Jon Kent/Superman/Superboy Appreciation 2022

[manwhohaseverything]

As much as I don't care for the basic shounen protagonist archetype (Naruto, Natsu, Luffy, Asta, Goku, Sora, like....almost every red ranger in Super Sentai) the last thing I can call any of them is bland.

The thing about shounen protagonist is that they are incredibly different when you get right into it..Is luffy like naruto?nope!not even close.Is goku like natsu?nope!they all diverge in their stories.Their personalities,usage in stories,world view..etc are totally different from one another.Even if they are all basically monkey kings.Ofcourse,i could certainly see different treatment with jon even if jon is based on monkey king archetype..O mean,he has a boyscout jesus dad for one.That's pretty different.

[Blue22]

They all have their quirks that make them different, but they all still follow the same basic "super confident, loudmouthed moron who loves to eat and fight" stereotype. I'd say the ones who diverges the most from that is Sora. They have their quirks and actions that make me prefer some over others (I'll gladly take Luffy over Goku and Asta), but at their core...they're still a painfully overused trope. And I'd still take all of them over Jon. Hell, I actually like Luffy and Naruto. Sora...lost me with KH3.

[manwhohaseverything]

They all have their quirks that make them different, but they all still follow the same basic "super confident, loudmouthed moron who loves to eat and fight" stereotype. I'd say the ones who diverges the most from that is Sora. They have their quirks and actions that make me prefer some over others (I'll gladly take Luffy over Goku and Asta), but at their core...they're still a painfully overused trope. And I'd still take all of them over Jon.

Actually,no.Just take naruto and luffy.naruto would first talk then punch..Luffy won't punch unless you get in his way.Naruto is incredibly sensitive and listens to people,their pasts..etc.Gives his dumb speeches. luffy doesn't care about the past.He is all about the present, dreams and ambition.Naruto cares about saving people.He wants to be this heroic figure.Luffy doesn't give too hoot about that.He does what he wants.Naruto hasn't been an idiot since he was a kid.Luffy?he is more intuitive.He has this tough love thing going for him.Luffy is bluntly honest.. doesn't bullshit.He doesn't use empathy.Naruto is all about building bridges.

Simply put luffy is a liberator..The champion of the oppressed(even if he himself might not see that he is liberating people good or bad)...The sun god ..naruto?he is a savior orphan who been through tough time uses empathy and cooperation to solve problems.

It's not just quirks.They are entirely different characters.Similar to how broadly goldenage superman,silverage superman and post donner/byrne superman are wildly different characters.

The idiot bit is comic relief and even that is less.Also, even jujutsu kaisen takes the standard shounen protagonist and does things differently.If these guys where the same,the shounen protagonist would have been stale by now.

[Frontier]

They all have their quirks that make them different, but they all still follow the same basic "super confident, loudmouthed moron who loves to eat and fight" stereotype. I'd say the ones who diverges the most from that is Sora. They have their quirks and actions that make me prefer some over others (I'll gladly take Luffy over Goku and Asta), but at their core...they're still a painfully overused trope. And I'd still take all of them over Jon. Hell, I actually like Luffy and Naruto. Sora...lost me with KH3.

For some reason I've never 100% liked Luffy.

Like, I get him, I understand his appeal, I understand his values, but something about him just turns me off. Feels like if I met him I'd be tempted to either eat with him or sock him in the face because he rubbed me the wrong way.

Asta, though...Asta is my boi .

Actually,no.Just take naruto and luffy.naruto would first talk then punch..Luffy won't punch unless you get in his way.Naruto is incredibly sensitive and listens to people,their pasts..etc.Gives his dumb speeches. luffy doesn't care about the past.He is all about the present, dreams and ambition.Naruto cares about saving people.He wants to be this heroic figure.Luffy doesn't give too hoot about that.He does what he wants.Naruto hasn't been an idiot since he was a kid.Luffy?he is more intuitive.He has this tough love thing going for him.Luffy bluntly honest.. doesn't bullshit.He doesn't use empathy.Naruto is all about building bridges.

I think it's more accurate to say he's not as much of an idiot.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think it's more accurate to say he's not as much of an idiot.

Yeah!i don't view him as an idiot at all.Especialy,now as an adult..Honestly,he never was..even as a kid.The kinda tactics and strategies he pulls in fights even as kid..Just look at the zabuza fight.. That's not an idiot..Look at superman,he trips over green rocks in comparison.

[Rac7d*]

The problem with Jon's personality is that there's really not a definable personality to speak of that don't include traits that he has from his dad. He doesn't really have his own anything. His own archetype, his own style, his own character. He's one of the biggest blank slates I've ever read about, with only the occasional lip service about how pressured/scared he allegedly feels.

As much as I don't care for the basic shounen protagonist archetype (Naruto, Natsu, Luffy, Asta, Goku, Sora, like....almost every red ranger in Super Sentai) the last thing I can call any of them is bland. Overused, yes. Definitely wish we had less Narutos and Astas and more Dekus, Edwards, and Makas. But I'll take that over the bland lego brick that Jon is. He's like that unnecessary ninth main character they turned into the main focus of Digimon Tri.

Fucking Bella from Twilight is a better defined character than Jon right now. At least her actions back up the selfishness, immaturity, and mental instability that you read in her inner monologues (whether those traits were intentional on the author's part is a whole other can of worms lol). Jon will (VERY RARELY) tell you how he feels, but he doesn't really...show it. He says he doesn't want to be Superman, that he's still traumatized from what Bendis put him through, that he's (in general) struggling....But that's never really shown. And I honestly doubt it will be as long as Taylor's in full fanservice mode (Which is a problem he's been having in Nightwing too. And I actually like that book.). The little borderline Gary Stu is thriving right now and comes off like he enjoys every second of it.

That's been the problem with SoKE from the start. It takes Taylor's biggest weakness as a writer and cranks it up to 11 to try and make you love this character. It's all fluff and fanservice, with very little in the way of substance. His Nightwing has the exact same problem, but it's easier to get away with that with a long running and clearly defined character like Dick Grayson. We already know who he is. This was supposed to be the moment where we get to know who this new Jon is. But outside of being Superman's kid...he's nothing.

What were Jon’s definable traits when he was young?

[Frontier]

Yeah!i don't view him as an idiot at all.Especialy,now as an adult..Honestly,he never was..even as a kid.The kinda tactics and strategies he pulls in fights even as kid..Just look at the zabuza fight.. That's not an idiot..Look at superman,he trips over green rocks in comparison.

Well, he was impulsive, there were a lot of finer things and nuances that he doesn't quite get or never understood and he ran on pure instinct, but he was very intuitive and clever (he's the #1 knuckleheaded Ninja for a reason)...but still kind of dumb .

Of course, it's kind of different when he's Hokage.

I mean, there's a lot of Kryptonite on Earth...

What were Jon’s definable traits when he was young?

Inquisitiveness, impulsiveness, innocence, enthusiasm, etc...

[manwhohaseverything]

Well, he was impulsive, there were a lot of finer things and nuances that he doesn't quite get or never understood and he ran on pure instinct, but he was very intuitive and clever (he's the #1 knuckleheaded Ninja for a reason)...but still kind of dumb .

Of course, it's kind of different when he's Hokage.

I mean, there's a lot of Kryptonite on Earth...

Inquisitiveness, impulsiveness, innocence, enthusiasm, etc...

Yes,he was called a knuckle head..Always,saw that as something due to him acting out to get attention from the very village that treated him like shit.I wouldn't call naruto intuitive type.Nope!he makes strategies.Intuitive type would be someone like bakugo.Luffy is intuitive(He has planted his feet and now the world needs to move..not him).Superman is intuitive(but his instincts sucks.)

there are a lot of poisnous rocks and plants(for humans) on earth.Doesn't mean we go around tripping all over the place.

They are all enthusiastic and innocent.i will grant you that.

Impulsiveness,inquisitiveness? yeah!luffy get's inquisitive if there is a new frontier and adventure.He is impulsive all the time(It's more of a plan really..just watch the don krieg fight..Luffy is willing to punch throw any barricade even if he gets his hand broken in the process).He is a straight arrow to the point.Naruto isn't impulsive or inquisitive.Naruto get's angry for the people on the behalf he empathises with gets hurt(which is all of them..even the villains like gaara,neji,obito..etc.).He would go the extra mile for them..That's it.

[Frontier]

Yes,he was called a knuckle head..Always,saw that as something due to him acting out to get attention from the very village that treated him like shit.I wouldn't call naruto intuitive type.Nope!he makes strategies.Intuitive type would be someone like bakugo.Luffy is intuitive(He has planted his feet and now the world needs to move..not him).Superman is intuitive(but his instincts sucks.)

Yeah, because he had a rough upbringing and was immature and didn't know what else to do. Naruto can be plenty intuitive when he acts on instinct and pulls something nobody would have expected in the middle of a battle.

I don't see where Superman's specific instincts suck unless they're not to your taste.

there are a lot of poisnous rocks and plants(for humans) on earth.Doesn't mean we go around tripping all over the place.

Neither does Superman, really. It's not like Kryptonite is in every story and I don't think it's as commonplace as plants.

Impulsiveness,inquisitiveness? yeah!luffy get's inquisitive if there is a new frontier and adventure.He is impulsive all the time(It's more of a plan really..just watch the don krieg fight..Luffy is willing to punch throw any barricade even if he gets his hand broken in the process).He is a straight arrow to the point.Naruto isn't impulsive or inquisitive.Naruto get's angry for the people on the behalf he empathises with gets hurt(which is all of them..even the villains like gaara,neji,obito..etc.).He would go the extra mile for them..That's it.

I wasn't actually comparing Jon to Shonen heroes when I was listing those...

Naruto has a tendency to leap before he thinks constantly to the point where he has to be held back. He is for sure impulsive.

[Konja7]

Actually,no.Just take naruto and luffy.naruto would first talk then punch..Luffy won't punch unless you get in his way.Naruto is incredibly sensitive and listens to people,their pasts..etc.Gives his dumb speeches. luffy doesn't care about the past.He is all about the present, dreams and ambition.Naruto cares about saving people.He wants to be this heroic figure.Luffy doesn't give too hoot about that.He does what he wants.Naruto hasn't been an idiot since he was a kid.Luffy?he is more intuitive.He has this tough love thing going for him.Luffy is bluntly honest.. doesn't bullshit.He doesn't use empathy.Naruto is all about building bridges.

Simply put luffy is a liberator..The champion of the oppressed(even if he himself might not see that he is liberating people good or bad)...The sun god ..naruto?he is a savior orphan who been through tough time uses empathy and cooperation to solve problems.

It's not just quirks.They are entirely different characters.Similar to how broadly goldenage superman,silverage superman and post donner/byrne superman are wildly different characters.

The idiot bit is comic relief and even that is less.Also, even jujutsu kaisen takes the standard shounen protagonist and does things differently.If these guys where the same,the shounen protagonist would have been stale by now.

I don't think he is saying they are the same character, but their personalities (the flashier aspects at least) fit in some pretty common tropes for shonen protagonists.

Also, you're speaking more about goals and motivations, which I don't think Blue22 is including so much in the discussion, since even Jon has goals and motivations too.

[king81992]

The way i see it naruto is basically a messianic figure,just like modern superman..That has incredible flaws.

Characters being messianic figures isn't a flaw. The flaw is writers being unwilling to play the messiah trope straight. Naruto worked because Kishimoto more or less played things straight. Superman's fallen on hard times because writers are more interested in deconstructing that particular archetype or find it outdated.

[king81992]

Yeah!i don't view him as an idiot at all.Especialy,now as an adult..Honestly,he never was..even as a kid.The kinda tactics and strategies he pulls in fights even as kid..Just look at the zabuza fight.. That's not an idiot..Look at superman,he trips over green rocks in comparison.

Adult Naruto is written as a man and not a manchild unlike Goku. His 'stupidity' as a kid was overblown by fans and the characters in the story.

[Blue22]

Inquisitiveness, impulsiveness, innocence, enthusiasm, etc...

Pretty much that. Real Jon didn't have much that you wouldn't normally find in your typical kid character. After reading through Tomasi's run and Super Sons again, you'll never hear me arguing that he was anything super deep or complex but he made up for it by having an actual presence in his stories. He was the fun, eager little kid without dipping into bratty or annoying territories like a lot of child characters typically did. I think the only time he really did come off like a brat was the little tantrum he threw in Bendis' run because his parents didn't want him going with Jor-El.

He had all the usual trappings of your typical kid character, but because there are so few of those in comics, it was alright. He was just a really fun, cute, energetic, simple character. And for what he was and the context of his story, that was okay. It becomes...less alright as he gets older because there are already a million other teen/ya heroes going through the same shit he goes through, but in ways that don't make them look as bland as a glue stick. Like....even if Bendis' run hadn't happened, and we never lost all those years of his life, it'd still suck to see that this is what he grows up into. It's the same as his DCeased counterpart, really (something else I was willing to forgive because of the context of the story). There were just...so many little quirks he's missing now because he's grown up and those little things REALLY add up into one big thing. Especially when they aren't replaced with anything....man I just said "thing" a lot. Basically, all the charm and soul of the character is gone and he's left doing nothing more than poorly copying his Dad.

Also, you're speaking more about goals and motivations, which I don't think Blue22 is including so much in the discussion, since even Jon has goals and motivations too.

^this^

Adult Naruto is written as a man and not a manchild unlike Goku. His 'stupidity' as a kid was overblown by fans and the characters in the story.

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie...Goku's actually dumber as an adult than he was as a kid. He's straight up senile by the time we've reached Super. By comparison, Naruto actually has gotten progressively smarter and more mature as he gets older. Even if he never really stops being a bit of a moron. Really for as much as I complain about characters like him, I think Kishimoto handled Naruto's character growth, from a child to an adult, almost flawlessly...ALMOST.

[Jackalope89]

Yeah. I get Goku is the central character of DB, with Vegeta now being a close second. But Future Trunks has LONG been my favorite of that franchise. And its not hard to see why.
Naruto, well, I stopped following it after I finished the original manga. It wasn't so much the series itself, but the ever increasing toxicity of the fandom that made it hard for me to get into the sequel.
One Piece, well. I'm more interested in the world lore itself than the characters. Not that most of the characters aren't good, I just want to see the "Will of D" solved.

As for Jon; even from what little I've read of fakeJon, his most defining character aspect, other than being more of a clone than Conner, is that he's bisexual. Which, by itself, wouldn't be an issue, but when there's practically nothing else to his personality, even after several years now, that's a big problem. The most personality fakeJon has had, was when Tomasi did that one shot of the Super Sons. And that's mind blowing, and not in a good way.

[OopsIdiditagain]

The problem with Jon's personality is that there's really not a definable personality to speak of that don't include traits that he has from his dad. He doesn't really have his own anything. His own archetype, his own style, his own character. He's one of the biggest blank slates I've ever read about, with only the occasional lip service about how pressured/scared he allegedly feels.

As much as I don't care for the basic shounen protagonist archetype (Naruto, Natsu, Luffy, Asta, Goku, Sora, like....almost every red ranger in Super Sentai) the last thing I can call any of them is bland. Overused, yes. Definitely wish we had less Narutos and Astas and more Dekus, Edwards, and Makas. But I'll take that over the bland lego brick that Jon is. He's like that unnecessary ninth main character they turned into the main focus of Digimon Tri.

Fucking Bella from Twilight is a better defined character than Jon right now. At least her actions back up the selfishness, immaturity, and mental instability that you read in her inner monologues (whether those traits were intentional on the author's part is a whole other can of worms lol). Jon will (VERY RARELY) tell you how he feels, but he doesn't really...show it. He says he doesn't want to be Superman, that he's still traumatized from what Bendis put him through, that he's (in general) struggling....But that's never really shown. And I honestly doubt it will be as long as Taylor's in full fanservice mode (Which is a problem he's been having in Nightwing too. And I actually like that book.). The little borderline Gary Stu is thriving right now and comes off like he enjoys every second of it.

That's been the problem with SoKE from the start. It takes Taylor's biggest weakness as a writer and cranks it up to 11 to try and make you love this character. It's all fluff and fanservice, with very little in the way of substance. His Nightwing has the exact same problem, but it's easier to get away with that with a long running and clearly defined character like Dick Grayson. We already know who he is. This was supposed to be the moment where we get to know who this new Jon is. But outside of being Superman's kid...he's nothing.

I just don't think Luffy and Naruto would be as interesting without the strawhats/konoha 11, they were like different sides of the same coin for the MC and made me appreciate them more.

But I agree we don't know how Jon feels that much. People make fun of twilight for being wish fulfillment but at least Bella had a life outside of being in love with Edward and all the vampire drama. If you took away Edward, Bella would still be the introverted teen who wants more for her life despite having loving friends/family. The closest we got to a glimpse of that for Jon was when his powers went overboard and he still couldn't solve every problem. SoKE's Jon so far has just been reacting to every problem that comes up, what kind of person is Jon when he's not trying to save the world? Who knows.