The Sassy Southern Brawler, Rogue (Anna Marie LeBeau) Appreciation 2022

[anyajenkins]

So on a different topic, I was scrolling through some of the previous pages and I saw Bobby’s World’s detailed post about the Indra arc in Legacy. And I have to say, I completely agree with you Bobby’s World. That arc annoyed me for several reason, another one being Indra needs to go home because of a family emergency and they go and bring a half dozen students and magneto and just roll up to indra’s dad house expecting to all crash on his sofa. And Indra’s da is the ‘bad guy’ because he’s like ‘what is magneto doing here?’ Seriously, it’s a family crisis, not a field trip, ya buncha moochers!

[ChronoRogue]

Yeah, that's my ranking as well. Tini obviously had plans from the get-go for Betsy, Rictor, and Apoc. Rogue's involvement seemed kind of half-baked but that's still more than than anything she had planned for Jubilee or Gambit. Heck, Shogo got more than either of them.

True.

I do have to wonder how much planning goes into these rosters when writers settle on a direction.

I mean for a magical exploration of Otherworld Gambit, Rogue and Jubilee probably wouldn't be my top picks either for fitting into the setting the most but... it'd still be possible to write story arcs that could develop them and 'mutant magic'.

Gambit has his ties to Thieves Guild and the Elixir of Life or Philosophers Stone. Even if you don't take that into account, as a thief I'm sure there's loads of rare bounty in Otherworld for him to target. (which would end up with him in trouble, but hey he's Gambit for a reason) It's sad because we did get an interaction between him and Candra during one of Excalibur's arcs, but it went nowhere. Lastly cards in general hold magic symbolism aplenty and while it's not tarot cards he's flinging around, I'm sure one could get creative with the theme.


wasted potential

Rogue has her experiences with the Farbanks, a ghostly and magical dimension. Not Otherworld true, but it could be used to kick something off with 'mutant magic'. Her mutant absorption powers in general have an associations with ghosts and death, which could easily tie into some sort of theme. Heck in AoX her nickname was Reaper.

the far banks seems to have a more amerindian folklore tint, but magic is magic

As for Jubilee, I think she'd be the hardest to tie into it, but in X-Men: Demon Days (2021) she is portrayed as a priestess or sorceress who uses fireworks to fight demons. Tini could have retroactively perhaps leaned into that.

aww, demon days jubilee was so cute

[BobbysWorld]

And if you wanted a dragon, just bring back established mutant dragon shapeshifters like Scaleface the Morlock, Evangeline Whedon the goth lawyer who shapeshifts at the sight of blood, or Freakshow, the Genoshan mutant who could turn into ANY otherworldly creature he could imagine. He would have been a great fit for Otherworld adventures, and any and all three of them are relatively blank slates who could benefit from being developed into pretty much any character direction Howard wanted for them. Unlike Shogo whose development is limited by the fact that he's a literal baby, and Jubilee, whose development is limited by the fact that its not actually HER doing the things Shogo is utilized for and she's mostly just shown protesting them having him do it but to no effect because the story is literally designed around the fact that no, they're gonna have Shogo do it.

(Damn, now I'm really bummed that Howard dragged Rogue and Gambit into this and tied them up for two years with barely anything to show for it, when Freakshow and Wicked are minor characters who would have been perfect fits for Otherworld....they're basically a ranger with monster shapeshifting powers and a necromancer with spirit-summoning powers. IDEAL for mutant magic stories).

[ChronoRogue]

And if you wanted a dragon, just bring back established mutant dragon shapeshifters like Scaleface the Morlock, Evangeline Whedon the goth lawyer who shapeshifts at the sight of blood, or Freakshow, the Genoshan mutant who could turn into ANY otherworldly creature he could imagine. He would have been a great fit for Otherworld adventures, and any and all three of them are relatively blank slates who could benefit from being developed into pretty much any character direction Howard wanted for them. Unlike Shogo whose development is limited by the fact that he's a literal baby, and Jubilee, whose development is limited by the fact that its not actually HER doing the things Shogo is utilized for and she's mostly just shown protesting them having him do it but to no effect because the story is literally designed around the fact that no, they're gonna have Shogo do it.

(Damn, now I'm really bummed that Howard dragged Rogue and Gambit into this and tied them up for two years with barely anything to show for it, when Freakshow and Wicked are minor characters who would have been perfect fits for Otherworld....they're basically a ranger with monster shapeshifting powers and a necromancer with spirit-summoning powers. IDEAL for mutant magic stories).

Pretty much.

I always suspected and still think the reason why she got those characters specifically was either a mandate to use them or knowing that recognizable characters would boost the longevity and sales of the book.

I mean you don't need established characters to sell if you write a good story as shown by Hellions, but it definitely does not hurt.

[Romy134]

Gambit has his ties to Thieves Guild and the Elixir of Life or Philosophers Stone. Even if you don't take that into account, as a thief I'm sure there's loads of rare bounty in Otherworld for him to target. (which would end up with him in trouble, but hey he's Gambit for a reason) It's sad because we did get an interaction between him and Candra during one of Excalibur's arcs, but it went nowhere. Lastly cards in general hold magic symbolism aplenty and while it's not tarot cards he's flinging around, I'm sure one could get creative with the theme.

Interesting. To me this was the only character ARC Remy had in the entire series, small as it was. Initially he was dead set against helping Apocalypse. Remy even mentioned that he didn't want to do anything to help Apoc achieve his goals. But when it mattered he gave it and did his part. It was small but it was something, I guess. Even Apoc acknowledged it after when he said that "One of our coven chose to do his part, see how the community can triumph over one."

As for the cards I really hope he is able to take these new abilities out into the real world, I would love that.

Lets just hope things improve with this new book.

[Malachi]

Pretty much.

I always suspected and still think the reason why she got those characters specifically was either a mandate to use them or knowing that recognizable characters would boost the longevity and sales of the book.

I mean you don't need established characters to sell if you write a good story as shown by Hellions, but it definitely does not hurt.

Tini said in a podcast that before the launch(Dawn of X or whatever post HoX/PoX was named) the writers who where going to write gathered at a retreat. At the table they where sitting cards with the characters names where placed. They then moved those around under the watchful eyes of Jordan White and Hickman. She said that Gambit and Rogue where picked because they are both energy manipulators and she thought she could do somethign with that and her exploration of mutant magic. Their pitches and stories also evolved during that metting just by everyone using each others as sounding boards and throwing out ideas. She wanted to let us know that there where no arrogance or pride and that everyone helped each other and there was a very good attitude. Tini's originally wanted to explore Apocalypse. Then they added Betsy because that was one of those topics(they had a list) that needed to be dealt with going forward. It evolved from that to a team.

When Duggan was pickign his roster for X-men he asked Tini if he could use Rogue and she couldn't find any reason not to let him have her. Witch meant that she was happy to help a coworker and also that there wheren't any ongoing plot with Rogue that would be affected.

[ChronoRogue]

Tini said in a podcast that before the launch(Dawn of X or whatever post HoX/PoX was named) the writers who where going to write gathered at a retreat. At the table they where sitting cards with the characters names where placed. They then moved those around under the watchful eyes of Jordan White and Hickman. She said that Gambit and Rogue where picked because they are both energy manipulators and she thought she could do somethign with that and her exploration of mutant magic. Their pitches and stories also evolved during that metting just by everyone using each others as sounding boards and throwing out ideas. She wanted to let us know that there where no arrogance or pride and that everyone helped each other and there was a very good attitude. Tini's originally wanted to explore Apocalypse. Then they added Betsy because that was one of those topics(they had a list) that needed to be dealt with going forward. It evolved from that to a team.

When Duggan was pickign his roster for X-men he asked Tini if he could use Rogue and she couldn't find any reason not to let him have her. Witch meant that she was happy to help a coworker and also that there wheren't any ongoing plot with Rogue that would be affected.

Sorry Malachi that just seems like a PR answer.

If she really had a plan for these characters, why did it never materialize in the book? I know what a writers says and what ends up on the page can be very different, but if she specifically chose them with that in mind, that seems extremely strange to just... never write that. Not with 20+ issues under her belt.

Though I am surprised that the implication was she chose Gambit and Rogue first, before Betsy and Apocalypse, if I'm understanding that right.

As for that last part, there was never an on-going plot with any character outside of Betsy and Rictor so that doesn't surprise me.

[DarkMagnus]

Seriously! This run has been a mess. Though I would love a Rogue vs Power Princess. Not gonna lie...

If Ends with Rogue sucking dry that WonderWoman wannabe. im on it

[BobbysWorld]

Sorry Malachi that just seems like a PR answer.

If she really had a plan for these characters, why did it never materialize in the book? I know what a writers says and what ends up on the page can be very different, but if she specifically chose them with that in mind, that seems extremely strange to just... never write that. Not with 20+ issues under her belt.

Though I am surprised that the implication was she chose Gambit and Rogue first, before Betsy and Apocalypse, if I'm understanding that right.

As for that last part, there was never an on-going plot with any character outside of Betsy and Rictor so that doesn't surprise me.

And the sad thing is, there's very few Betsy and Julio stans I know who actually even ENJOYED the focus Howard gave them. Lots of blithe, unapologetic imperialism from Betsy, flying from Howard's pen straight under the radar with zero examination of where it contained various Yikes elements begging to be unpacked. And Julio was regressed to the volatile, reckless hot-headedness that characterized him under previous writers leaning into not great Latino stereotypes, while the innuendo-laden 'so what exactly is going on with THOSE two, hmmm' dynamic he had with Apocalypse was a clear case of Literally Nobody Asked For This, Bring Back His Actual Boyfriend Plz, that ignored pretty much all of Julio's EXTENSIVE history with Apocalypse. (Its super annoying how much its been forgotten that Julio was very close with pretty much every character Apocalypse fucked over in his original debut in X-Factor. Like he was rescued, raised and trained by the 05 with the rest of the X-Terminators LONG before he ever joined up with Cable or X-Force. Warren, Caliban, Scott, Jean, hell, even baby Nathan. Julio used to BABYSIT Cable when he was a literal baby, before Cable's life got hijacked and thrown to hell by Apocalypse's actions).

But I digress. Point being its kinda tricky to say whether being ignored in Excalibur was better or worse for characters than being focused on in Excalibur, lol, and ain't that a fun takeaway for two plus years of storytelling.

[AppleJ]

And the sad thing is, there's very few Betsy and Julio stans I know who actually even ENJOYED the focus Howard gave them. Lots of blithe, unapologetic imperialism from Betsy, flying from Howard's pen straight under the radar with zero examination of where it contained various Yikes elements begging to be unpacked. And Julio was regressed to the volatile, reckless hot-headedness that characterized him under previous writers leaning into not great Latino stereotypes, while the innuendo-laden 'so what exactly is going on with THOSE two, hmmm' dynamic he had with Apocalypse was a clear case of Literally Nobody Asked For This, Bring Back His Actual Boyfriend Plz, that ignored pretty much all of Julio's EXTENSIVE history with Apocalypse. (Its super annoying how much its been forgotten that Julio was very close with pretty much every character Apocalypse fucked over in his original debut in X-Factor. Like he was rescued, raised and trained by the 05 with the rest of the X-Terminators LONG before he ever joined up with Cable or X-Force. Warren, Caliban, Scott, Jean, hell, even baby Nathan. Julio used to BABYSIT Cable when he was a literal baby, before Cable's life got hijacked and thrown to hell by Apocalypse's actions).

But I digress. Point being its kinda tricky to say whether being ignored in Excalibur was better or worse for characters than being focused on in Excalibur, lol, and ain't that a fun takeaway for two plus years of storytelling.

Yikes! Yeah, I really think most of the characters just felt wrong ... like is it possible that Tini just was not that well read on most of them going in? Maybe she still isn't?

She seems to have a basic caricature/archetype she's operating off, but generally just that? There's a total lack of feeling of their history. Because I concur, after the Shatterstar mini, then AoXM, I felt like we needed Rictor and Star to reunite not have this weird blind loyalty and obsession of Ric with Apocalypse. Why does he suddenly want to be a druid? Also the Jubilee of the recent GenX and AoXM books felt more developed than this version of Jubilee. And I kept waiting for her to mention what happened with Chamber. I won't even go off more than I have on how badly Gambit has been portrayed by her.

Rogue felt bizarrely cold towards Gambit and hyper focused on Betsy - which seems very incongruent with how she was written in MMX and even Astonishing and UA before that. Even back to X-Treme. Also there really was no effort made after the first arc to establish why any of the characters had a reason to continue serving in Excalibur. It just didn't make a lick of sense that any of them would care to serve Apocalypse or the British empire and not question their actions.

[Malachi]

Sorry Malachi that just seems like a PR answer.

If she really had a plan for these characters, why did it never materialize in the book? I know what a writers says and what ends up on the page can be very different, but if she specifically chose them with that in mind, that seems extremely strange to just... never write that. Not with 20+ issues under her belt.

Though I am surprised that the implication was she chose Gambit and Rogue first, before Betsy and Apocalypse, if I'm understanding that right.

As for that last part, there was never an on-going plot with any character outside of Betsy and Rictor so that doesn't surprise me.

Oh yes I take it all with a grain of salt. Probably closer to a barrel of salt. I just tried to summerize what she said.

Apocalypse was picked first. Then Betsy was added to the title. Then it became a team book and Rogue&Gambit was added next if my memory serves me right. After that Jubilee and then Rictor.

In this environment Jordan of course tries to get these bigger names attached to titles so they can maximize sold issues. If they impact the title or not he leaves up to the writer. That is the takeaway I got.

[BobbysWorld]

Yeah I don't keep meaning to steer this thread away from Rogue, lol, but instead of Rictor and instead of using Rogue and her energies to power the initial gate to Otherworld and leaving her in a flower coma for issues, why didn't Howard have Apocalypse draw upon any of the endless scores of his descendants, like Chamber and Blink who already have pre-existing connections to him we never actually saw explored WITH him, and whose powers would have been perfectly suited to explore mutant magic and teleportation/gate travel. Ah well.

[ChronoRogue]

It's gonna be so nice hearing Zann voice Rogue again.


I find it amusing how she managed to annoy Peter, considering how much he wise-cracks his own villains

None of the other VAs managed to capture how playful Rogue should be.

And the sad thing is, there's very few Betsy and Julio stans I know who actually even ENJOYED the focus Howard gave them. Lots of blithe, unapologetic imperialism from Betsy, flying from Howard's pen straight under the radar with zero examination of where it contained various Yikes elements begging to be unpacked. And Julio was regressed to the volatile, reckless hot-headedness that characterized him under previous writers leaning into not great Latino stereotypes, while the innuendo-laden 'so what exactly is going on with THOSE two, hmmm' dynamic he had with Apocalypse was a clear case of Literally Nobody Asked For This, Bring Back His Actual Boyfriend Plz, that ignored pretty much all of Julio's EXTENSIVE history with Apocalypse. (Its super annoying how much its been forgotten that Julio was very close with pretty much every character Apocalypse fucked over in his original debut in X-Factor. Like he was rescued, raised and trained by the 05 with the rest of the X-Terminators LONG before he ever joined up with Cable or X-Force. Warren, Caliban, Scott, Jean, hell, even baby Nathan. Julio used to BABYSIT Cable when he was a literal baby, before Cable's life got hijacked and thrown to hell by Apocalypse's actions).

But I digress. Point being its kinda tricky to say whether being ignored in Excalibur was better or worse for characters than being focused on in Excalibur, lol, and ain't that a fun takeaway for two plus years of storytelling.

That is true, I'm actually a fan of Rictor as well and despite the attention I agree that I did not enjoy his development either. He was insufferable with his lamentation of Apocalypse, a very much crying for the devil type situation. The druid magic is not the most interesting, but at least it sort of played into the Otherworld setting.

My head-cannon is that this is him almost hitting rock-bottom, not quite as bad as at the beginning of X-Factor but...

Oh yes I take it all with a grain of salt. Probably closer to a barrel of salt. I just tried to summerize what she said.

Apocalypse was picked first. Then Betsy was added to the title. Then it became a team book and Rogue&Gambit was added next if my memory serves me right. After that Jubilee and then Rictor.

In this environment Jordan of course tries to get these bigger names attached to titles so they can maximize sold issues. If they impact the title or not he leaves up to the writer. That is the takeaway I got.

Oh! I see then, sorry jumping the gun on that.

So it was intended as an Apocalypse/Betsy book? I think I remember reading about that vaguely and that would explain a lot.

And yea, agreed. I think they were focused on spreading names around but not too focused on what exactly the characters were doing unless Hickman had a clear plan for one of them in his main story arc. Unfortunately Rogue and Gambit were just not on his radar at all, to the extent of getting cut from scenes that involved people they were very close to. (rip the Destiny scene)

[seccruz]

tumblr_6a002aed20362b7cd05aaae121fa8d3a_a469a8ac_1280.jpg
Rogue for the new tabletop game Marvel Zombies. Art by Marco Chechetto.

[ChronoRogue]

I'm surprised she got spotlighted there, but appreciate it nonetheless.