Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[dietrich]

The fact that they need darker skin Damian to prove his identity cultural shows that white passsing Damian wasn't foreign enough to be considered a POC by them.

Still, Damian used to always be drawn as white kid (especially in his first years). It's pretty difficult this wouldn't affect the preception of many people, since people tend to identify race with physical appearance.

That's one of the reasons why artists give Damian a darker skin tone when they want to represent his status as POC.

Thank you.

Not foreign enough? so just a little bit foreign? But still foreign
You are saying that fans did recognise that he was foreign and needed it to be made more blatant.

Yes I believe so. That was the case with me. i understood that he was a pOC who was lighter and wished he was darker.

Fans don't ask for white people to be drawn darker don't you see?

[Konja7]

Yes I believe so. That was the case with me. i understood that he was a pOC who was lighter and wished he was darker.

Honestly, I didn't identify Damian as a POC until fans told me he should be. It's true that Al Ghul is a foreign last name, but Ra's and Talia wasn't drawn especially foreign at that time either.

I shouldn't have say "most people" since I don't have exact number, but I suspect a good amount of people have a similar situation regarding Damian's race.


PS: That said, this is Tim Drake thread, so I would stop here.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Back when Batman and son came out, Morrison admitted that Damian was a temp character.
This was on 2006. Damian had been killed at the end of this arc.

In 2009 they talked about how interest in the character had led to DC asking him to bring back the character.

These were all before Duke was ever a thing and even before Snyder. This does collaborate Morrisons words that Damian was always to die.

You might believe that it was all a ploy to not have a POC ROBIN but have you read RSOB? Damian's solo that came out after he was brought back [the time when Duke would have taken over]

That series has a POC Robin. Damian in that series is brown not white passing.

You are trying to see ulterior motives where there aren't any. DC is plenty racist and plenty of other isms but Duke not taking over from Damian isn't one of those.

You also didn't answer my question. If you were WB would you have replaced Damian with Duke?

The interest in Damian came from when he was the Son of Batman and in his early introductions he was white passing.

You sure about RBSOB making him brown? This was Damian in issue 12 of Robin Son of Batman:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uBZJI75MH...600/Robin3.jpg

He looks pretty white to me in this and in other panels/covers:

https://***********/batman-news.com/...rip=info&ssl=1

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/upl...5279557-13.jpg

If I were WB, I would have done what they are doing currently with Duke and Tim.

[Lal]

Damian may be white-passing and not visibly POC, but he's clearly half Arab-Asian, and being Al-Gaul is a huge part of his story.

Anyway, I do wonder about Tim's new book promotion - the first issue is actually stating on the cover that Tim is the best Robin.
I get that DC are trying to push Tim, but that's just hurting the book. I was contemplating on whether to get the first issue or not (I like Tim, not a fan of the creative team), but there's no way I'm picking it up after the cover states that Tim is better than the other Robins.
I can't think of a single reason to alienate the fanbases of other Robins. Do the people at DC really believe that Tim's fanbase is bigger than Dick's, Jason's, and Damian's combined? Don't they think some of Dick's fans may consider getting the book?

[Badou]

I feel like people forget that when Damian was created the intent was that he was supposed to look like a mini clone of Bruce. That is what Morrison was going for. People retroactively applied him to be this PoC but the idea for the character was that he was supposed to be this uncomfortable mini Bruce that was created to be just as smart and capable as him but in this 10 year old body.

[skyvolt2000]

Damian may be white-passing and not visibly POC, but he's clearly half Arab-Asian, and being Al-Gaul is a huge part of his story.

Anyway, I do wonder about Tim's new book promotion - the first issue is actually stating on the cover that Tim is the best Robin.
I get that DC are trying to push Tim, but that's just hurting the book. I was contemplating on whether to get the first issue or not (I like Tim, not a fan of the creative team), but there's no way I'm picking it up after the cover states that Tim is better than the other Robins.
I can't think of a single reason to alienate the fanbases of other Robins. Do the people at DC really believe that Tim's fanbase is bigger than Dick's, Jason's, and Damian's combined? Don't they think some of Dick's fans may consider getting the book?

Duke Thomas had to endure pushback based on ONE comment by Batman about being better than Robin.

So what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

We got too many thin skinned fanbases that go off on the littlest of things.


Why would the others even CARE when Dick and Jason have done more under different names?

Tim Drake is the one that took this title and made it it own with over 200 solo issues to prove it. So in that case he is better than the others. That saying is NOT going to erase everything the others have done.

If that is enough to put folks off-they haven't been reading comics books that long because we have seen bylines like that on other books like Fantastic Four. World's Greatest Comic anyone?

[dietrich]

Damian may be white-passing and not visibly POC, but he's clearly half Arab-Asian, and being Al-Gaul is a huge part of his story.

Anyway, I do wonder about Tim's new book promotion - the first issue is actually stating on the cover that Tim is the best Robin.
I get that DC are trying to push Tim, but that's just hurting the book. I was contemplating on whether to get the first issue or not (I like Tim, not a fan of the creative team), but there's no way I'm picking it up after the cover states that Tim is better than the other Robins.
I can't think of a single reason to alienate the fanbases of other Robins. Do the people at DC really believe that Tim's fanbase is bigger than Dick's, Jason's, and Damian's combined? Don't they think some of Dick's fans may consider getting the book?

All the above.

That best robin thing is really off putting. Why put other Robins down to promote one? Especially when the Robin been promoted isn't the one who originated the mantle, defined it and made it a mantle worth inheriting.

The move over Damian line in the solicits was also off putting.

[dietrich]

Duke Thomas had to endure pushback based on ONE comment by Batman about being better than Robin.

So what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

We got too many thin skinned fanbases that go off on the littlest of things.


Why would the others even CARE when Dick and Jason have done more under different names?

Tim Drake is the one that took this title and made it it own with over 200 solo issues to prove it. So in that case he is better than the others. That saying is NOT going to erase everything the others have done.

If that is enough to put folks off-they haven't been reading comics books that long because we have seen bylines like that on other books like Fantastic Four. World's Greatest Comic anyone?

That Batman doesn't need Robin really ticked off Tim fans.

Before Tim, Dick Grayson had nearly 200 solo adventures. He is also the only Robin to significantly increase sales of the Batman Title.

Everything that defines Robin originated and was defined by Dick Grayson.

@NOCTPHONIX

Those example of issues 12 and 13 that you supplied were by a fill in artist [Fawkes] not the series main writer and artist. Pat Gleason. Below is what Damian looks like in RSOB



This Damian from issue 11

[Frontier]

That Batman doesn't need Robin really ticked off Tim fans.

Before Tim, Dick Grayson had nearly 200 solo adventures. He is also the only Robin to significantly increase sales of the Batman Title.

Everything that defines Robin originated and was defined by Dick Grayson.

@NOCTPHONIX

Those example of issues 12 and 13 that you supplied were by a fill in artist [Fawkes] not the series main writer and artist. Pat Gleason. Below is what Damian looks like in RSOB



This Damian from issue 11

I just don't understand this need to diminish Tims' accomplishment or how successful his Robin solo is...or the concept of Robin, really.

Because, yeah, people say Batman doesn't need a Robin but Robins' character function is important and always comes back in some form or another.

And Dick has had plenty of solo adventures but never a solo Robin series.

[Jv565]

I just don't understand this need to diminish Tims' accomplishment or how successful his Robin solo is...or the concept of Robin, really.

Because, yeah, people say Batman doesn't need a Robin but Robins' character function is important and always comes back in some form or another.

And Dick has had plenty of solo adventures but never a solo Robin series.

I've got to agree. This is anecdotal, but Tim's Robin series was the first issue of a comic book I ever bought. It was the thing that got me into the medium. He's MY Robin, the one I grew up with as well as the one I relate to the most. The fact that DC spent a good decade or so with no idea what to do with him doesn't change any of that for me, and I'm sure there are a lot gf 80s/90s kids out there who agree with me.

[Aahz]

Before Tim, Dick Grayson had nearly 200 solo adventures. He is also the only Robin to significantly increase sales of the Batman Title.

I think that number is closer to 100 than to 200:
Dick had afaik solo Stories as Robin in
- in 66(?) issues Star Sprangled Comics
- Batman Family (ran for 20 issues)
- Detective Comics as a Back Up (not sure about the number)

Unless I'm drastically under estimating the number of Backups in Detective Comics, the totals number should be well below 150.

[dietrich]

I just don't understand this need to diminish Tims' accomplishment or how successful his Robin solo is...or the concept of Robin, really.

Because, yeah, people say Batman doesn't need a Robin but Robins' character function is important and always comes back in some form or another.

And Dick has had plenty of solo adventures but never a solo Robin series.

It's important to remember that the writer who wrote the Batman doesn't need Robin was Synder. A writer who believes that the concept is irresponsible [he is right] and not something Batman would do with a child in his care.

i don't think it was a slight at Robin or Tim.

They keep telling how Tim is the best Robin and how he is everyone's favourite. There's no danger of Tim being diminished.

We can recognise Tim's accomplishments as well those of the others especially the one who made Robin into the world's most iconic and successful sidekick.

Recognising Dick grayson's unparalleled Success and accomplishments as THE Robin also isn't a slight/diminishing Tim as Robin.

[failo.legendkiller]

Pushing Tim as the best Robin and highlighting evrey time how smart he is, is the way DC think to make him attractive since New 52.
It is totally wrong.
I fell in love with this character for totally other reasons.
He was the Robin who had to prove to earn the mantle. The respectful one, of Bruce, Dick, Jason and of the Robin legacy.
The one who knew that Batman needs a Robin. And I couldn’t agree more.
He was kind, gentle and never been arrogant or superb.
This storytelling of the Best, the Most, the One, doesn’t help at all the character and doesn’t suit him. At least the Tim Drake most of all started to love pre Flashpoint.

[Lal]

It's quite crucial to point out that Tim had a solo at a time that even Azreal was able to have his 100 issues run.
It doesn't mean that Tim isn't a great character or that his run wasn't good, but at that time it was much easier for sidekicks or other characters to have long, successful runs than it is now.

As for DC's strategy to rely on Tim's fanbase that believes he's the best Robin, I'm not sure this fanbase is as big as they hoped.
While Tim's DC pride story sold very well online, it apparently sold very poorly in stores and didn't even make the top 100 -
https://www.comicbookrevolution.com/...ales-rankings/
Same with YJ 1. A debut issue and a Dark crisis tie-in, that focuses on the original gang, didn't make the top 50.

While ICV2 ranking isn't perfect, they do raise a very concerning picture regarding Tim's popularity and the success of his new solo. Especially as these issues were written by the writer of his solo.

So while I'm sure there are Tim fans who are eager to read his new Robin series, distancing the fanbases of other Robins (that may like Tim but still don't consider him the best) really isn't working to his advantage.

[failo.legendkiller]

It's quite crucial to point out that Tim had a solo at a time that even Azreal was able to have his 100 issues run.
It doesn't mean that Tim isn't a great character or that his run wasn't good, but at that time it was much easier for sidekicks or other characters to have long, successful runs than it is now.

As for DC's strategy to rely on Tim's fanbase that believes he's the best Robin, I'm not sure this fanbase is as big as they hoped.
While Tim's DC pride story sold very well online, it apparently sold very poorly in stores and didn't even make the top 100 -
https://www.comicbookrevolution.com/...ales-rankings/
Same with YJ 1. A debut issue and a Dark crisis tie-in, that focuses on the original gang, didn't make the top 50.

While ICV2 ranking isn't perfect, they do raise a very concerning picture regarding Tim's popularity and the success of his new solo. Especially as these issues were written by the writer of his solo.

So while I'm sure there are Tim fans who are eager to read his new Robin series, distancing the fanbases of other Robins (that may like Tim but still don't consider him the best) really isn't working to his advantage.

Proplem is they are distancing Tim fan base too.
I don’t want to read a book where he is depicted as the best one or the smartest one.
These are not the character’s traits I loved.