Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[CPSparkles]

That growth was ultimately the biggest asset his time as Red Robin pre-New 52 had going for it… and let’s face it, that book under Fabian Niceiza and Chris Yost *was* Tim using his networking skills to investigate things alongside other heroes, and while having a civilian life that was different from Dick’s and from his own past one.

I get the annoyance, frustration, and disgust a lot of people have for the series of traumas and deprivations Tim suffered thanks to collateral damage form Didio’s personal grievances with legacy characters, unexpected and unwanted successes, and a desire to make tIm more conventional among writers. I also get people who looked at the Red Robin book, and thought it just made Tim Bruce-Lite.

…But to be honest, it was a consistently readable, fun, and addicting throwback to the Denny O’Neill Batman mixed with Tim’s generation of heroes and a neat “how chess-mastery should a hero be before he’s going too far?” kind of theme.

Could we stop using Didio as a scape goat.
Yes the guy had a thing against the titans because he felt they aged the main headliners but that didn't extend to ALL legacy characters and especially not to Tim.

Under Didio Tim was protected and given chance after chance. Didio wanted to keep Tim. To get rid of Dick's generation and start with them. He put a lot of resources and effort into making sure Tim always had a home and a title.

Once Didio left that's the 1st time Tim suddenly didn't have a regular title.

Red robin spilt Tim's base and turned him into some genius who was borderline a sociopath with some parts of bruce [the negatives for some reason] a dash of Damian. That's not the Tim Drake. There's already a Bruce Wayne There's already a Damian Wayne and the batfamily already has plenty of individuals who are genius level. we didn't need another.

Writers have to take a look at the recently revealed Denny O'neil Batman bible and remember who Tim Drake is and what he isn't.

[Aahz]

Writers have to take a look at the recently revealed Denny O'neil Batman bible and remember who Tim Drake is and what he isn't.

Where can I find that?

[CPSparkles]

Where can I find that?

http://theotherscottpeterson.blogspo...bible.html?m=1

Hear is an additional excerpt I saved re his thoughts on 2015 after jason and Damian.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/61/b8...6af0c23744.jpg

[godisawesome]

Could we stop using Didio as a scape goat.
Yes the guy had a thing against the titans because he felt they aged the main headliners but that didn't extend to ALL legacy characters and especially not to Tim.

Under Didio Tim was protected and given chance after chance. Didio wanted to keep Tim. To get rid of Dick's generation and start with them. He put a lot of resources and effort into making sure Tim always had a home and a title.

Once Didio left that's the 1st time Tim suddenly didn't have a regular title.

Red robin spilt Tim's base and turned him into some genius who was borderline a sociopath with some parts of bruce [the negatives for some reason] a dash of Damian. That's not the Tim Drake. There's already a Bruce Wayne There's already a Damian Wayne and the batfamily already has plenty of individuals who are genius level. we didn't need another.

Writers have to take a look at the recently revealed Denny O'neil Batman bible and remember who Tim Drake is and what he isn't.

I’d still disagree, though I should clarify my opinion a bit:

Didio’s support for Tim was in a “shape” and style that was still harmful to him even as an asset Didio wanted to use, while Tim’s story kept getting caught in the “splashback” of Didio’s other mistakes and general failures.

Didio was the guy behind Steph getting killed once and then exiled, Cass’s freak out, and who okayed/decided Superboy’s death and Bart’s death as well as part of his general struggles with legacy characters and understanding what makes characters work, or how successful characters aren’t threats to other ones he wanted to push, and he gave the okay for Jack Drake’s death as well if he didn’t push for it. That’s a lot the stuff that the writers had to deal with that led to the Red Robin’s characterization for him…

…and the Nicieza and Yost years of dealing with those issues was the best of the miasma that hit the character after Didio destroyed his generation. I’m not denying the character’s fanbase was a bit divided after Didio’s work indirectly impacted him, but they got a little bit more united and his book recovered when Nicieza and Yost handled him.

And yes, Didio clearly wanted Tim to be the asset used in Teen Titans… but he gave him to Scott freakin’ Lobdell, one of his yes-men, who then proceeded to screw Tim up far more than anything that came before him.

[Aahz]

http://theotherscottpeterson.blogspo...bible.html?m=1

Hear is an additional excerpt I saved re his thoughts on 2015 after jason and Damian.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/61/b8...6af0c23744.jpg

Thanks for the link.

[CPSparkles]

I’d still disagree, though I should clarify my opinion a bit:

Didio’s support for Tim was in a “shape” and style that was still harmful to him even as an asset Didio wanted to use, while Tim’s story kept getting caught in the “splashback” of Didio’s other mistakes and general failures.

Didio was the guy behind Steph getting killed once and then exiled, Cass’s freak out, and who okayed/decided Superboy’s death and Bart’s death as well as part of his general struggles with legacy characters and understanding what makes characters work, or how successful characters aren’t threats to other ones he wanted to push, and he gave the okay for Jack Drake’s death as well if he didn’t push for it. That’s a lot the stuff that the writers had to deal with that led to the Red Robin’s characterization for him…

…and the Nicieza and Yost years of dealing with those issues was the best of the miasma that hit the character after Didio destroyed his generation. I’m not denying the character’s fanbase was a bit divided after Didio’s work indirectly impacted him, but they got a little bit more united and his book recovered when Nicieza and Yost handled him.

And yes, Didio clearly wanted Tim to be the asset used in Teen Titans… but he gave him to Scott freakin’ Lobdell, one of his yes-men, who then proceeded to screw Tim up far more than anything that came before him.

ALL the DCU characters and assets were affected by Didio. Everyone had a tough deal aside from Dick's generation who had it really bad because unlike Tim they were assets that Didio wanted gone and buried.

Didio also gave superman, Nightwing, red hood and many many more to Lobdell. creative decision's are hit and miss, my point is that Didio never had it in for Tim like you suggested.

[godisawesome]

ALL the DCU characters and assets were affected by Didio. Everyone had a tough deal aside from Dick's generation who had it really bad because unlike Tim they were assets that Didio wanted gone and buried.

Didio also gave superman, Nightwing, red hood and many many more to Lobdell. creative decision's are hit and miss, my point is that Didio never had it in for Tim like you suggested.

Okay, now, that I would agree with.

It’s arguably that Tim should be linked with Barry in terms of showing how little actual helpfulness/very real harm could be done to a character Didio even liked or saw value in - that even if he felt there was a place for a character over another, it was just as likely to be a “square peg, round hole” situation as an actual push.

And I think that Bart, Kon, Cass, and Steph all being so important to Tim and all eventually being characters Didio had issues with at one point or another does show that some of the defining aspects of Tim’s initial “Golden Age” was a target of Didio’s ire…

…And I still hold that the Red Robin book was ultimately excellent, even when accommodating the issues of previous stories and editorial decisions.

[DisneyBoy]

I'm really surprised they didn't show Tim having his first guy/guy date in the follow-up story. Weird choice. He starts dating someone in what is a huge shift, but the writing completely keeps it off-panel.

Huh?

[godisawesome]

I'm really surprised they didn't show Tim having his first guy/guy date in the follow-up story. Weird choice. He starts dating someone in what is a huge shift, but the writing completely keeps it off-panel.

Huh?

Writers keep on seeming to miss how much Tim’s general formula for a successful book depended on some civilian scenes, or how much same sex romantic interests don’t really change a character if there all “off screen.”

Nicieza mimicked Dixon in keeping the civil story for Tim in Red Robin, even if the character had changed by then; meanwhile, Tynion, a genuine Tim fan, seems to struggle to do stuff like that, possibly because he’s as influenced by Geoff Johns as anything else.

Meanwhile, remember how Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual a few years ago? And how little that has ultimately meant since the female character she was interested in disappeared and Bruce again resumed his spot as her predominant love interest? I suspect that’s a risk with Tim here; that the change in his sexuality means nothing if it’s just a nominal thing off screen that could quickly be forgotten about the next time someone wants to reunite him and Steph.

[Aahz]

Meanwhile, remember how Catwoman was revealed to be bisexual a few years ago? And how little that has ultimately meant since the female character she was interested in disappeared and Bruce again resumed his spot as her predominant love interest? I suspect that’s a risk with Tim here; that the change in his sexuality means nothing if it’s just a nominal thing off screen that could quickly be forgotten about the next time someone wants to reunite him and Steph.

That's why I still think changing the sexuality of characters with established, long lasting and popular relationship is pointless.

Catwoman will probably never have any loveinterest (of any gender) that is going be even remotely as relevant in pop culture as Batman, and I think with Tim and Steph it is similar.

[Lal]

That's why I still think changing the sexuality of characters with established, long lasting and popular relationship is pointless.

Catwoman will probably never have any loveinterest (of any gender) that is going be even remotely as relevant in pop culture as Batman, and I think with Tim and Steph it is similar.

I don't think that the general audience outside of comics knows about Tim and Steph as a couple. The Robin-Batgirl couple people know are probobly Dick and Babs, and I think DC are interested in pushing Tim a as a diversity character amongst the other Robins.
Catwoman doesn't need a focus on her bisexuality because she isn't competing with 3 other catwomen. Actually, of the 3 Gotham city sirens, being in a relationship with a men is a distinguishing factor.

Anyway, I get why last UL issue was more about Tim as a character than about Tim dating. It's DC signaling that Tim will be more than just the queer character, and remain mostly the same with this new angle added to his life.

The problem is that after 4 months of nothing, this one story was just too weak and didn't generate enough interest and enthusiasm.

[Aahz]

I don't think that the general audience outside of comics knows about Tim and Steph as a couple.

The "general audience outside of comics" doesn't read comics, and will not suddenly start reading comics because Tim is dating a guy.
So what they know or don't know should not really matter for what happens in comics.

[Lal]

The "general audience outside of comics" doesn't read comics, and will not suddenly start reading comics because Tim is dating a guy.
So what they know or don't know should not really matter for what happens in comics.

We already know that's not true. There was a ton of public buzz about Robin revelation as bi. DC understood that this declaration generates headlines and used it spectecularily to lift Jon from deteriorating sales to one of the best sellers of the month. Shop owners described how new readers who never picked up comics asked for the superman book because he's bi.
DC wasn't prepared for the buzz with Tim, his coming out issue sold out, but that was it for 4 months. People already moved on and UL 10 wasn't a best seller.

But I doubt DC will turn from their queer Robin and not explore his sexuality after all the media buzz.

[Aahz]

The question is how much of the the sales increase came actually from new readers, and how much came from speculators or comic book fans that where just getting the coming out issue(s) to see what is going on.

And the other big question is if enough of the new readers will actually stick around.

[Lal]

The question is how much of the the sales increase came actually from new readers, and how much came from speculators or comic book fans that where just getting the coming out issue(s) to see what is going on.

And the other big question is if enough of the new readers will actually stick around.

Well, we do know the book was also a best seller on all digital platforms, hinting it wasn't just speculators buying it.
We don't know yet if it would have a long or short term effect on sales, but the exposure and marketing definitely helped Jon character.

Tim needs those new readers. Even if it's people who will just pick up his issue to see what the buzz, some will stay because he's interesting. Tim still has his fan base, but he didn't have an ongoing for years, and it didn't help his popularity with newer readers.

I just wonder why DC aren't announcing at least a mini or a team book with Tim. But maybe he'll get something following the shadow of the bat event.