Tim Drake: Robin, Red Robin, Appreciation 2022

[Darkspellmaster]

And that's why I'm hoping (or perhaps wishcasting) that the writer is eventually going for something a little more sophisticated than that. Not much more sophisticated, mind you. Just enough to steer this out of Rise of Arsenal territory.

PS I appreciate the fact that no one on Twitter seems to be going after the writer on her own feed. There has been a good deal of flaming of this book from the more egregiously toxic corners of fandom (enough to make me do an internal "Am I the Baddy?" check), and I'd really hate for the more reasoned criticisms to get drowned out by the jackwagons. If that started, I'd bow right the eff out of this conversation.

Yeah thats the thing. I'm coming from this as a female fan too. Part of yhe issue i have is that writing like this, even if its going to make sense in the end still needs to be nuanced. Right now this isn't and what I'm more worried about is that readers who never picked up the OG YJ will think what Cis is saying is really why she left. It makes fan writers, like myself, worry that people will use this as a "all twitter,tumbler, Fanfiction " is bad writing.

[Aahz]

PS I appreciate the fact that no one on Twitter seems to be going after the writer on her own feed. There has been a good deal of flaming of this book from the more egregiously toxic corners of fandom (enough to make me do an internal "Am I the Baddy?" check), and I'd really hate for the more reasoned criticisms to get drowned out by the jackwagons.

Thing is just because the guys are pretty toxic doesn't mean that they can't recognize bad writing.

And honestly putting out solits that read like a thinly vailed attack against all fans of the original version of these characters like this one:

HERE'S MICKEY! Mickey Mxyzptlk, son of Mr. Mxyzptlk, built the "perfect world" where he and the boys of Young Justice could rule without being criticized, without having to change, without ever having to grow up. Mickey has an ugly soul and too much power. The boys of Young Justice will have to overcome their shortcomings and defeat him to get back to the DCU they know and need!

isn't really much better.

[ducklord]

Thing is just because the guys are pretty toxic doesn't mean that they can't recognize bad writing.

True, but I cannot overstate how much I want nothing to do with the "go woke, go broke" back-alleys of fandom. I have no common cause with them.

And honestly putting out solits that read like a thinly vailed attack against all fans of the original version of these characters like this one:

HERE'S MICKEY! Mickey Mxyzptlk, son of Mr. Mxyzptlk, built the "perfect world" where he and the boys of Young Justice could rule without being criticized, without having to change, without ever having to grow up. Mickey has an ugly soul and too much power. The boys of Young Justice will have to overcome their shortcomings and defeat him to get back to the DCU they know and need!

isn't really much better.

See, I'm okay(ish) with Mickey turning out to be an admittedly blunt-force whipping boy straw man for toxic fandom - it's not the subtlest approach, but hey, it's comics. That said, the reveal had best come along with:
a) A narrative recognition that Mickey got the original YJ "all wrong," and
b) An explanation that Cissie's wayyyy OOC behavior is also somehow Mickey's doing.

This last one is kind of important, frankly - you really can't simultaneously say that Mickey's vision of the original YJ is horribly warped while simultaneously saying that Cissie's horribly warped version of the original YJ is the genuine article. That would be unacceptably lame.

Again, I realllllly hope that I'm not wishcasting.

[Drako]

True, but I cannot overstate how much I want nothing to do with the "go woke, go broke" back-alleys of fandom. I have no common cause with them.



See, I'm okay(ish) with Mickey turning out to be an admittedly blunt-force whipping boy straw man for toxic fandom - it's not the subtlest approach, but hey, it's comics. That said, the reveal had best come along with:
a) A narrative recognition that Mickey got the original YJ "all wrong," and
b) An explanation that Cissie's wayyyy OOC behavior is also somehow Mickey's doing.

This last one is kind of important, frankly - you really can't simultaneously say that Mickey's vision of the original YJ is horribly warped while simultaneously saying that Cissie's horribly warped version of the original YJ is the genuine article. That would be unacceptably lame.

Again, I realllllly hope that I'm not wishcasting.

Except Cissie is not trapped in Mickey universe.
She is in the regular world with Cassie, unless they changed this somehow saying that Cassie was transported to another universe.

I doubt the writer will came up with this explanations cause it looks like she think the exact way the writing expresses.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

True, but I cannot overstate how much I want nothing to do with the "go woke, go broke" back-alleys of fandom. I have no common cause with them.



See, I'm okay(ish) with Mickey turning out to be an admittedly blunt-force whipping boy straw man for toxic fandom - it's not the subtlest approach, but hey, it's comics. That said, the reveal had best come along with:
a) A narrative recognition that Mickey got the original YJ "all wrong," and
b) An explanation that Cissie's wayyyy OOC behavior is also somehow Mickey's doing.

This last one is kind of important, frankly - you really can't simultaneously say that Mickey's vision of the original YJ is horribly warped while simultaneously saying that Cissie's horribly warped version of the original YJ is the genuine article. That would be unacceptably lame.

Again, I realllllly hope that I'm not wishcasting.

I 100% think that as part of Mickey being a straw man he will be a Tim and Steph shipper to imply if you still like them together you part of the toxic fandom. Dark Crisis YJ issue 2 really makes me think he'll be like that.

[ohfellow]

I 100% think that as part of Mickey being a straw man he will be a Tim and Steph shipper to imply if you still like them together you part of the toxic fandom. Dark Crisis YJ issue 2 really makes me think he'll be like that.

That was the perspective already shared by Fake Batman.

Yet Fake Cassie spoke of Steph contemptuously as a superficial girl who would only "come back" to Tim if he became Batman.

Sounds contradictory - she's your destiny, but she's a social climber who will use Tim.

But they are complimentary, in that they represent two of the criticisms that Fitzmartin is leveling: 1) homophobia; 2) that women had little agency and only gained status by being attached to men of power.

Fake Cassie is offering up Steph as an example of the very thing Maybe Real/Make Fake Cissie is complaining about to Real Cassie. That the girls were tangential to the guys.

(This disdainful thing Fake Cassie says about Steph gets mostly overlooked, perhaps because it's overshadowed by the stuff Fake Batman says about Tim/Steph on the same page. But what Fake Cassie says about Steph is also disdainful of Tim, because she's suggesting that she thinks he'd be fine with the arrangement, and that it's a good reason for him to want to become Batman. Real Tim objects to the whole idea. But he doesn't defend Steph's character - he just says he's not interested in her. The character assassination is allowed to stand, at least for now. Maybe we better hope this version of Steph never appears -- don't want to try to imagine how she'd be written.)

[OBrianTallent]

At best, Fitzmarten is writing above her ability trying to be nuanced when she doesn't have that ability or skill (yet hopefully.) It kind of tracks with what Dark Crisis is supposed to be, a tribute to legacy, to nostalgia, but unless she's got some big awesome reveals coming, it's falling very flat.
At worst, this is her. It's a poor representation of well loved characters in a very loved book.
Regardless of it being her or her lack of skill it still is falling quite flat. I would prefer DC give the characters to someone who loves them and is able to write them accurately.


side question...wasn't fitzmarten one of the winners or graduates of DC's writing program a few years ago or am I thinking of someone else?

[ducklord]

Except Cissie is not trapped in Mickey universe.
She is in the regular world with Cassie, unless they changed this somehow saying that Cassie was transported to another universe.

I doubt the writer will came up with this explanations cause it looks like she think the exact way the writing expresses.

I fear you're correct, and that there won't be a semi-clever reveal that Cassie is also being mucked with by Mickey.

And yet, Cissie's behavior/dialog in the second issue is *so* weird that it seems like the writer is intentionally trying to call attention to it. I'll be sad if, in the end, the reason Cissie is so "off" is simply "bad writing."

[NOCTPHOENIX]

That was the perspective already shared by Fake Batman.

Yet Fake Cassie spoke of Steph contemptuously as a superficial girl who would only "come back" to Tim if he became Batman.

Sounds contradictory - she's your destiny, but she's a social climber who will use Tim.

But they are complimentary, in that they represent two of the criticisms that Fitzmartin is leveling: 1) homophobia; 2) that women had little agency and only gained status by being attached to men of power.

Fake Cassie is offering up Steph as an example of the very thing Maybe Real/Make Fake Cissie is complaining about to Real Cassie. That the girls were tangential to the guys.

(This disdainful thing Fake Cassie says about Steph gets mostly overlooked, perhaps because it's overshadowed by the stuff Fake Batman says about Tim/Steph on the same page. But what Fake Cassie says about Steph is also disdainful of Tim, because she's suggesting that she thinks he'd be fine with the arrangement, and that it's a good reason for him to want to become Batman. Real Tim objects to the whole idea. But he doesn't defend Steph's character - he just says he's not interested in her. The character assassination is allowed to stand, at least for now. Maybe we better hope this version of Steph never appears -- don't want to try to imagine how she'd be written.)

Again in the OG Young Justice, Cissie and Cassie weren't attached to the guys and had plenty of agency on their own. Even Steph in the original Robin series had plenty of agency seperate from Tim and was the deuteragonist. Not denying that what was said didn't apply to the 90's, it did but it is being applied to a context that fought against it which is why it falls flat. Also kind of ironic as the whole criticism Cissie leveled now makes Cissie revovle around the boys and Fitzmartin herself just used Steph as a prop in the Tim Pride special to shill Bernard..........

And yeah the lack of defence of Steph is pretty noticeable (also untrue as it was made clear MANY times Steph loved Tim regardless of the mask) and makes me think Fitzmartin used this bash Timsteph and paint this as what their relationship revolved around. More confirmation that Fitzmartin hates Steph

[Drako]

And yet, Cissie's behavior/dialog in the second issue is *so* weird that it seems like the writer is intentionally trying to call attention to it. I'll be sad if, in the end, the reason Cissie is so "off" is simply "bad writing."

I don't know, i tend to believe that the writer who made Steph say "This is the best day ever" when she was meeting the new boyfriend of her ex (who basically dumped and ghosted her) and wrote Cissie explaining pronouns out of nowhere for no reason at all has a great chance of being a bad at her job.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I don't know, i tend to believe that the writer who made Steph say "This is the best day ever" when she was meeting the new boyfriend of her ex (who basically dumped and ghosted her) and wrote Cissie explaining pronouns out of nowhere for no reason at all has a great chance of being a bad at her job.

Yep.

bad writing .jpg

And don't remind of that that panel with Steph. It is one of the worst things I've ever read in a comic. It's unreal anyone would think it would be good to write.

[ducklord]

I don't know, i tend to believe that the writer who made Steph say "This is the best day ever" when she was meeting the new boyfriend of her ex (who basically dumped and ghosted her) and wrote Cissie explaining pronouns out of nowhere for no reason at all has a great chance of being a bad at her job.

While steering far away from the Tim/Steph thing for the moment, I will say that Cissie's "Apropos of nothing, I'd like to pointlessly spend a panel introducing a character who will likely never be seen again seemingly just to drop some pronouns on you," moment is exactly the kind of thing that, in the hands of a writer trying to do something semi-subtle, might be a clue that things are a little off. Especially when combined with Cissie's bizarre take on her history with YJ.

But it's likely just awkward (and not good) writing.

Sigh.

[skyvolt2000]

Thing is just because the guys are pretty toxic doesn't mean that they can't recognize bad writing.

If you can't talk about the contents of the book without INSULTING the writer or tossing in the usual toxic fandom mess-you can't recognize bad writing.

side question...wasn't fitzmarten one of the winners or graduates of DC's writing program a few years ago or am I thinking of someone else?

Probably someone else as She is from the Tv side from the CW's Supernatural show.

Interesting comic wise everything she has done has been with Tim.

While she did Justice Society: World War II.

She is one of the final folks Dan bought in before he left. So unlike Marvel-Dan actually recruited folks already working in other parts of the company.

[Timekeeper]

"You're not in charge of me, I don't even wear a Bat." - Tim in the preview for Batman #126

[Frontier]

"You're not in charge of me, I don't even wear a Bat." - Tim in the preview for Batman #126

Not one of the nicer Bruce and Tim interactions.