Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[Frontier]

I mean Carrie wasn't an orphan. She had parents, went to school and had a normal teenage life. Tim not being just another orphan Robin was never a thing. We already had that 2 years before Tim Drake was ever a thing.

Yes his folks dying made him more like dick and Jason but prior to that he was just like Carrie or Babs.

I did like the idea of his folks being alive. Not every Robin or orphan needs to be adopted by Bruce Wayne. having bruce adopt Tim added nothing to Tim's character unlike with Dick and Jason. We just traded a slightly neglectful parent for one that's not a parental factor at all or uncaring at the worst.

It seems like Carrie was effectively an orphan given how little her parents seem to be involved in her life.

I think Bruce adopting him at a pivotal point in their lives was a big turning point for both characters, especially for Bruce as he tried to repair his life and his path as a mentor.

[dietrich]

It seems like Carrie was effectively an orphan given how little her parents seem to be involved in her life.

I think Bruce adopting him at a pivotal point in their lives was a big turning point for both characters, especially for Bruce as he tried to repair his life and his path as a mentor.

Just like Tim's folks.
Tim was in boarding schools and his folks constant travels meant they had little involvement in his life leaving him able to lead his double life.

Not sure how you are reading the text but after Bruce adopted Tim there wasn't much evidence of him trying to repair his life or his path as a mentor unless you are talking about Tomasi's Batman and Robin which I guess you could be looking at it that way. [Damian turned up shortly after Tim was adopted] I didn't get that reading.

Sure Carrie didn't have the luxury of a long run to explore her private life and stuff but that doesn't change that Tim wasn't the first robin who wasn't an orphan.

Coming into comics I already watched TDKR so I knew that Robin wasn't an orphan. When I started reading Tim him having parents wasn't anything that stood out to me.

[Aahz]

Just like Tim's folks.
Tim was in boarding schools and his folks constant travels meant they had little involvement in his life leaving him able to lead his double life.

That was before Tim became Robin, after that Jack was more involved in Tim's life.

Btw. Cuck Dixon said recently on his You tube channel that he was asked several times to kill Jack off, and he allways refused to do that since he got more stories out of him living.

[anakin99]

I mean Carrie wasn't an orphan. She had parents, went to school and had a normal teenage life. Tim not being just another orphan Robin was never a thing. We already had that 2 years before Tim Drake was ever a thing.

Yes his folks dying made him more like dick and Jason but prior to that he was just like Carrie or Babs.

I did like the idea of his folks being alive. Not every Robin or orphan needs to be adopted by Bruce Wayne. having bruce adopt Tim added nothing to Tim's character unlike with Dick and Jason. We just traded a slightly neglectful parent for one that's not a parental factor at all or uncaring at the worst.

Maybe you do but I don't count non main continuity Robins and Babs is not a Robin

[dietrich]

That was before Tim became Robin, after that Jack was more involved in Tim's life.

Btw. Cuck Dixon said recently on his You tube channel that he was asked several times to kill Jack off, and he allways refused to do that since he got more stories out of him living.

I remember when Jack got more involved and I remember when Tim had to write his folks because they were always away.

However that is all pointless. Are you saying that Tim was the first Robin not to be an Orphan?

[dietrich]

Maybe you do but I don't count non main continuity Robins and Babs is not a Robin

My bad. maybe you should have put an Asterix in your comment.

Carrie might not be main continuity but as my earlier comment shows to some readers she still has an impact on how we view characters.

Casual experiences with out media does impact expectations and interpretations coming in.

I already knew a Robin with parents before tim
I already knew a female Robin before Steph and that is just how it is. To the majority of DC fans there is a female Robin who lived with her parents and was such a Batman fangirl she snuck out to seek him out

[phonogram12]

The thing is given how intense their relationship was and Tim even telling her she was everything he ever wanted and more, just using the excuse of he's "bi" doesn't seem satisfactory as just because you are bi doesn't mean you instantly fall out of love with the person you were with and move on so quickly to a new thing, which is exactly what happened here. We never see how this realization impacts their relationship and again given how deeply in love they were it seems like handwaving and inauthentic especially with how Tim ghosted her and acted like a tool.

I read the special and it really doesn't seem as if Tim said anything even close to having fallen out of love with her instantly. Like many who come out as bi, they simply want to explore this new found part of their life they didn't even know existed before. Sometimes couples decide to go the polyamorous route. Sometimes they don't. Steph doesn't seem like the polyamorous type.

IDK, like I said, it seems like not a lot of people here know too many bi people.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I read the special and it really doesn't seem as if Tim said anything even close to having fallen out of love with her instantly. Like many who come out as bi, they simply want to explore this new found part of their life they didn't even know existed before. Sometimes couples decide to go the polyamorous route. Sometimes they don't. Steph doesn't seem like the polyamorous type.

IDK, like I said, it seems like not a lot of people here know too many bi people.

It still doesn't explain why he would fall out of love with her so quickly, and avoid her for so long and be so into Bernard who he has been with for barely a month. If he wants to explore himself fine, but the way he went about and how quickly he jumped on to Bernard seems more for the sake of doing something new again especially in light how intense his relationship with Steph has, not helping that we never see how his issues affected his relationship with Steph exactly. If you want to explore yourself does that mean you give up on a long term and intense relationship that was life changing for something new so fast and ghost your ex after dumping them without a reason? Given how little we've seen Bernard I can't buy Tim being so into him so quickly. We don't even know why they like each other and what he has over Steph. Like I can't buy him falling out of in love with her at all and moving on so fast or both of them not being more hurt over the breakup.

I know plenty of bi people who say the way Tim acted is not cool and kind of bizarre. Almost falls into the promiscious stereotype of bi people.

[Aahz]

I remember when Jack got more involved and I remember when Tim had to write his folks because they were always away.

That was when Tim was still in training, in the Story arc where his mother died and his father ended up in coma.

[Frontier]

My bad. maybe you should have put an Asterix in your comment.

Carrie might not be main continuity but as my earlier comment shows to some readers she still has an impact on how we view characters.

Casual experiences with out media does impact expectations and interpretations coming in.

I already knew a Robin with parents before tim
I already knew a female Robin before Steph and that is just how it is. To the majority of DC fans there is a female Robin who lived with her parents and was such a Batman fangirl she snuck out to seek him out

Would you say Steph and Carrie are that similar characterization-wise? Like Cluemaster sets them up a lot and I'd say even their relationship with Batman was very different.

And Carrie never had a Tim (that I'm aware of).

[paulojrmam]

It still doesn't explain why he would fall out of love with her so quickly, and avoid her for so long and be so into Bernard who he has been with for barely a month.

Isn't Bernard an old acquaintance of his? I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation that maybe Tim always had a crush on Bernard but mistook it for friendship, but after coming to know that he would meet Bernard he started thinking about him after a long time and this more mature Tim recognized that what he feels for him is more than just friendship. As for him not being with Steph and being with Bernard, can't it be simply that he likes him more than her? As for him breaking up with Steph, I don't know, I'm not updated on the whole story and where they were beforehand.

[Frontier]

Isn't Bernard an old acquaintance of his? I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation that maybe Tim always had a crush on Bernard but mistook it for friendship, but after coming to know that he would meet Bernard he started thinking about him after a long time and this more mature Tim recognized that what he feels for him is more than just friendship. As for him not being with Steph and being with Bernard, can't it be simply that he likes him more than her? As for him breaking up with Steph, I don't know, I'm not updated on the whole story and where they were beforehand.

I think the problem was it just wasn't set up or executed well to where the audience could believe in any of that, since Bernard's re-appearance is so sudden, barely has anything to do with his past appearance, and hasn't really offered anything to match the level of what Tim and Steph have gone through together (but that was always an uphill battle).

[phonogram12]

Isn't Bernard an old acquaintance of his? I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation that maybe Tim always had a crush on Bernard but mistook it for friendship, but after coming to know that he would meet Bernard he started thinking about him after a long time and this more mature Tim recognized that what he feels for him is more than just friendship. As for him not being with Steph and being with Bernard, can't it be simply that he likes him more than her? As for him breaking up with Steph, I don't know, I'm not updated on the whole story and where they were beforehand.

Exactly this.

I know plenty of bi people who say the way Tim acted is not cool and kind of bizarre. Almost falls into the promiscious stereotype of bi people.

Yeah, I wouldn't say this is any sort of accurate read of that special at all.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Isn't Bernard an old acquaintance of his? I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation that maybe Tim always had a crush on Bernard but mistook it for friendship, but after coming to know that he would meet Bernard he started thinking about him after a long time and this more mature Tim recognized that what he feels for him is more than just friendship. As for him not being with Steph and being with Bernard, can't it be simply that he likes him more than her? As for him breaking up with Steph, I don't know, I'm not updated on the whole story and where they were beforehand.

Bernard was barely a friend. He was just a casual friend who appeared for SIX issues, thirsted over Tim's mom and his last appearance had him telling a supervillain where Tim lives. He and Tim were never really close. Tim seemed pretty annoyed with him a lot.

I can't believe he would like Bernard more than her and so quickly as we never see or are shown why he likes Bernard so much or what their dynamic is or what Tim even finds appealing about him at all. Especially since this was the status of Tim and Steph's relationship for the last 5 years:

This recent breakup came after the past few years was spent on strengthening their relationship and showing how much they mean to each other and leaving them in a good place. For example in Bendis YJ, he said he was in a very intense relatonship with her that was life changing, and it all he could think about when stranded in an alternate universe and she was his main motivation to get home. He also treated an alternate Stephanie with the same love and tenderness he would his Steph and leaving that alternate Stephanie was not easy even if she was not the one he knew based on the longing look they shared at the end. Both Tim and Stephanie after realizing that they were in each other's repressed memories declared they loved each other and madly so. Even after having the timeline changed, they still found each other again which is why they had love at first sight in Batman Eternal. Hell in DC Rebirth Tim and Stephanie's love for each other was a reason Mr. Oz saw him as a threat to the changes he and Dr.Manhattan made and why he kidnapped him. Their love for each other transcends dimensions and timelines.

This is why breaking them up of so panel and Tim jumping on to Bernard so quickly feels rushed and hard to buy.

[dietrich]

Would you say Steph and Carrie are that similar characterization-wise? Like Cluemaster sets them up a lot and I'd say even their relationship with Batman was very different.

And Carrie never had a Tim (that I'm aware of).

No I don't think Steph and Carrie are similar character wise.

Steph Their personalities are up beat doers and both are girls who wore the Robin mantle but that's about it.

With Steph I never got that 'this reminds me of something' vibe that I experienced with Tim.

Their origins, Journey, motivations and core ideologies are very different.
Even the functions/roles the characters have in the bat narrative are very different.