Jon Kent/Superman/Superboy Appreciation 2022

[Rac7d*]

Has there been any confirmation they've explicitly identified the kid-version of Jon as queer in this movie?

none of the supersons comics ever touched on it

[garazza]

Has there been any confirmation they've explicitly identified the kid-version of Jon as queer in this movie?

No, but in the Invincible comic, there was a character who was straight that later came out as gay, but in the Invincible show, that character was gay right off the bat, so anything's possible.

[Vordan]

They won’t touch on Jon’s sexuality in this, I guarantee it.

[Frontier]

They won’t touch on Jon’s sexuality in this, I guarantee it.

Yeah, that's probably more likely to come up in the Legion cartoon.

[garazza]

They won’t touch on Jon’s sexuality in this, I guarantee it.

They don't need to. A bi flag in his bedroom or a bi pin on his backpack is all they need to do. If not, DC are the ones who made Jon bi at 17 and retroactively made him bi in all his previous appearances, whether they like it or not. DC can't pussyfoot or back themselves out of this one like they did with black Wally West. We all know better.

[Vordan]

They don't need to. A bi flag in his bedroom or a bi pin on his backpack is all they need to do. If not, DC are the ones who made Jon bi at 17 and retroactively made him bi in all his previous appearances, whether they like it or not. DC can't pussyfoot or back themselves out of this one like they did with black Wally West.

They won’t do that either man lol (funny you should mention the Wally bit since this uses the white Wally instead of the black Wallace). I will make a prediction that no kid Jon content will ever reference his bisexuality in any way, he will only be shown to have interest in girls, and that’s if they ever acknowledge his sexuality at all. Reason being is that 1. DC/WB are probably cowardly and afraid of being accused of “grooming” and 2. The original Super Sons stories were written before they decided to make Jon bi. You’re more likely to see Kathy and Maya show up and get paired with Jon and Damian than you are to see Jon express an interest in a male.

Frontier has the right of it I believe that any acknowledgment of Jon’s queerness will be restricted to “adult” animated features where he’s a teen like the Legion show. Would love to be wrong but that’s my prediction.

[Frontier]

I want to see animated Kathy and Maya...

[garazza]

They won’t do that either man lol (funny you should mention the Wally bit since this uses the white Wally instead of the black Wallace). I will make a prediction that no kid Jon content will ever reference his bisexuality in any way, he will only be shown to have interest in girls, and that’s if they ever acknowledge his sexuality at all. Reason being is that 1. DC/WB are probably cowardly and afraid of being accused of “grooming” and 2. The original Super Sons stories were written before they decided to make Jon bi. You’re more likely to see Kathy and Maya show up and get paired with Jon and Damian than you are to see Jon express an interest in a male.

Frontier has the right of it I believe that any acknowledgment of Jon’s queerness will be restricted to “adult” animated features where he’s a teen like the Legion show. Would love to be wrong but that’s my prediction.

Disney is one of the most sexless companies I can think of and it gets accused of "grooming" for, among other things, depicting a girl getting her first period, so I doubt WB and DC will heed baseless and superficial accusations like that. They wouldn't have made him bi in the first place and they wouldn't have also pushed Tom Taylor to make the bi reveal happen sooner than he planned if they were that afraid.

The original Super Sons and Rebirth stories didn't show Jon as heterosexual either (y'all read WAY too much into Jon's interactions with Kathy it would make even Avril Lavigne look at you sideways). DC can't say Jon is bi when he's 17 but not when he's a kid without flying in the face of basic reality and incurring actual accusation of homophobia. It's not my fault queer people were queer when they were kids even if they only come out later in life. So, WB and DC should either nut up or shut up, and they've shown themselves to be on the side of nutting up.

Furthermore, BoSS will be PG-13, so even if DC wants to feed into the stereotype that a character's orientation is somehow an "adult" topic, a PG-13 rating won't preclude that. Remember, this is the same movie that will say "************" and have depictions of body horror so we're not in for a milquetoast Care Bears movie. A bi flag or pin is the least of anyone's concerns.

I want to see animated Kathy and Maya...

We don't even see whether the Kents are living in Hamilton or Metropolis, so it's possible we'll see Kathy as one of his classmates.

[Vordan]

Disney is one of the most sexless companies I can think of and it gets accused of "grooming" for, among other things, depicting a girl getting her first period, so I doubt WB and DC will heed baseless and superficial accusations like that. They wouldn't have made him bi in the first place and they wouldn't have also pushed Tom Taylor to make the bi reveal happen sooner than he planned if they were that afraid.

The original Super Sons and Rebirth stories didn't show Jon as heterosexual either (y'all read WAY too much into Jon's interactions with Kathy it would make even Avril Lavigne look at you sideways).

Jon and Kathy was a blatantly obvious “childhood crush” pairing. If he had interacted with Damian the way he did with Kathy, getting nervous every time she showed up, holding hands while flying straight out of the Superman/Lois romance in the Donner films, you guys would have been in a frenzy and claimed it as obvious evidence he was gay. Tomasi isn’t a subtle writer, he wasn’t disguising his intention there. If you feel otherwise you can always just ask him on Twitter what he saw their relationship being, and if he contradicts me then I’ll concede the point.

[garazza]

Jon and Kathy was a blatantly obvious “childhood crush” pairing. If he had interacted with Damian the way he did with Kathy, getting nervous every time she showed up, holding hands while flying straight out of the Superman/Lois romance in the Donner films, you guys would have been in a frenzy and claimed it as obvious evidence he was gay. Tomasi isn’t a subtle writer, he wasn’t disguising his intention there. If you feel otherwise you can always just ask him on Twitter what he saw their relationship being, and if he contradicts me then I’ll concede the point.

Jon interacted with Kathy much in the same manner he did with Damian from my reading, so unless Tomasi was also working on Jon also having a crush on Damian (which would be lit, but unlikely), they weren't anything except for friends.

Let's go over the issues of Superman Rebirth.

In issue 1, she sees Jon incinerate his cat and a hawk with his heat vision, so when she goes to his house with some milk, I would be nervous, too, not because I liked the milk maid.

In issue 2, Jon and Kathy talk about Jon having powers and when she touches his hand as a form of comfort, his hand instantly tenses up, as would anyone's at an unexpected touch, except his powers fluctuate, so instead of an involuntary muscle twitch, he snaps the branch they're sitting on with his super strength.

In issue 7, I don't know if it's because I'm gay, but I don't see how anyone can see the interactions between Jon and Kathy as anything other than platonic unless they're of the mind that if a boy and a girl are next to each other, that surely means they're into each other. Hell, Jon almost turning down Kathy's offer to come see her cow is something I would've totally done if I were in his position (which I often was because I also grew up in the county and the 4-H fair was a regular occurrence and something to look forward to).

In issue 10, they leave school together because that's what friends do, as we saw be established in the county fair issue. The bully character sees their innocent interaction and erroneously thinks they're going to kiss because what better way to establish a character as ignorant than to have them assume that a boy and a girl are into each other simply because they're interacting with each other. It's a classic trope that in reality has no romantic implications more often that not.

In issue 17, they go into the woods at night because Kathy asked Jon for help. I doubt the reason why he agreed to help was because he had a crush on the girl who was asking.

In issue 20 and 21 before the Manchester Black reveal, they race each other home and Kathy asks if they can play later. Pretty innocuous interactions if you ask me. She doesn't force-choke Damian because she has a crush on the boy he was beating up before she intervened.

In issue 25, Jon takes Kathy flying and that is the only thing that has even a hint of romantic implications, but I don't automatically assume that if someone took a friend flying, it's because they're into them, regardless of presentation.

In issue 42, they look at Bizarro World and Kathy calls Jon handsome after seeing how ugly Bizarro Jon looked and Jon just shrugs it off instead of being caught up by it, almost as if he didn't see it like a compliment but as a part of the platonic banter they were having.

In issue 43, Maya refers to Kathy as Jon's "girlfriend." but since when do we let a third party dictate what the relationship is between two people especially when that person is very clearly being sarcastic.

In issue 44, they have an adventure in Bizarro World and Jon was into Kathy just as much as he was into Maya, which is not at all.

In issue 45, they go to the county fair one more time and they do and say nothing together that Jon wouldn't do with any other friend.

I can see how some would read their interactions as a crush, and maybe if Tomasi and Gleason were allowed to have a run like King's Batman or Williamson's Flash, they would've had more interactions and time to develop and I might have even been on board for that because then they would have had put in the requisite amount of work to make that possible and not just make it happen for the sake of it happening. Instead, they never got the chance to pull the trigger, so Jon and Kathy never came across to me as anything other than friends. Kathy could've been the Girl Next Door love interest, but having grown up with actual girls next door and my relationship with them looking a lot Jon and Kathy's, it rubs me the wrong way to see boys and girls be unable to be seen as nothing other than love interests when they're together.

And on a side note, if there was more to their interactions, wouldn't Kathy be more of a Lana to Jon than Lois?

[Vordan]

In issue 1, she sees Jon incinerate his cat and a hawk with his heat vision, so when she goes to his house with some milk, I would be nervous, too, not because I liked the milk maid.

That wasn’t nervousness borne of attraction agreed

In issue 2, Jon and Kathy talk about Jon having powers and when she touches his hand as a form of comfort, his hand instantly tenses up, as would anyone's at an unexpected touch, except his powers fluctuate, so instead of an involuntary muscle twitch, he snaps the branch they're sitting on with his super strength.

No dude that was blatantly obviously “this girl I’m starting to develop feelings for is touching me, oh ****”. See also: Clark’s heat vision activating when he kissed Lana for the first time in Secret Origin.

In issue 7, I don't know if it's because I'm gay, but I don't see how anyone can see the interactions between Jon and Kathy as anything other than platonic unless they're of the mind that if a boy and a girl are next to each other, that surely means they're into each other. Hell, Jon almost turning down Kathy's offer to come see her cow is something I would've totally done if I were in his position (which I often was because I also grew up in the county and the 4-H fair was a regular occurrence and something to look forward to).

Nah that was Jon wanting to hang out with her, he invites her to go on rides with him continuing the plot line began in the tree, but disliking cows and being immature means he almost screws up his chances with her which is why Lois steps in.

055C9740-5E74-482C-B0C8-4F4430E960F9.jpg

This is definitely signaling that these two like each other.

In issue 10, they leave school together because that's what friends do, as we saw be established in the county fair issue. The bully character sees their innocent interaction and erroneously thinks they're going to kiss because what better way to establish a character as ignorant than to have them assume that a boy and a girl are into each other simply because they're interacting with each other. It's a classic trope that in reality has no romantic implications more often that not.

It’s also a classic trope to have other characters pick up on romantic interest between two characters before the two characters even realize it themselves. Also Maya showing up is classic “another girl enters the picture and threatens to ‘steal’ the boy away before the girl can make her own move”.

In issue 17, they go into the woods at night because Kathy asked Jon for help. I doubt the reason why he agreed to help was because he had a crush on the girl who was asking.

Dude come on:

2217DAC4-B6EF-45B0-8C4F-10D6595D97F3.jpg

Look at this page! Kathy leaning into Jon, Jon smiling and touching her hand for comfort. If people can concoct elaborate fanfic about Kon having feelings for Tim you have to be blind or in denial to see what Tomasi is doing here.

In issue 20 and 21 before the Manchester Black reveal, they race each other home and Kathy asks if they can play later. Pretty innocuous interactions if you ask me. She doesn't force-choke Damian because she has a crush on the boy he was beating up before she intervened.

Uhhh she kind of does? What Kathy is doing is no different from how M’gann reacted to Lor attacking Conner in the S4 finale of YJ. It’s very “hands off my man” albeit done at Manchester Black’s direction.

In issue 25, Jon takes Kathy flying and that is the only thing that has even a hint of romantic implications, but I don't automatically assume that if someone took a friend flying, it's because they're into them, regardless of presentation.

Three reasons it is a romantic moment:
1. It’s immediately followed by a page of Clark and Lois kissing. The parallel is obvious and intentional
2. As I said it’s copying another iconic Clark & Lois moment form the Donner films
3. Jon takes Kathy to a private place and tells her how much he cares for her and we get a panel where they hold each other’s hands, smile, and look into each other’s eyes before flying. If Kon did that with Tim would you guys say it was just a “bro” moment?

In issue 42, they look at Bizarro World and Kathy calls Jon handsome after seeing how ugly Bizarro Jon looked and Jon just shrugs it off instead of being caught up by it, almost as if he didn't see it like a compliment but as a part of the platonic banter they were having.

He’s an immature boy still who doesn’t know how to handle compliments.

In issue 43, Maya refers to Kathy as Jon's "girlfriend." but since when do we let a third party dictate what the relationship is between two people especially when that person is very clearly being sarcastic.

If multiple other people keep saying it well it’s probably something the writer is intentionally drawing attention to no?

In issue 44, they have an adventure in Bizarro World and Jon was into Kathy just as much as he was into Maya, which is not at all.

In issue 45, they go to the county fair one more time and they do and say nothing together that Jon wouldn't do with any other friend.

There’s no romantic moments between the two but at that point Tomasi likely knew what was going to happen with Jon and was told to wrap everything up so that Jon would be free for Bendis to do what he wanted.

I can see how some would read their interactions as a crush, and maybe if Tomasi and Gleason were allowed to have a run like King's Batman or Williamson's Flash, they would've had more interactions and time to develop and I might have even been on board for that because then they would have had put in the requisite amount of work to make that possible and not just make it happen for the sake of it happening. Instead, they never got the chance to pull the trigger, so Jon and Kathy never came across to me as anything other than friends. Kathy could've been the Girl Next Door love interest, but having grown up with actual girls next door and my relationship with them looking a lot Jon and Kathy's, it rubs me the wrong way to see boys and girls be unable to be seen as nothing other than love interests when they're together.

And on a side note, if there was more to their interactions, wouldn't Kathy be more of a Lana to Jon than Lois?

Tomasi was clearly playing the long game because he and Gleason thought they’d be on for 100 issues. Instead it got cut short and he had to wrap it up before he could reach his intended ending. But the intent was there: Kathy was Jon’s Lana, his first childhood friend turned crush. It’s patently obvious because he wasn’t subtle. Damian and Maya are an example of a platonic friendship where Gleason went out of his way to make it clear Maya didn’t have feelings for Damian. That’s not the route they went with Kathy. This run was all about reestablishing “classic” Superman: back in a small town with “Superboy” and his next door neighbor girlfriend just like the Silver Age.

If Tomasi was writing Jon into teenage years I guarantee you that Jon and Kathy would have gotten together and she would have been his official girlfriend. At no point did Tomasi even hint at the idea that Jon was anything other than a mini Clark to be, including his sexuality. Hell we KNOW that wasn’t the intent because it wasn’t until 5G that DC decided maybe Jon should be bi!

Here’s a good rule of thumb: if you swap Kathy and Jon out for Jay and Jon, or Tim and Kon, or whatever gay couple you ship, does the scene suddenly seem romantic? Because I feel confident we would not be arguing over Tomasi’s intent if Jon had done all the stuff he does with Kathy with a male “friend”. I mean people picked up that Taylor was putting Jon and Jay together from the moment the two started interacting, and their initial encounters weren’t dissimilar from Jon and Kathy’s. And really do you think they made Jon bi instead of gay because DC didn’t want to invalidate his romance with Saturn Girl? Nah it was Kathy, that’s who they were thinking of when they were trying to figure out what Jon’s sexuality should be. They didn’t want to nullify that relationship for future adaptions (and also didn’t want to force adaptions of Jon to change how they handled him but that’s a different story).

[Monari]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think Vordan is right on this, and it does affirm his bisexuality. That said, nothing about sexuality is fluid and it is always changing, so we could very well see Jon realize in the future that he is 100% gay.

[garazza]

No dude that was blatantly obviously “this girl I’m starting to develop feelings for is touching me, oh ****”. See also: Clark’s heat vision activating when he kissed Lana for the first time in Secret Origin.

Then Gleason didn't do a very good job of communicating that because the way the page is laid out, it goes *touch* then immediately followed by *snap*. Without seeing how the rest of Jon reacted, it comes off as him being startled at the sudden physical contact than reacting because the girl he likes touches him. I haven't read Secret Origin, so I can't speak to that.

Nah that was Jon wanting to hang out with her, he invites her to go on rides with him continuing the plot line began in the tree, but disliking cows and being immature means he almost screws up his chances with her which is why Lois steps in.

Jon also didn't want to go to his school's tent, so it seemed to me that Jon turning down Kathy's invitation was because he wanted to spend more time on rides and eating food and not having to do anything where he has to stand around and talk, something kids Jon's age loath, especially when they're surrounded by more fun things. Lois' intervention came off to me as her pushing Jon to be more social and hang out with his peers instead of being stuck with his parents for the rest of the night (not that Jon would've minded hanging out with his P's). Afterwards, Jon's invitation to go on rides is one he would've extended to any other kid his age and not just the girl he supposedly likes because a county fair is better when it's done with friends.

055C9740-5E74-482C-B0C8-4F4430E960F9.jpg

This is definitely signaling that these two like each other.

Eeeeeeeeh, I'll concede this is the earliest indication that maybe, maybe, they might like each other, but that's reading too much into what otherwise comes off to me as a sweet and innocent interaction. Kathy is glad Jon will come by later for no reason other than to share something with a friend and Jon is abashed that she responded so positively to his acceptance.

It’s also a classic trope to have other characters pick up on romantic interest between two characters before the two characters even realize it themselves. Also Maya showing up is classic “another girl enters the picture and threatens to ‘steal’ the boy away before the girl can make her own move”.

I'm not a fan of being told how I feel because you're not me, what the hell do you know, and that extends to fictional characters, especially when it's a boy and a girl and someone assumes they must be into each other because boys and girls can't be friends, only love interests. I'm hesitant to agree with your assertion about Maya because their interaction is so brief and only served one purpose to show that Damian is keeping tabs on Jon. If there was more to their interaction to showcase that, then sure, but if that were the case, then I would push back with why does every interaction Jon has a girl have to have romantic implications?

Dude come on:

2217DAC4-B6EF-45B0-8C4F-10D6595D97F3.jpg

Look at this page! Kathy leaning into Jon, Jon smiling and touching her hand for comfort. If people can concoct elaborate fanfic about Kon having feelings for Tim you have to be blind or in denial to see what Tomasi is doing here.

I'd do what Jon and Kathy did if I was also chased through the woods and a haunted house and forced to hide in a well. What, was Kathy supposed to hang onto Jon's ankles and was Jon not supposed to express relief with the person he just shared a harrowing experience with?

I have a huge issue with those people who take out of contexts interaction between Tim and Kon and interpret them to mean anything other than what they mean in context. I have the same issue with people who think the YJ4 all share one brain cell when that's just no. Either read the works for what they are or don't read them at all. The one thing I'll give in favor to Tim and Kon is that they had a couple of decades worth of stories and interactions for fans to draw a larger pattern from. Jon and Kathy never had that chance and I won't read into them what should have been instead of what we actually got.

Uhhh she kind of does? What Kathy is doing is no different from how M’gann reacted to Lor attacking Conner in the S4 finale of YJ. It’s very “hands off my man” albeit done at Manchester Black’s direction.

I haven't seen YJ S4 so I also can't speak to that. Kathy operating under Manchester's direction was all I could derive from that scene when she was equally threatening to both Damian and Jon.

Three reasons it is a romantic moment:
1. It’s immediately followed by a page of Clark and Lois kissing. The parallel is obvious and intentional
2. As I said it’s copying another iconic Clark & Lois moment form the Donner films
3. Jon takes Kathy to a private place and tells her how much he cares for her and we get a panel where they hold each other’s hands, smile, and look into each other’s eyes before flying. If Kon did that with Tim would you guys say it was just a “bro” moment?

1. I never noticed that it was supposed to be a parallel, so I'll concede that.
2. I did notice that it was supposed to be a homage, but that's all it was to me. A homage. I didn't derive any deeper meaning because comics are always recreating iconic imagery purely for its referential value. How many times has the DKR lightning pose cover been recreated?
3. 100% unironically, yes. I don't have to imagine Tim and Kon because Jon already took his male best friend on a flight when they rode in the back of a truck in an issue of Super Sons. While sharing a flight can be romantic, it can just as easily not be. Male friends are allowed to have and share intimate moments that have no romantic implications and that's how I see Jon and Damian and that's how I would've seen Tim and Kon.

If multiple other people keep saying it well it’s probably something the writer is intentionally drawing attention to no?

If Maya said that out loud, Jon would have most likely responded with a "She's not my girlfriend. She is a girl and she is my friend but she is not my girlfriend." If Kathy were a boy, Maya would've said "boyfriend" and the implication would've been the same. It was a derisive remark with no deeper meaning.

[garazza]

There’s no romantic moments between the two but at that point Tomasi likely knew what was going to happen with Jon and was told to wrap everything up so that Jon would be free for Bendis to do what he wanted.

If that were the case, then why did he and Gleason not go ahead and pull the trigger and tie up their remaining loose plot threads and just have Kathy kiss Jon (probably a peck on the cheek) for at least some kind of conclusion or closure. Instead, Sgt. Rock and Dinosaur Island is what they chose to end their run on instead of anything else.

Tomasi was clearly playing the long game because he and Gleason thought they’d be on for 100 issues. Instead it got cut short and he had to wrap it up before he could reach his intended ending. But the intent was there: Kathy was Jon’s Lana, his first childhood friend turned crush. It’s patently obvious because he wasn’t subtle. Damian and Maya are an example of a platonic friendship where Gleason went out of his way to make it clear Maya didn’t have feelings for Damian. That’s not the route they went with Kathy. This run was all about reestablishing “classic” Superman: back in a small town with “Superboy” and his next door neighbor girlfriend just like the Silver Age.

I didn't actually see their run as reestablishing classic Superman until you pointed it out just now. Still, Jon was very much doing his own thing and wasn't the Clark clone some claim because their run was more "timeless" than "classic" so any parallels of Jon with Clark were not meant to be one to one but simply reminiscent of familiar beats without actually following them.

If Tomasi was writing Jon into teenage years I guarantee you that Jon and Kathy would have gotten together and she would have been his official girlfriend. At no point did Tomasi even hint at the idea that Jon was anything other than a mini Clark to be, including his sexuality. Hell we KNOW that wasn’t the intent because it wasn’t until 5G that DC decided maybe Jon should be bi!

If Tomasi were still writing Jon, his teenage years would still be several decades away which would have been plenty of time to fully purge the false perception of Jon as a Clark clone because some people are apparently incapable of fathoming of a character evolving beyond their basic outline while that character is still new. If Tomasi and Gleason were allowed to finish their run, no one would be saying Jon was just a Clark clone because they would have had several years worth of stories showing just how much that is not true.

Here’s a good rule of thumb: if you swap Kathy and Jon out for Jay and Jon, or Tim and Kon, or whatever gay couple you ship, does the scene suddenly seem romantic? Because I feel confident we would not be arguing over Tomasi’s intent if Jon had done all the stuff he does with Kathy with a male “friend”.

No, I would be making the exact same points I'm making now. Switch Kathy out with the little black kid Jon was friends with at the start of Super Sons and all their interactions would be equally non-romantic.

I mean people picked up that Taylor was putting Jon and Jay together from the moment the two started interacting, and their initial encounters weren’t dissimilar from Jon and Kathy’s.

Jay was a character pulled straight from Tumblr and TT took all his writing cues from those media illiterates, so of course they picked up on it when they were specifically being pandered to. And Jon didn't kiss Kathy after only five issues of interacting. If they did, I would be seriously pissed. At least Tomasi was taking his time instead of blowing his load early just to be seen as Good PersonTM.

And really do you think they made Jon bi instead of gay because DC didn’t want to invalidate his romance with Saturn Girl? Nah it was Kathy, that’s who they were thinking of when they were trying to figure out what Jon’s sexuality should be. They didn’t want to nullify that relationship for future adaptions (and also didn’t want to force adaptions of Jon to change how they handled him but that’s a different story).

How does being gay invalidate any previous relationship? What are you, a Steph stan? Bisexuality is not some cheap cop out. It is its own identity and not some half-way compromise between gay and straight. They made Jon bi because they wanted to make him bi and not because they wanted to make him gay and someone said "But what about the cishets! What will they think?" The proper response is, "Who cares?"

EDIT: Holy ****, I did not intend to write a response so long that the site forced me to put it into two posts, but I spent too long going point by point to not post, so don't feel the need to respond because I probably wouldn't respond to me either.

[Vordan]

Yeah I won’t reply to all of that lol, we clearly differ a lot on how we read Tomasi work which is fine. An old relationship is invalidated imo if there is a reveal that one person was never really attracted to the other but merely pretending or forcing themselves to be in a relationship. If Jon were gay that means that he was never really into Kathy or Irma, just forcing himself to pretend to be, he could still care for them, but he wasn’t actually romantically interested in them. That’s what I meant by using that word.

I do think you’re far more idealistic about the nature of corporate boardroom discussions when it comes to stuff like this then I am, I absolutely think “how will the cishets take this” factored into not only who they chose to make LGBT but why they chose the sexuality they did for Jon and Tim. That comes from my own and my gay brother’s experience with corporate “inclusivity” and maybe you’ve been lucky to have had a better experience with these corporates attempts to diversify and be more accepting of LGBT matters.

And no I couldn’t care less about Steph, she and Tim are low on my list of Batfamily members I care about. Nothing personal towards either (ok maybe I am a little steamed that Tim can’t graduate from Robin and Damian might be losing the title because Tim is the “gifted” kid who can’t seem to amount to anything).