Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[Aahz]

And Damian being a very profitable and popular Robin despite being a POC and the overcoming the anti middle eastern sentiment that was at it's peak then.

Even without the diversity part new characters that become actually popular are extermely rare (I mean even old characters that are actually popular enough to sell books are rare).
DC can not really afford to kill one off permanently.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

He said to DC he has three roles he needed to fill. Two suspects and one's the real killer. DC came back with Harley, Booster and Wally. King then choose Wally as the killer, Booster and Harley as the suspects



Jay is not embraced as much, because just like with Tim Bern vs Tim Kon, there's a lot more who prefer Jon with Damian, plus people already hate Jon's age up before you get into the shipping part.

Although I have to say I've seen more people embracing Tim Bern who are also Tim Kon fans. The difference maybe in maturity, from what I've seen the Dami-Jon fans seem to be on the younger side, teenagers, while Tim Kon fans can be up to 30+ years old now.



I don't read Young Avengers but I've seen some panels. Is Eli the black guy with glasses?

I believe if Jay was white and blonde he would be more recieved for sure. It can't just be due to shipping wars.

As opposed to the 1st middle eastern Robin?

And this all happening around 9-11?

And Damian being a very profitable and popular Robin despite being a POC and the overcoming the anti middle eastern sentiment that was at it's peak then.

Would you have let DC mess with such a great thing if you were WB?

WB made the right call. Damian's break out success is 2nd only to Harley Quinn's.

Oh come on. Damian was marketed as the Son of Batman and was made so he looked white. The fact he was Middle Eastern was barely advertised or even touched upon.The Al Ghuls for YEARS have been portrayed as vaguely foreign but white enough. There is a reason why white actors played them in cartoons/tv shows. WB didn't care about Damian/Robin being a POC or fighting anti-Middle Eastern sentiment. Most people don't even know he isn't white and many adaptions whitewash him. A Middle Eastern Robin would have gotten as much attention as Kamala Khan did if DC advertised it but they didn't.

[dietrich]

I believe if Jay was white and blonde he would be more recieved for sure. It can't just be due to shipping wars.




Oh come on. Damian was marketed as the Son of Batman and was made so he looked white. The fact he was Middle Eastern was barely advertised or even touched upon.The Al Ghuls for YEARS have been portrayed as vaguely foreign but white enough. There is a reason why white actors played them in cartoons/tv shows. WB didn't care about Damian/Robin being a POC or fighting anti-Middle Eastern sentiment. Most people don't even know he isn't white and many adaptions whitewash him. A Middle Eastern Robin would have gotten as much attention as Kamala Khan did if DC advertised it but they didn't.

Most Middle Eastern like Damian are white passing.

Damian was marketed as much as an Al Ghul as a Wayne. Al ghul clearly isn't a European name or of European heritage.

You are right DC didn't care about fight anti-middle eastern sentiment and WB didn't care about Damian being a person of colour. Unlike with Duke his writer didn't talk about him being the 1st Middle Eastern Robin and no one tried to use his diversity status to push him.

He was a successful new character who happened to be Middle Eastern, Asian with a jewish Grandmother.

He was a member of an under represented group that managed to do what so many are still struggling to do.

Damian wasn't pushed as representation/diversity but he is and he is successful so I ask again are you saying that WB should have replaced a successful minority character with Duke?

It wasn't sus that WB stepped in to stop DC making a stupid decision.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Most Middle Eastern like Damian are white passing.

Damian was marketed as much as an Al Ghul as a Wayne. Al ghul clearly isn't a European name or of European heritage.

You are right DC didn't care about fight anti-middle eastern sentiment and WB didn't care about Damian being a person of colour. Unlike with Duke his writer didn't talk about him being the 1st Middle Eastern Robin and no one tried to use his diversity status to push him.

He was a successful new character who happened to be Middle Eastern, Asian with a jewish Grandmother.

He was a member of an under represented group that managed to do what so many are still struggling to do.

Damian wasn't pushed as representation/diversity but he is and he is successful so I ask again are you saying that WB should have replaced a successful minority character with Duke?

It wasn't sus that WB stepped in to stop DC making a stupid decision.

Damian is white passing but for all intents and purposes for a lot of the time he was basically treated as white which goes beyond just passiong.

The way Al Ghul isn't even the correct Arabic way to pronounce it and it is pronounced how people who speak English would. It isn't clearly European but it was set up as vaguely foreign that a white person could play them.

Damian is rarely used or highlighted even now as an example of Middle Eastern Representation by DC. Again most people probably don't even know Damian or Robin is middle eastern still.

The thing is Damian is still succesful yet they are now pushing Tim to replace him as Robin because of the recent bisexual attention and marketing. So it's okay to replace Damian in this case but not for the other one with Duke?

Also given WB's treatment of Ray Fisher and other things, I'm calling it sus.

[Konja7]

Most Middle Eastern like Damian are white passing.

Damian was marketed as much as an Al Ghul as a Wayne. Al ghul clearly isn't a European name or of European heritage.

You are right DC didn't care about fight anti-middle eastern sentiment and WB didn't care about Damian being a person of colour. Unlike with Duke his writer didn't talk about him being the 1st Middle Eastern Robin and no one tried to use his diversity status to push him.

He was a successful new character who happened to be Middle Eastern, Asian with a jewish Grandmother.

He was a member of an under represented group that managed to do what so many are still struggling to do.

Damian wasn't pushed as representation/diversity but he is and he is successful so I ask again are you saying that WB should have replaced a successful minority character with Duke?

It wasn't sus that WB stepped in to stop DC making a stupid decision.

The point is that most people don't identify Damian as a minority when he appeared. So, he wasn't considered a succesful minority.

It's true that the Al Ghul name isn't European, but the lineage has been pretty ambiguous. Not to mention that they really focus on Damian being identical to Bruce in his early appearances (this was the focus for WB too).

So, WB likely see Damian mainly as a white boy (even if they were wrong) when they stop DC to use Duke as a new Robin.

[Restingvoice]

What WB did was basically say hey, Batman has a son and he's Robin, let's use it, because we never market Robin as Batman's son before and most people don't know he has a biological son

I would say that they conveniently leave off that he and his mother is not white, except that Ra's is very clearly eastern, and they didn't leave off their connection in the trailer, so they don't keep it secret either.

How WB handles Damian or the Al Ghul in general when it comes to ethnicity is debatable, though I'm leaning towards that they don't care, since they let Nolan casts white people but also let Arrow casts Arab and also let the white passing Tunisian-Jewish-European Mazouz to play Bruce. So I think they just let the creative team do whatever they find acceptable.

I believe if Jay was white and blonde he would be more recieved for sure. It can't just be due to shipping wars.

Dude, Damian in any pairing is way more popular than Bernard or Jay in any pairing. DamiJon from Super Sons and DamiRae (Raven) from DCAU are big. There's even Daminette (Marinette from Miraculous Ladybug). Damian is the biggest Gen-Z Batfam character. They grew up with him. It won't be just because of any blond.

These are shippers but they are also comic fans, and like all comic fans, people get attached and resistant to change. (no of course it's not just the pairing, but that's one reason that I know, beside the age up)

[ayanestar]

The thing is Damian is still succesful yet they are now pushing Tim to replace him as Robin because of the recent bisexual attention and marketing. So it's okay to replace Damian in this case but not for the other one with Duke?

You say this as if making him Robin again is doing his character any favors. DC has no idea what to do with Tim. They don't even know if the media attention will help his comic sales because people freaking out on Twitter means absolutely nothing in the long term, most of them don't even know anything about Tim and as someone else has pointed out already, the current generation has grown up with Damian, the older generation remembers Dick as Robin and others are fans of Red Hood because he is a "bad" guy, but the majority of them don't know he used to be Robin. DC making Tim, one of the less relevant Robins, come out as bisexual doesn't give me the feeling they actually care about LGBT representation, so I don't even know why anyone should celebrate this.

[Aahz]

The thing is Damian is still succesful yet they are now pushing Tim to replace him as Robin because of the recent bisexual attention and marketing. So it's okay to replace Damian in this case but not for the other one with Duke?

In case of Tim it looks to me more like desperate attempt to make him relevant again.
I'm don't think that will really take much a way from Damian. Damian seems still to be the main Robin, who appears in more books, and since Tim got just shot in Batman #125 I also don't think that we will see that much of him in Zdarsky's as some people seem to expect.

[dietrich]

The point is that most people don't identify Damian as a minority when he appeared. So, he wasn't considered a succesful minority.

It's true that the Al Ghul name isn't European, but the lineage has been pretty ambiguous. Not to mention that they really focus on Damian being identical to Bruce in his early appearances (this was the focus for WB too).

So, WB likely see Damian mainly as a white boy (even if they were wrong) when they stop DC to use Duke as a new Robin.

How do you know what most people thought about Damian?

The Sheer number of fans who advocate for him to be more shown darker disproves the whole most people don't identify Damian as a POC.

[dietrich]

Damian is white passing but for all intents and purposes for a lot of the time he was basically treated as white which goes beyond just passiong.

The way Al Ghul isn't even the correct Arabic way to pronounce it and it is pronounced how people who speak English would. It isn't clearly European but it was set up as vaguely foreign that a white person could play them.

Damian is rarely used or highlighted even now as an example of Middle Eastern Representation by DC. Again most people probably don't even know Damian or Robin is middle eastern still.

The thing is Damian is still succesful yet they are now pushing Tim to replace him as Robin because of the recent bisexual attention and marketing. So it's okay to replace Damian in this case but not for the other one with Duke?

Also given WB's treatment of Ray Fisher and other things, I'm calling it sus.

Back when Batman and son came out, Morrison admitted that Damian was a temp character.
This was on 2006. Damian had been killed at the end of this arc.

In 2009 they talked about how interest in the character had led to DC asking him to bring back the character.

These were all before Duke was ever a thing and even before Snyder. This does collaborate Morrisons words that Damian was always to die.

You might believe that it was all a ploy to not have a POC ROBIN but have you read RSOB? Damian's solo that came out after he was brought back [the time when Duke would have taken over]

That series has a POC Robin. Damian in that series is brown not white passing.

You are trying to see ulterior motives where there aren't any. DC is plenty racist and plenty of other isms but Duke not taking over from Damian isn't one of those.

You also didn't answer my question. If you were WB would you have replaced Damian with Duke?

[dietrich]

In case of Tim it looks to me more like desperate attempt to make him relevant again.
I'm don't think that will really take much a way from Damian. Damian seems still to be the main Robin, who appears in more books, and since Tim got just shot in Batman #125 I also don't think that we will see that much of him in Zdarsky's as some people seem to expect.

Agreed. Plus Damian and Tim have been sharing the role for sometime.

[dietrich]

There's far too much talk about Duke and Damian in this Tim Drake Thread.

Has anyone been following Batman and the Faze clan? That's got Tim in it as Robin. I've not seen it discussed yet.

[Aahz]

Agreed. Plus Damian and Tim have been sharing the role for sometime.

True Tim changed from Red Robin back to Robin more than 3 yeas ago, and from Drake back to Robin about one and half years ago (after being Drake for 10 month). And honestly he had likely a bigger role in the Batman franchise during Tynions run on TEC and in B&RE when he was still Red Robin.

[Konja7]

How do you know what most people thought about Damian?

The Sheer number of fans who advocate for him to be more shown darker disproves the whole most people don't identify Damian as a POC.

The fact that they need darker skin Damian to prove his identity cultural shows that white passsing Damian wasn't foreign enough to be considered a POC by them.

Still, Damian used to always be drawn as white kid (especially in his first years). It's pretty difficult this wouldn't affect the preception of many people, since people tend to identify race with physical appearance.

That's one of the reasons why artists give Damian a darker skin tone when they want to represent his status as POC.

[Konja7]

True Tim changed from Red Robin back to Robin more than 3 yeas ago, and from Drake back to Robin about one and half years ago (after being Drake for 10 month). And honestly he had likely a bigger role in the Batman franchise during Tynions run on TEC and in B&RE when he was still Red Robin.

Curiously, Tim doesn't stop to be Red Robin in Young Justice even if he used a Robin suit and they market him as Robin.

In Young Justice #8, he said his identity was still Red Robin. This was just before the change to Drake.

That was the start of his unclear identity issue as Robin or Red Robin.