Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Just from the previews I always got the sense that something was off about the writing and characterization, but that's probably because I've read a lot of the comics it's citing and not quite getting the context and events of them right.

You're spot on. The book is fabricating events and contexts that didn't even exist just for the sake of drama or making a point, but it comes across as shallow, mean-spirited, and self-congragulatory. Like if the book is attacking a context that didn't even exists in the actual series that was being reference what is the purpose?

[Light of Justice]

The review felt like it didn't hit what was wrong with the issue and just gave praise without really deep insight into the issue. It just told us what happens, gave a brief commentary and that's it.

I think this review highlights more of the flaws with the issue:

https://batman-news.com/2022/07/19/d...tice-2-review/

Thanks for the URL. Nice review. I don't follow Dark Crisis YJ at all yet my twitter dashboard filled with meltdown of recent issue of that book. Happy to understand what's happen without making it too spoilery and certainly less.... unhinged explanation than what I've stumbled on Twitter.

[Restingvoice]

In the beginning of Dark Crisis Young Justice, Cassie was portrayed to hating her team mates, maybe as an expression of grief, which then lead her to regret it when they disappear

So now I'm trying to figure out why they made the YJ dream world so weird, different and mean, as Bart said

--

The main premise of the story seems to be the YJ is lost and don't know what to do in the present because of the canonical in-story reboots placing them in an awkward situation where they feel unneeded, and so they're targeted by a dream world back in the day when they thrived. They would then realize something is wrong and the goal is to go back to the present but they will be tempted to stay because it's the good old days.

Based on this premise, the team is supposed to find out that the nostalgic past isn't what it's cracked up to be, since there have been some developments since then that they will miss, for example, Barry returning and the Flash family expanding, Conner maturing and getting less self absorbed, Tim getting closer to Bruce becoming father and son, and all of them got more respect as they grew.

So the world should give them what they think they want, while at the same time made them realize that there are drawbacks from that

The world shouldn't make Tim think that Batman is homophobic, it should make Tim remember how much Bruce kept him at arms length at the time because Jason just died, and it should made Tim miss their current father son relationship.

--

So why is the dream world that's supposed to keep them happy being so weird? It doesn't make sense for the premise

We know that all the wrong things happening are supposed to be perceived as the dream world getting it wrong. Bart says so, "this is not even our past".

The dream world got it wrong, but why? It shouldn't got things wrong if the goal is to trap them there.

Even if it did get things wrong, like Clark's world have him by Jon's side all the time as he grew up, it should be a wrong thing that makes them want to stay, not make them want to leave

In other words, rather than saying Tim's just having a phase, Batman should be supportive and he should act like a caring father, not just a mentor, which should clue Tim that this past got it wrong

Going back to the Cassie characterization mentioned above, there should be a purpose for this portrayal in the story

I just don't know what right now

Unless the dream world is saying that Tim secretly want to be with Steph and that he secretly believe that this is just a phase

Wouldn't that be funny

[NOCTPHOENIX]

In the beginning of Dark Crisis Young Justice, Cassie was portrayed to hating her team mates, maybe as an expression of grief, which then lead her to regret it when they disappear

So now I'm trying to figure out why they made the YJ dream world so weird, different and mean, as Bart said

--

The main premise of the story seems to be the YJ is lost and don't know what to do in the present because of the canonical in-story reboots placing them in an awkward situation where they feel unneeded, and so they're targeted by a dream world back in the day when they thrived. They would then realize something is wrong and the goal is to go back to the present but they will be tempted to stay because it's the good old days.

Based on this premise, the team is supposed to find out that the nostalgic past isn't what it's cracked up to be, since there have been some developments since then that they will miss, for example, Barry returning and the Flash family expanding, Conner maturing and getting less self absorbed, Tim getting closer to Bruce becoming father and son, and all of them got more respect as they grew.

So the world should give them what they think they want, while at the same time made them realize that there are drawbacks from that

The world shouldn't make Tim think that Batman is homophobic, it should make Tim remember how much Bruce kept him at arms length at the time because Jason just died, and it should made Tim miss their current father son relationship.

--

So why is the dream world that's supposed to keep them happy being so weird? It doesn't make sense for the premise

We know that all the wrong things happening are supposed to be perceived as the dream world getting it wrong. Bart says so, "this is not even our past".

The dream world got it wrong, but why? It shouldn't got things wrong if the goal is to trap them there.

Even if it did get things wrong, like Clark's world have him by Jon's side all the time as he grew up, it should be a wrong thing that makes them want to stay, not make them want to leave

In other words, rather than saying Tim's just having a phase, Batman should be supportive and he should act like a caring father, not just a mentor, which should clue Tim that this past got it wrong

Going back to the Cassie characterization mentioned above, there should be a purpose for this portrayal in the story

I just don't know what right now

Unless the dream world is saying that Tim secretly want to be with Steph and that he secretly believe that this is just a phase

Wouldn't that be funny

I mean Tim can want to be with Steph but also not be in a phase as bi people are attracted to both genders, but Fitzmartin doesn't seem to get that.

As for everything else you are spot on how bizarre it is. The dreamworld is claimed to represent the past, but comes across as a caricature of it that Fitzmartin is jabbing. It's like she's inventing a past that never existed just to make a point, but it falls flat as again it is entirely fabricated. It's like she's telling the readers "this is what the past was like" when it really wasn't...........

[Username taken]

It's dangerous when editors do NOT do their jobs.




Once again a real editor would stop that mess.

Because when YJ started Tim did not KNOW Bernard.

In fact YJ was DONE in 8/2003.

Bernard showed up Feb 2004.

Between this and the Miles Morales fiasco, it seems that editors don't do any work at all.

A lot of superhero comics these days seem to be constructed by social media.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Anyone notice how Fitzmartin seems to write the girls who showed a romantic interest in Tim (Steph, Cassie, Cissie) in an off way or use them badly?

[Frontier]

Well, I think she is writing for a certain audience...

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Well, I think she is writing for a certain audience...

Yep the twitter/tumblr/A03 fanfic shippers who do the thing where they hate on a female love interest/characters for getting in the way of slashpairing or use them as props to promote said slashpairing.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

The Dark Crisis Young Justice issue 5 variant REALLY is trying to push Bernard as if he is someone important to Tim on par with Bruce, Steph or Dick.......(ugh). Mayeb they should SHOW instead of pushing it. Also really don't like how he's drawn the same size as Bruce and Steph being so small, and I hope they aren't trying to he is as important to Tim as Bruce is or more than Steph which is again shilling. And is Steph being so small, and so far from Tim,and wearing her past apperance an indicating she is part of Tim's past now? I hope not..........

https://aiptcomics.com/ezoimgfmt/***...=ng:webp/ngcb1

[Timekeeper]

So why is the dream world that's supposed to keep them happy being so weird? It doesn't make sense for the premise

We know that all the wrong things happening are supposed to be perceived as the dream world getting it wrong. Bart says so, "this is not even our past".

The dream world got it wrong, but why? It shouldn't got things wrong if the goal is to trap them there.

Dark Crisis: Young Justice is not a Worlds Without a Justice League tie-in, and the solicits for DC: YJ #4 and #5 reveal that they're not in one of Pariah's 'Happiness Prisons' at all, but a different artificial world created by the son of Mr. Mxyzptlk. Still messy as hell.

[Restingvoice]

Dark Crisis: Young Justice is not a Worlds Without a Justice League tie-in, and the solicits for DC: YJ #4 and #5 reveal that they're not in one of Pariah's 'Happiness Prisons' at all, but a different artificial world created by the son of Mr. Mxyzptlk. Still messy as hell.

Oh okay. That also explains why Pariah can suddenly reach them while they're in Hall of Justice. He can't, but a 5th dimensional imp can, and while the purpose is to never grow up together, it's done by what the imp thinks the 90s was like, not what the YJ3 themselves want. That's why everything's messy. So that makes sense.

[Timekeeper]

Oh okay. That also explains why Pariah can suddenly reach them while they're in Hall of Justice. He can't, but a 5th dimensional imp can, and while the purpose is to never grow up together, it's done by what the imp thinks the 90s was like, not what the YJ3 themselves want. That's why everything's messy. So that makes sense.

It also lends credence to the theory that "our" Cassie is getting bullied by "Cissie" because they're also being manipulated by Mickey. Or at least, here's hoping...

[ducklord]

It also lends credence to the theory that "our" Cassie is getting bullied by "Cissie" because they're also being manipulated by Mickey. Or at least, here's hoping...

It *would* tie everything together neatly if all the cringey aspects of the book (the "fantasy 90s world" being verrrry unappealing, Cissie being a strident caricature of a "woke" young woman) were all the doings of "Mr. Mxyptlk's Incel Offspring." It would even be somewhat true to the spirit of the kinds of social commentary the original comic used to dabble in on occasion .

But if that's where this story is going, I'll be impressed 'cause, man, that's a helluva risk to take as a writer - intentionally making the first few issues of your mini-series intentionally OOC and anger-inducing just so's you can pull the switcheroo near the end.

[Digifiend]

I didn't think Tim had a pre-CoIE back story.

He doesn't, he debuted in 1989.

I thought it might be Mr Mxylptlk?

Close, it's his son!

Next canon question, since assuming everything post crisis happened the way it was

What would the New 52 Teen Titans look like if the team is made up of Tim's team right before reboot?
The premise is the same. Harvest is hunting young metahumans, and Tim, 17, is trying to keep one step ahead.

N.O.W.H.E.R.E. will be targeting Bart, Cassie, Miss Martian and Solstice. Where will they find them and will they succeed? They would not be targeting them at Titans Tower but will be spying and following them to strike when they're alone

Of course, Conner will be with TT from the start and has no relation to Harvest

Unless you want to follow the Rebirth story and has him removed to Gemworld, while Harvest created New 52 Kon andd so the Post Crisis Tim Titans had to fight a Superboy with no history with them, with no Superboy of their own (at this point Jon Kent would still only be 3 years old and Chris Kent died)

Why Miss Martian? She wasn't there in the New 52. Hadn't she already left the team by then? She's barely met Conner in the comics, because she debuted after his death and left just after he came back. I see no reason why the sixth member wouldn't still be Bunker. Also, I think the original plan was for Superboy to be brainwashed by NOWHERE, so that would still play out mostly the same. The main differences would be Bart not being criminal Bar-Torr, and he, Tim and Cassie already knowing each other.

Once again a real editor would stop that mess.

Because when YJ started Tim did not KNOW Bernard.

In fact YJ was DONE in 8/2003.

Bernard showed up Feb 2004.

That's relevant how? It's modern Tim who mentions Bernard, not a pre-2004 version.

[13th Superman]

He doesn't, he debuted in 1989.

Close, it's his son!

Why Miss Martian? She wasn't there in the New 52. Hadn't she already left the team by then? She's barely met Conner in the comics, because she debuted after his death and left just after he came back. I see no reason why the sixth member wouldn't still be Bunker. Also, I think the original plan was for Superboy to be brainwashed by NOWHERE, so that would still play out mostly the same. The main differences would be Bart not being criminal Bar-Torr, and he, Tim and Cassie already knowing each other.

That's relevant how? It's modern Tim who mentions Bernard, not a pre-2004 version.

Miss M made a very brief appearance in the 1st Titans issue during the new 52. One of many situations Tim was following.
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