that.

It’s just that, in general, when largely straight authors try and do that as their main goal with a character, it starts to feel like an exclusively marketing move, a la Dan Didio’s usual reason for pushing inclusivity in some areas but never having the foresight to really use what he already had. Bernard seems to be carrying that specific aspect right now in his relationship with Tim, which can make him feel like a bit of a dubious character to push if his message could ostensibly be pushed without him - though we also can all see that a bisexual character can have that forgotten about once they’re back with a opposite sex interest (Catwoman.)

I mean, yes, as much as the Tim and Kon relationship is also a product of a more yaoi-happy internet community than it is a specifically backed up reading of the comics they shared (which is its own thing to talk about, given pop cultures issues with male relationships period), it would also have made a larger statement with two characters who’ve been established for decades and are both larger than the message… while both also have popular enough opposite sex romantic interests to make pushing either as bisexual require dedication and repetition, the very thing that is leading Bernard to seem more like an “insert character” from fanfiction than a true supporting cast member.

Seriously, one of the most annoying things about internet ‘shipping is how much those fans want “insert characters” without distinct personalities - it’s part of the reason the Reylo fans for Star Wars are shitty Rey fans, since they don’t want her to have a perspective or personality outside of her function in letting them focus on Kylo/Ben Solo. Bernard needs a distinct personality to last, because otherwise, like Rey, he’ll just become background chatter for ‘shippers who donkt really care about him, or he needs a better replacement as a message tool.

[ShadowSJG]

The big messaging advantage Tim has over Jon and Jay and Jackson is that he’s simply been established for so much longer than they have - thus he makes a bigger statement than they do in the sense of “it matters,” especially since it *can,* rightly or wrongly, feel like Jackson only had his post-Brightest Day hiatus ended because he could be a message character, and it can feel like Jon got “adulted” up for the same reason.

There is a good reason to push for inclusivity, and specific inclusivity at that.

It’s just that, in general, when largely straight authors try and do that as their main goal with a character, it starts to feel like an exclusively marketing move, a la Dan Didio’s usual reason for pushing inclusivity in some areas but never having the foresight to really use what he already had. Bernard seems to be carrying that specific aspect right now in his relationship with Tim, which can make him feel like a bit of a dubious character to push if his message could ostensibly be pushed without him - though we also can all see that a bisexual character can have that forgotten about once they’re back with a opposite sex interest (Catwoman.)

I mean, yes, as much as the Tim and Kon relationship is also a product of a more yaoi-happy internet community than it is a specifically backed up reading of the comics they shared (which is its own thing to talk about, given pop cultures issues with male relationships period), it would also have made a larger statement with two characters who’ve been established for decades and are both larger than the message… while both also have popular enough opposite sex romantic interests to make pushing either as bisexual require dedication and repetition, the very thing that is leading Bernard to seem more like an “insert character” from fanfiction than a true supporting cast member.

Seriously, one of the most annoying things about internet ‘shipping is how much those fans want “insert characters” without distinct personalities - it’s part of the reason the Reylo fans for Star Wars are shitty Rey fans, since they don’t want her to have a perspective or personality outside of her function in letting them focus on Kylo/Ben Solo. Bernard needs a distinct personality to last, because otherwise, like Rey, he’ll just become background chatter for ‘shippers who donkt really care about him, or he needs a better replacement as a message tool.

So Bernard is literally just a self insert?
Also, so TimKon is folks just shipping and misreading right?

[Aahz]

The big messaging advantage Tim has over Jon and Jay and Jackson is that he’s simply been established for so much longer than they have - thus he makes a bigger statement than they do in the sense of “it matters,” especially since it *can,*

I think it might have mattered If they had done it about 15 years ago, but unfortunately Tim and his generation have had a massive decline in relevance post Flashpoint, and I think he is as much as the other you named in danger of just being the "mandatory token LGBT member" of his franchise.

And honestly if Tim would still matter, I'm sceptical that DC had made that change, and if they had made it, it wouldn't have been done in the way it was done (in a back up story of an anthology, with not much of a follow up, and with the Jon Kent coming out so soon after it).

[godisawesome]

So Bernard is literally just a self insert?
Also, so TimKon is folks just shipping and misreading right?

Maybe "self-insert" is the wrong word, but he's clearly designed to serve a strictly secondary character function like many love interests, but with the added burden of being reintroduced and newly promoted exclusively for that role - something good long term love interests lost a long time ago, and that often makes "throwback formulas" like the one Bernard is experiencing (outside of the bisexual aspect) more of a liability than an asset. More modern romance formulas require *both* characters to be engaging and for the relationship to make sense and work form both sides, meaning even initially secondary romance characters can become stars in their own right. Compare with how Rey in Star Wars was reduced to being Kylo's fangirl, and contrast with how Stephanie quickly grew beyond that romance role.

Fanfiction writers often focus on simple, older formulas rather than the more complex ones that we expect from professional writers - thus, fanfiction and fanfiction-style romances tend to be more myopic and bland on average (Tim and Bernard), and can become more toxic and disgusting at worst (Reylo).

Right now, Bernard is largely a strictly secondary character for a bland romance, likely because the writers themselves aren't really used to a bisexual romance and ar e playing it painfully safe.

Also, when it comes to TimKon, that's just the old cliche of a bromance being easily reconstrued as romantic in part because Western culture tends to be uncomfortable about close male relationships period. On the one hand, it doesn't mean there's no reason for the 'ship - there is an actual deep relationship already present, after all - but it also does play into how hard it can be for some audience members to see platonically close male relationships versus platonically close female relationships.

(yes, I know "LesYay" is a thing, I'm just noting the different cultural perspectives of it.)

[Konja7]

Also, when it comes to TimKon, that's just the old cliche of a bromance being easily reconstrued as romantic in part because Western culture tends to be uncomfortable about close male relationships period. On the one hand, it doesn't mean there's no reason for the 'ship - there is an actual deep relationship already present, after all - but it also does play into how hard it can be for some audience members to see platonically close male relationships versus platonically close female relationships.

This isn't only a Western thing. It happens in the media of East culture too.

You can see this situation with many close friendships between boys in manga/anime that (female) Asian fans take as shipping material.

[godisawesome]

I thought as much, but as a Westerner, I only felt comfortable talking about the west.